Datamined race intros shows Blizz set on whitewashing Horde.

[deenman]

I mean, it's easy to compare the 2 but there's no point because Alliance fans literally don't care.

well im sure the aliance fans would care if there was anything even remotely close to compare

[TheRevenantHero]

Actually, yes. It was even a quest location. Not to forget that the commanding general there actually allowed civilians to escape and the only people killed where those actually fighting against the Alliance. Afterwards the Alliance actually imprisons war criminals who pillage the village.



It is actually going on during the formation of the Horde and therefore a Horde action.



They attacked to destroy Stormwind as a nation, as proven by them slaughtering anyone remaining in the city. They forced the citizens of Stormwind to leave their homeland, counting as displacement.



They fought to destroy the Alliance Kingdoms in their entirety.



After a prominent Member of the Zanchuli Council with the consent of Rastakhan declared war on the Alliance. The Zandalari actually started aggressions during Cataclysm. Which means even if they were not a member of the Horde at that point, they were a hostile nation. Not to forget that there is no indication of the Alliance harming civilians and then backing off to prevent further bloodshed among the Zandalari, something the Horde never considered.



Facts don't care about your feelings, it was a genocide as it resulted in the permanent destruction of the Nation of Theramore and therefore its people as a national group. It is a genocide.



The Iron Hordes crimes go on the Horde as they joined the Horde.



It is canonically even described as a genocide. So it is a genocide. Not to forget that Sylvanas bombed the tree with the deliberate intention to slaughter its inhabitants, wipe out the majority of the Night elf race and destroy Darnassus as a nation. The fact alone that Darnassus as a nation was destroyed and most of its citizens were slaughtered makes it a genocide.





Actually, considering the Hordes consistent style of warfare, most of their wars count at least as genocidal as they always fight with the intent of destroying the opposed group. The alliance hands are clean in comparison.

Which is actually a problem and not something that I will defend. The fact that the Alliance is clean and barely ever commits any similar crimes as the Horde does is a hugh narrative problem, as it forces the Horde in a criminal villain role in which people who would enjoy to play a more heroic Horde character feel pressured to defend their faction to uphold their faction fantasy while the Alliance constantly feels like losing and getting the shorter stick at the end of any faction war, because there is never any sense of consequences for the Horde and it always feels like the Alliance are the ones supposed to be slaughtered and humiliated and the Horde is forgiven and gets away afterwards, while the Horde is dissatisfied with losing their leaders and officially losing the wars as well. This is a problem which actually decreases the enjoyment for most members of both factions. The only ones enjoying it are those who want to play as pure villains and the Alliance players who are not that into factions and don't really care about what happens to other races as long as there is peace afterwards.

Blizz should make both factions equally bad and responsible for bloodshed. This would also make the end of faction wars more satisfying, as it would have more of a feel of ending the circle of violence once again instead of one side feeling treated as a villain and one side feeling like engaging in appeasement and giving up on Justice.

Only Theramore Isle was attacked and destroyed. The Kingdom of Theramore as a whole was NOT wiped out. The Horde essentially bombed the Alliance's Pearl Harbor.

Camp Taurajo has numerous dead NPCs in it that are actually still burning in the quests you do there. So yeah, the Alliance said they could leave but they definitely didn't wait until they destroyed the village.

The draenei genocide was still happening but the Horde and Thrall had begun fighting AGAINST it. The felblood orcs were guilty of the genocide but the Horde was not.

Stormwind was temporarily displaced. They were able to fight back and retake their capital so I'm not sure I would consider that a genocide. If we're calling that a genocide then the Alliance is responsible for the genocide of the quel'dorei people when they refused to send aid to Silvermoon when Arthas attacked.

The Alliance has also been fighting to eradicate the Horde on both Kalimdor and the EK. Both the Horde and Alliance are guilty of that.

The Iron Horde absolutely did not join the Horde as a whole. The mag'har did join the Horde, but they are a branch of orcs from 30 years in the future on Draenor. The Iron Horde was dismantled and never actually joined the present day Horde.

Sylvanas' reasoning for lighting the tree on fire was to break the Alliance's hope. It didn't work but her goal wasn't to wipe out the entirety of the Kaldorei as a people. If that was her goal then she wouldn't have stopped there. She would have moved to all other Kaldorei cities and villages then burned them down too. I'm not excusing the burning of Teldrassil as it was a horrific action. I'm merely pointing out that the goal of it wasn't genocide.

[TheFirstOnes]

These are post BFA races. Them being "freedom fighters" is perfectly relevant to the lore rn.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I remember when I joked about how blizzard writers aren't mature enough to stick to their guns when it comes to writing bad things, but this actually made me snort laugh because it's such a stupid pathetic attempt at re-writing in game history. Can't wait for some new player to go "I protect the living!!" then come across the quest where he gets to bash human heads in with a shovel.

[TheRevenantHero]

well im sure the aliance fans would care if there was anything even remotely close to compare

I've compared the two numerous times in the past. Alliance fans just shrug and either say the Horde deserved it or say it's 100% justified no matter how evil the act is.

[Rend Blackhand]

I remember when I joked about how blizzard writers aren't mature enough to stick to their guns when it comes to writing bad things, but this actually made me snort laugh because it's such a stupid pathetic attempt at re-writing in game history. Can't wait for some new player to go "I protect the living!!" then come across the quest where he gets to bash human heads in with a shovel.

Not gonna lie, that quest was fucking hilarious.

[Oneirophobia]

I remember when I joked about how blizzard writers aren't mature enough to stick to their guns when it comes to writing bad things, but this actually made me snort laugh because it's such a stupid pathetic attempt at re-writing in game history. Can't wait for some new player to go "I protect the living!!" then come across the quest where he gets to bash human heads in with a shovel.

It's very confusing. I mean, sure, there are different forsaken and I'm sure some of them want to use their undeath to preserve life, but they likely don't share that with their kin...

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Thing is that there's no sense of scale with alliance fanboys. All of the bad stuff Orcs did has been in a timespan of less than forty years. Humans have been genociding Trolls for centuries just as a single example.

your absolutely right you have no sense of scale. what humans as a race did is is irrelevant as every human who took part in said troll genocide is dead while there are still orcs/undead who took part in the multiple horde genocide's around in the horde.

[EbaumsTipster]

Not gonna lie, that quest was fucking hilarious.

That quest was, and is, great.

But it's a different time and if Blizzard is scared shitless of releasing quests like that, I don't blame them considering the awful social climate. They will just implement new Forsaken quests that are much more squeaky clean than that.

[TheRevenantHero]

your absolutely right you have no sense of scale. what humans as a race did is is irrelevant as every human who took part in said troll genocide is dead while there are still orcs/undead who took part in the multiple horde genocide's around in the horde.

And this is what I mean. Alliance fans will always justify the Alliance's atrocities lol.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Going by what needs to be done for it to qualify as genocide, the Horde actually hasn't committed genocide. Just mass murder. Not saying their hands are clean by the Alliance has done a lot of heinous things too.

you can keep telling your self that but it doesn't make it true even the canon state of the lore is that they have had multiple genocides or attempted genocides.

[Firefall]

the forsaken change is the most egregious, like what the actual fck blizzard? "beware the living" are now "protect the living" -_- let's just ignore entire forsaken actions, history and culture to make them "heroes".... calia is going to end up as their leader isn't she, jfc :/

also nice, have sylvanus committ a genocide on the night elves and then just ignore it and act like it didn't happen:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...ab1287cceb.png


yup, pretty much... kek stuff danuser, kek stuff~

also ignore whenever a forsaken says "beware the living" since beware = protect now. Also ignore all the stuff forsaken do,, it's all just harmless "protection" experiments and the plague is this nice gas that heals the land

I mean in fairness the Forsaken have saved the living several times now in some pretty big ways in both the first and second Sourge invasion. Their break away from the Lich King was instrumental to the events that led to his war failing the first time, and then in Wrath of the Lich King's prepatch even some of the most evil among the Forsaken, the same royal apothecary society members behind the later Wrathgate event, created and freely gave away a cure to the new plague that had been unleashed to the Horde and the Alliance--I don't think it was even a risk to them, just the living. The wording is still too heroic when they should still be skeptical of the living because they hate undead for looking gross, but you can't deny that the Forsaken are heroic.

And yes that really did happen if you weren't playing back in BC, read the BC section: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Grand_Apothecary_Putress

The Forsaken may be the only race that has ever been solely responsible for preventing every living thing from dying, without the help of any other race, thanks to the second invasion.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And this is what I mean. Alliance fans will always justify the Alliance's atrocities lol.

you don't know what a justification is do you? no where in my post do i make any arguments as to why killing the trolls is an ok thing to do. you can try and blame some one totally uninvolved in a murder but tis never gonna stick.

[TheRevenantHero]

you don't know what a justification is do you? no where in my post do i make any arguments as to why killing the trolls is an ok thing to do. you can try and blame some one totally uninvolved in murder but tis never gonna stick.

The Alliance genocided trolls and quel'dorei. Yet any time it's brought up people either say they deserved it or "That was Garithos! He acted alone!"

[deenman]

I've compared the two numerous times in the past. Alliance fans just shrug and either say the Horde deserved it or say it's 100% justified no matter how evil the act is.

Played horde most my life,care to sprinkle some examples?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The Alliance genocided trolls and quel'dorei. Yet any time it's brought up people either say they deserved it or "That was Garithos! He acted alone!"

odd I didn't bring up either of those points its almost like your fighting a strawman.

[Rend Blackhand]

The Alliance genocided trolls and quel'dorei. Yet any time it's brought up people either say they deserved it or "That was Garithos! He acted alone!"

It's crazy, man. Think about Danath Trollbane, his whole family is named after killing another race. Imagine if you had a dude in Germany called Hans Jewkiller.

[Jastall]

The only eyebrow-raising one is the Forsaken. The description doesn't have to go on about them being a bunch of baby eating mad scientists until recently, but "work tirelessly to defend the living"? Like, c'mon now. Even at their best the Forsaken aren't and shouldn't be Draenei-tier saints.

Positioning the Horde as a faction valuing freedom is fine by me, to be honest. It's a better ideal than either being walking, talking honor memes or Fantasy Hitler's obedient little stromtroopers.

[Firefall]

The only eyebrow-raising one is the Forsaken. The description doesn't have to go on about them being a bunch of baby eating mad scientists until recently, but "work tirelessly to defend the living"? Like, c'mon now. Even at their best the Forsaken aren't and shouldn't be Draenei-tier saints.

Positioning the Horde as a faction valuing freedom is fine by me, to be honest. It's a better ideal than either being walking, talking honor memes or Fantasy Hitler's obedient little stromtroopers.

At their best those same evil mad scientist Forsaken (who are no longer part of the Forsaken since late Wrath) created a cure to the second Scourge plague and gave it away for free to the Horde and the Alliance at the end of Burning Crusade. They are evil, yes. But heroic.

[Aucald]

The thread is not about genocide, or even the faction conflict. Return to the actual topic at hand as opposed to these derailing tangents.