Greater Pyro on a 15 sec CD on the last alpha

[froschhure]

cdr of pyro should be lowered to a variable cd with a stat scaling.

[Tyrannica]

You can't use the small open world interactions you had to justify game balance. The interactions you had while questing, or that one time you killed 2 DH at once and that one fire mage did that much damage..... It's so irrelevant.

Not what i wrote, it was instanced pvp isles, not wpvp and i faced 2 DHs and 1 WW, thats kinda an arena team, alone, as my team mates where on the other side of the map. And i died not a single time and they did die in fact 3 times as they tried over and over again to kill me without success.

For this they went completely offensive used all the cc they had and all possible offensive cds, even rain from above, but done by 2 DHs so imagine that kind of burst, when you are standing open field on an isle.

And yet you contintue to talk trash without knowing me at all...wow dude....who are you?

At the same day, tudesday, yesterday, i also did arena, that you think are so balanced, same situation same result. People get obliterated, because they cannot play, don't know how to play all the time, you see that quite often at low ratings and thats the place, where DH flames do have their roots, that and wpvp.

If you don't react to DHs most powerful cds, you deserve to die, period. If i do nothing when you open on me, i deserve to die, too. Why do people complain because they lack any kind of expierence how to play against DH?

You are another prime example of a bad player, who probably will be easily melted by any half competent DH in seconds, bye eye beam and rain from above alone.

Only those do really complain about DHs. Its ridiculous and its pathetic, and it needs to stop.

I am not defending DH as a class, DH should be redesigned, but, DHs can't be an excuse of bad players, whenever they see it fit and troll in forums.

I am coming from maining rogues, locks, druids and mages since TBC, all of these will burst you harder than a DH could and there is no special skill required to play, lets say an assassin rogue, fire mage or destro lock......are you kidding me?

They are much stronger than DHs, as a class, too. With way more arena 3s comps to play with and far better synergies. You talk about 3s arena, yet the DH is a very mediocre class here and does not belong to S Tier. Dude, how makes this sense? Do you play the same game or only read about it or watch some streams all day?

If DH is ridiculous as a class fantasy, or as easy to play like the old frost dk design back in mop and wod, is in fact, irrelevant.

People need tons of pvp expierence to survive against good players, no change and not even gear can change this fact, read my post more carefully, i had DH arena players with full decked 12/12 mythic raid gear, they were just not in the glad rankings, but merely at best duelist with current CR.

And they got outplayed, because of lack of xp, its that simple and happens all the time.

btw, its great, you bring up Tillerbartom, he made some excellent streams, maybe you should not just watch the DH ones, here are 2 of the most interesting videos i ever saw regarding pvp arena he playes with vastly undergeared toons and still school some noobs.




its an really excellent video, that underlines my point and the expierence i just made yesterday. You have all this OP gear from mythic raids and mythic+15, op corruptions, trinkets and essences, and in your delusional case even THE OP DH class, that need no attention to give good results, am i am right?

Yet, this is not how it works in pvp. All your arguments might work in favor of PvE, there i agree DH is a bit on the op side of things and easy to play, with no surviving problems. In PvP, real pvp, this is vastly different. Your awareness will determine the outcome, your xp will. Not your class and if you are as good as Tillerbartom, not even a huge gear difference will beat you.(which is really quite huge in 8.3.)

We should rather ask question like: what do you do, if a DH uses meta? What do you do, if he uses rain from above?

DH is easy to play and got op dmg is not the correct answer why you lose to them.

A better way to see true class power, are wargames not arena s3, that allready prooves by data alone that DH there are one of the mediocre classes, with just few synergies.

https://www.arenamate.net/?region=&r...r=3v3&faction=

Wouldn't say, place 10 as a class and 12 as the only spec in arena qualifies as OP class.


Wargames are better, did you ever watch dalaran wargames? 5vs5 1vs1? I doupt you did. Why DHs hardly ever win there? Most of the times its not a DH. Even with many DHs attending.

How is that?

Can you explain here in full detail, why DH is OP when in 3s he is mediocre at best and loses most of the wargames?

He is just good in skirmishes and 2s considering pvp, why is that a problem for you?

So, you think casting a greater pyro requires years of expierence and playing a DH, in a way that he can beat most other DHs, does not?

*lol*

Actually i play DH, because i got bored with wow bfa and its class design and tried the class i never played in legion and i also like the challenge against our arena overlords, Lock, Mage, Rogue. How does this sound like?

I will never get people like you, denying scientific data and logic and quickly jump to conclusions without knowing the full story or how even the DH class works.

I mean, DH is one of the most easiest class to counter, never i have seen a class that got so easily shut down by CC spam alone and still die in a kidney, to burst as they are squishy in stuns.

If you cannot comprehend this, you are either a bad player making excuses or try to defend spells like greater pyro.

[Wheeler]

Actually i play DH

After that giant wall of text defending a class with the best mobility the game has ever seen, high end damage, CC, leech, invulnerability, passive elite cleave, MS with shadowlands, ALL ON 3-4 BUTTONS...

...Consider me shocked you end up playing a DH.

The problem is that they're designed too well. Their abilities simply do too many different things for one button press. Leech/Cleave/DPS on one button is disrespectful to the rest of the playerbase having to manage 3x as many buttons in high-pressure situations.

[Delirus]

As a fire only mage I'm ok with this change. Yeah of coure it was fun killing dhs in the air with 3 gps, but otherwise it wasn't fun gameplay. Personally I don't use gp that often, but I don't play arena anymore so...

[Tyrannica]

After that giant wall of text defending a class with the best mobility the game has ever seen, high end damage, CC, leech, invulnerability, passive elite cleave, MS with shadowlands, ALL ON 3-4 BUTTONS...

...Consider me shocked you end up playing a DH.

The problem is that they're designed too well. Their abilities simply do too many different things for one button press. Leech/Cleave/DPS on one button is disrespectful to the rest of the playerbase having to manage 3x as many buttons in high-pressure situations.

You forgot the 100% dodge on 1 button, so its leech/cleave/dps/100%dodge - you're welcome.
The CC has cds timers unlike our cc spam overlords mage and lock.
Invulnerability - you mean the meta animation? I hope you don't mean netherwalk, prolly the worst talent i have ever seen, there is a reasion nobdoy takes it.
MS would open up more comps for the DH and would be most welcome, but its not set in stone, as this is just Alpha based.

I play 4 active mains in total, but only 2 of them have 470+ gear and good corruptions, couldn't afford more time doing pve to gear them and arenas.

As said before, i was bored with class design in bfa and DH was the only class left i ever played as a main, so i was shocked, how overrated this class is, it still comes down, if you have good xp, if you do well with this class in pvp.

But its all true considering raids and mythic+, they are easy to play there and give always good dps and cheese some mechanics, but as i am coming from playing rogues as mains since tbc, i was not too impressed by that. Not by a long shot.

DH design is garbage i did never deny that, but most class design is garbage in bfa. In the case of the DH blizz could have reward active talents more than passive ones, but they didn't, so you end up naturally with fewer buttons to press.

Doesn't change the fact, that you have react correctly to each situation in pvp, have correct positioning and cd managment and observe cds of your opponents. Its something most other people do not. In that case, yeah, playing any hero class is the best option.

Before, DH was attacked for shallow class design and 3 buttons to press, it was the FDK that got that honor. In the end, only results counts, and just look at arenamate data.

I am not argueing here, that DH have few buttons to press, but stating they are more op than pyro mages, is just noise of some noobs that got probably schooled by any average DH.

Hating a class, is no reasion to spread missinformation and thats the bottom line.

Greater Pyro, while fun in a silly way, shouldn't simply exist, instead huge % spells like that should be removed, and spells like fireball and normal pyro buffed. Talents like Blast Wave, should work like back in TBC and push melees to the corner of a screen.

There are other means to make a class strong than adding goofy talents to the game, like using greater pyro in some bgs, where this spell is really a problem, while in greens and still see profit, like other classes do in BIS gear.

nothing is as strong as greater pyro in a bg, you can use this on a naked char, and still do most dmg done, if you are the only fire mage, if you have some gear, haste will reduce the cast time somewhat and the best part is, this is spamable.

When i am on my mage abusing greater pyros(not arena) to 1 shot all kinds of stuff, i am also annoyed by the slow traveltime of that spell, so i slowly switched back to destro lock. We have such a fast paced meta in 8.3, yet this spell has the slowest animation of all of them, so its hard to imagine how this spell could be a success story in arenas, hope, people can push at least a def cd in like 2 seconds, if they do not LOS it. Try that with 5 mages in bgs all casting gpyro in the open field and its strictly impossible to deny the absurdness of this spell.

Why even mention tame things like DHs? just sheep and cast gpyro. Works best when DH uses rain from above, i like how mages are able to remove dhs burst and instant kill him all at once, if DH makes a mistake, he will get gutted like every oher class in the game. Period.

[Delirus]

Greater Pyro, while fun in a silly way, shouldn't simply exist, instead huge % spells like that should be removed, and spells like fireball and normal pyro buffed. Talents like Blast Wave, should work like back in TBC and push melees to the corner of a screen.

This sounds like a good trade off, so it propably won't come to the game
Especially Blast Wave thing is so useless right now in it's position in the talent tree.

[razorpax]

I never asked for it...but it seems to be happening in shadowlands...for some reason.
And because im paranoid...is probably because we are doing less damage now

- - - Updated - - -



- - - Updated - - -

Just in.
This is priceless

who is he and why am i seeing his logo as a strange logo similar to ninjas...for a second i thought it was ninja in the thumbnail

[Tyrannica]

This sounds like a good trade off, so it propably won't come to the game
Especially Blast Wave thing is so useless right now in it's position in the talent tree.

I tried Blast Wave several times on my mage and was surprised it had almost no noticeable knockback effect currently in BfA, last time i used this was indeed tbc where it had a knockback like todays elemental shamans' thunderstorm.

And fireball and frostbolt should do like 500% more dmg, to be actually useful dealing dmg on its own, Xaryu's own words.

[Wheeler]

Why even mention tame things like DHs? just sheep and cast gpyro. Works best when DH uses rain from above, i like how mages are able to remove dhs burst and instant kill him all at once, if DH makes a mistake, he will get gutted like every oher class in the game. Period.

What are you doing to eat 2 GPY in a row? Do you have an issue with Chaos Bolt too?

And on top of the meta IFrames, turns out there's a pesky Iframe or two with RFA as well. Pairs well with the 100% BD dodge, short CD blur, and Darkness - And the leech. Can't forget the leech.

Yes, GPY needs to go. Won't matter much - no one's playing fire in Shadowlands.

[DechCJC]

-Snip-.

I think the more important point isn’t how OP they are, but how annoying they are. I consider myself a decent pvper, I’m a multi glad disc priest and have 2200+ on multiple classes, but I hate fighting against even 1800 demon hunters. Not because they’re OP, but because a 1800 DH is more or less the same threat to me as a 2400 DH.

They’re exhausting and have way too many tools, even if they’re not ‘OP’ (though id go as far as to say high rated 3v3 is literally the only place they don’t flourish as much). Sure, there may be a decent skill cap, but it’s not far enough from the floor to make it matter enough. They’re just annoying and nobody likes fighting them. Abilities like mana burn that have literally zero counter have no place in the game.

As for gpy, it only makes a difference in bgs and world pvp, it’s already useless in high rated 3s most of the time unless playing MLD (which I agree is quite cancerous). It’s also good in rogue/mage 2v2/1v1 where it’s possible to resap or ROF as the gpy hits for a second one, but I don’t see how that’s relevant as it hardly makes or breaks the comp.

The removal of 2 charge shimmer, temp shield, gpy and various essences/azerite perks are going to leave mages in a very bad place in rated PvP come shadowlands unless further abilities are added.

[Big Thanks]

who is he and why am i seeing his logo as a strange logo similar to ninjas...for a second i thought it was ninja in the thumbnail

He is a very skilled mage player with high rating youtuber.
Very famous in that regard

[Sharby]

Why are people acting like we have to choose between nerfing Fire Mage or DH when both can and should get put in the basement for at least a patch or two.

Also tyring to say that classes should be balanced pvp-wise around the highest echelon of PvP, which is even more niche than mythic raiding is quite silly. The issue is that DH's/Fire Mages pubstomp way too hard. The only classes that come even close to them are Assassination Rogue and Destro Lock, both of these at least have more exploitable weaknesses.


People are so used to mage being competitive in PvP that when it seems like it won't be suddenly the sky is falling, welcome to most other DPS lol.

[Sithalos]

Should be a 30 second CD, imo.

[exochaft]

Been a while since I've done some high level RBG's, but it wasn't uncommon to run into groups with 3 fire mages (or more in some cases) specifically because of gpyro, launching them into high priority targets or split cleaving pressure. Chances are at least one or more of the mages is going to get away with free casting, especially with a team that can peel/protect/CC well. However, this was before corruptions, so I can only imagine the fiasco RBGs are now.

In general, I don't think abilities that are %HP based in terms of damage done (such as Twilight Dev corruptions) end up out of control after a certain point going by Blizz's track record with keeping abilities in line. While it's an interesting concept, I'd be much more in favor of restrictions on such abilities to keep them under control. A longer CD is a step in the right direction when it comes to gpyro, and I hope more changes outside of this come down the line for PvP... although I'm not optimistic that things will be balanced well in the end, because it always goes out of control.

[Tyrannica]

What are you doing to eat 2 GPY in a row? Do you have an issue with Chaos Bolt too?

And on top of the meta IFrames, turns out there's a pesky Iframe or two with RFA as well. Pairs well with the 100% BD dodge, short CD blur, and Darkness - And the leech. Can't forget the leech.

Yes, GPY needs to go. Won't matter much - no one's playing fire in Shadowlands.

Leech does not matter in 3s, RMX has access to MS, its the dominating comp.

I don't have issues with gpy and chaos bolt, but you can melt most DHs with those spells quite easy in bgs or if you play RMX in arenas.

That was written from my Mage PoV, i do not strictly play 1 class.

It certainly is not the class thats op, its that spell that is broken, in several situations this spell makes no sense. BGs, low gear, yet that % dmg, and so on. I do not like a 15 sec cd on GPyro i prefere it to be removed and other fire mage spells buffed, that slow moving gpyro does not make much sense with the fast playstyle of a fire mage.

Its a broken spell and it also feels broken when you use it as a fire mage, better buff the knockback and dmg of blast wave and make it a basic ability to use.

Really those BfA class designer did as much wrong as they possibly could.

- - - Updated - - -

I think the more important point isn’t how OP they are, but how annoying they are. I consider myself a decent pvper, I’m a multi glad disc priest and have 2200+ on multiple classes, but I hate fighting against even 1800 demon hunters. Not because they’re OP, but because a 1800 DH is more or less the same threat to me as a 2400 DH.

They’re exhausting and have way too many tools, even if they’re not ‘OP’ (though id go as far as to say high rated 3v3 is literally the only place they don’t flourish as much). Sure, there may be a decent skill cap, but it’s not far enough from the floor to make it matter enough. They’re just annoying and nobody likes fighting them. Abilities like mana burn that have literally zero counter have no place in the game.

As for gpy, it only makes a difference in bgs and world pvp, it’s already useless in high rated 3s most of the time unless playing MLD (which I agree is quite cancerous). It’s also good in rogue/mage 2v2/1v1 where it’s possible to resap or ROF as the gpy hits for a second one, but I don’t see how that’s relevant as it hardly makes or breaks the comp.

The removal of 2 charge shimmer, temp shield, gpy and various essences/azerite perks are going to leave mages in a very bad place in rated PvP come shadowlands unless further abilities are added.

It isn't even fun to play with mana burn and its not easy to use either, after the nerf it got in early BfA, litteraly anyone can move out of and needs preperation, like a vengeful retreat to slow the healer so he cannot move out of it or to use it in meta with more haste and still use a stun or prison with weak aura.

Range reduced to almost melee range and high 50 fury cost(half my fury bar).

I wouldn't be sad, if that one gets removed or got a redesign, but complains about post nerf mana burn are a bit hard to understand, it was so much better and easier to apply in early BfA.

Its like a S4 TBC rdruid, known to be immortal, who never goes oom, would complain about mana drain, which was far easier to use, without any resources to pool and long range and no cd, who could still switch in bear form and prevent mana drains.

People are just annoyed about the whole package a DH gets, while the the vast majority of the classes remain pruned and nerfed. I could fill pages here, of each class that lost abilties and talents over the last decade and it does not look likely SL is bringing them all back.

My stand actually is, to unprune important abilities that were used in pvp arena back in the days, like mana drain(warlock) or mana burn(priest) to stress healers even more, but also to redesign many dds, to allow more pure dd comps and not just RM or Ret/X.

A lot of things are exhausting not just DHs, like healers with too much CC. This needs to go. They should have strong heals, maybe shorter dispel cds, tough to kill, but not an arsenal of cc and on top of this deal mini burst in some cases, that wasn't the original arena design at all, same goes for hybrid classes.

Of course, pure dds shouldn't heal, if its not an affliction lock.

Can't wait for the TBC relaunch, i just fundamentally disagree with class and pvp design in modern wow, its really really not enjoyable, the way how its balanced and how gearing works.

Don't think i will contintue to play a mage in early SL, seems blizz is shafting the class, just to buff it in later patches - original blizz design as usual.

Might be back to rogue or rather unholy dk.

And certainly not DH, that was boring enough to play for 1 expansion.

[Luxeley]

Really?

I killed 2 dhs + 1 ww monk alone 3x times in a row and no rest with my demon hunter(all dh havoc) without any support in pvp isles. I had slightly better gear, but they were not under geared, were around 450+.

Last night in uldum I faced a DH and an arcane mage, both had gear, and guess who managed to do way more dmg and burst in a short amount of time with little effort?

Later during the night a challenger DH, with 12/12 mythic Nyalotha raid clear, who might have pretty much the same gear as me(checked arsenal) brought my DH in a surprise attack while I was doing a quest down to 1/3 my hp, that was some nice "pve dragons layer" burst, but he also died, due to mismanagement of his cds and probably less experience in mirror matches.

So the bottom line is as always, either you are good, or not, not even a BiS geared DH or multiple DHs can change that fact, it only comes down to your own experience, who will prevail and who will be dust.

Or how do you explain those outcomes of dh mirror matches? Believe it or not even with just a few buttons to push, there is still a lot of room for missplay, like if you don't time your cds correctly and just blow them out, with no awareness what's happening around you whatsoever.

If, something is op right now its corruption or Burst trinket, but hardly a class, an argument could be made about certain heal specs and assassin rogues and destro locks, but I would rather say, most classes are just too weak, look at their huge nerf paragraphs? In MoP and WoD many more classes and specs were strong and viable. Legion was not real with the templates, BfA is legion design without templates, unnerfed burst trinkets and shallow class design with huge pruning and nerfs to various classes, who knows what class you play, if you complain about DHs, couldn't be the top dogs of BfA.

Good or bad has nothing to do with it. Gear and class make up is everything. You don't mention your I-lvl nor do you mention your corruption gear. What does "slightly" better mean? 20 i-lvls? 20 I-lvls is a huge difference. You don't mention what class you play and you're talking about essentially ganking players while they're killing mobs.

In my book, if a class sports great burst, great defenses and self healing and extreme mobility they're OP. Meta's up time is way north of 50% which means their burst window and passive healing is huge. Add in great mobility and you've got the most OP class in the game.

Exceptions exist in every aspect of the game and maybe you're just the amazing at whatever class you play (probably DH). I find your response suspect because you boast like a school kid and don't even mention what class you play.

[locketto]

15 secs isn't too much? The can basically easly kick every cast.

[Tyrannica]

Good or bad has nothing to do with it. Gear and class make up is everything. You don't mention your I-lvl nor do you mention your corruption gear. What does "slightly" better mean? 20 i-lvls? 20 I-lvls is a huge difference. You don't mention what class you play and you're talking about essentially ganking players while they're killing mobs.

In my book, if a class sports great burst, great defenses and self healing and extreme mobility they're OP. Meta's up time is way north of 50% which means their burst window and passive healing is huge. Add in great mobility and you've got the most OP class in the game.

Exceptions exist in every aspect of the game and maybe you're just the amazing at whatever class you play (probably DH). I find your response suspect because you boast like a school kid and don't even mention what class you play.

*lol*

At least do quote me and not just make up things out of nowhere i never wrote?

First i did not gank anyone, it was pvp isles you know what this is? Do you play BfA? Its a new feature.

Secondly, i mentioned all classes i did play, in that case with the 2 DHs and 1 ww monk that tried to gank me, i was a DH ilvl 474, and they were ilvl 470+ i arsenaled them 1 dh of them had 12/12 mythic nyalotha clear and both were duelist rank in arenas. But the ww monk was probably just 450+. I had 2 gushing wounds, and some other dps corruptions. But they did not die to my damage, they died due to missmanagment of cds, simply outplay. You don't burst all your offensives into darkness, right? just baited that RoP out before i used Darkness. Stuff like this. Horrible stuff.

Would love to go back to my old Rdruid and clone/root any DH into a DC, i bet, that would be fun, too. Actually there are some prominent streamers doing this all the time in arenas.

Anways, you tell me, HOW, DHs are op, when my DH killed 2 of them(+Monk, but he is not important) SOLO, 3 times in a row, while they had the first hit on me, equal gear and corruptions(mythic raiders, multiple 15+ clear, duelist rank).

How are DHs op, when they can be countered so easily by their own class or any class with hard cc and burst. I would love to see some hard proof of that.

When all i see is, the best player wins. Maybe it counts something, when you pvped since TBC. So many streamers proof this. They go undergeared with green essences and gear into 2s arenas and school some noobs with 500k+ hp.

What class you play does not matter at all. Personally, i think DH is far from beeing S Tier, outside of 2s. Everytime i play him, i miss stealth of my druid or rogue, or i miss more range cc from my mage/lock. Stuff that really counts in pvp. Not some 100% dodge spam dmg and mini burst with meta/rain from above. Those are nice in wild skirmishes, but thats about it. Other than a DK gripping a target into my rain from above, i see not as much synyergies in arena combs as with my other classes i play. And indivudally they feel stronger, too in dueling people.

Really people whats so hard in CC spam Meta? Maybe use your cc and stop trying to outdmg a DH. Stop complaining and get gut. lol

Thats my last reply on this topic, cause we all know at this point its just trolling for giggles, like:

DHs have wings, elf and double jump its disgusting we all know that, but makes you not op in rated pvp. Also love comments of the leech, most of its is overheal, and in now way efficient selfheal. If i want a good dd that heals, i take a DK or WW, that heals on point, where it counts.

Stuff like this are only possible, because people played too much PvE in BfA, forget what cc is and try to outdamage each other without any thinking process given.

[Luxeley]

Yes pvp isles are like world pvp, my point is 100% valid. The fact you prevailed in a 1 vs 3 against 2 DHs is a pathetic argument, especially when you're a DH. There's no doubt in my mind you ambushed them while killing mobs and they probably didn't have their offensive or defensive CDs available. It's an impressive feat, I'll give you that to further bloat your ego. But, the fact is, you play a DH, you ambushed them while killing mobs and I seriously doubt they were equally geared.

The class you play 100% does matter, otherwise you don't make the Resto Druid comment you made. So you're a bad faith arguer there. Here's what I think, I think you can't admit DHs are OP and gear matters because you want to believe it's 100% skill.

[DechCJC]

-Snip-

I mean fair enough, but I strongly disagree on mana rift. Whether or not it’s hard to land is subjective (I don’t personally think it’s overly difficult, at least in 2s where it shines the most - past 1800 all DH’s will land pretty much all mana rifts, it’s not hard to setup), but the fact that there’s no counter play or cost is the issue. As a priest, even if I play relentless I can’t avoid it; that’s bad game design.

Mana burn in the past was removed because it was annoying gameplay, but even then it had far more drawbacks than today’s rift.

- it had a cast time
- it oomed the priest just as much to cast it
- the priest had to stop healing to cast it
- it could be line of sighted
- it could be interrupted

Mana rift can not be countered unless a third party CCs the DH every time they believe they’re going to go for it, which obviously isn’t realistic or reliable. There’s nothing that the healer can do and there’s very little that the DH loses to use it, they’re not punished for overextending as they have a plethora of defensives as well.

It’s not about it being OP, it’s about there being literally no counter play and an annoying mechanic that removes the need for skilful play and instead relies on just pressing a button every 15 seconds.

I can understand the removal of GPY, but abilities like mana rift deserve to be tweaked or removed just as much, if not more.