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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonhead View Post
    Why are you asking what are we willing to 'give up' to get basic quality of life changes to the spec(s)? Fine, I give up the 3 min CD for Infernal for even spread chaos bolt damage baked into the spell itself and not feel OMGAWDPOWER between 3 min windows. I would like the PvP talent (Focused Chaos) to be changed to 30% and baked into the class itself and am willing to give up the fact it cannot benefit from havoc (since that is the way the PvP talent operates). I would like Shadowburn execute to be brought back the way it was in MoP and am willing to give up...nothing. That should be baseline...sorry. I would like to have a better AoE spread mechanic and would like cataclysm be baseline and give up immolate damage.

    I don't know why you are even asking what we are willing to give up. We literally have gotten NOTHING of note from Legion to BfA. We LOST tons of utility when our artifact weapon was tossed to the side. Would it be that hard for us to have Channel Demonfire replaced with Dimensional Rift? Or how about Unending Resolve dropped down to 1.5m instead of 3 minutes? Shit, even 2 minutes. Having a DCD on a 3m CD is ridiculous (especially since it's not even 100% damage reduction, just 40%, and ya it also makes us immune to interrupt / silence, make some tweaks reduce it's duration but on a 3m CD it's stupid). We finally got Demonic Circle baseline in Shadowlands, about damn time. Remember when we had Death Coil (oh wait, DKs stole that, "MORTAL COIL' now) baseline? That would be nice. Howl of Terror was also baseline at one point and we lost that too with nothing in return. Shadowfury for some reason has a cast time and can't be made insta for reasons.

    I am not saying that there shouldn't be a middle-ground and while I can respect the fact that enh shamans got as royally fucked as warlocks, the fact is they are a hybrid class and we are pure (yes, I went there) and they can heal as resto or dps as ele also. All we have is DPS and when that power is being removed and our freedom of the specs is being encroached on with nothing in sight as compensation I do not really see why we need to give up anything. We have already given up so much, to ask us what we want to give up now to get basic QoL changes or some freeform to the spec is frankly a little irritating as this class is but a shadow of what it once was with all our bells and whistles. Being good in PvP doesn't change the fact that some serious modifications need to happen to make the class feel smooth and not clunky inbetween Infernal / Darkglare windows. Demo is just a hot mess.

    To your point about Demonic Gateway...all I can do is laugh. If the only reason warlocks are brought is for a gimmicky spell like that and not for their actual damage / class abilities that they can offer (and 2 are needed to have dual gateways on both sides) then clearly this is more dire than it appears. Bringing a class just for one ability that helps cheese fights / makes it easier is not a good thing for the class though it may be "good" for everyone else.

    Finally, once all the azerite traits are gone and the class is yet again reduced to rubble before the inevitable elliptic curve of growth after 7 months is not a way for us to feel "ok". Yes it happens because of wacky coefficients and numbers being turned in our favor - but is it really that much of a tall ask for a sense of even-keeled class consistency and abilities so that we don't have to wait until that kicks in? Why is that such a hard thing to ask for?
    I’m asking what you are willing to give up, because just like every other class/spec that asks for shit, you never stop to think that you have other things to compensate for it. You never think that all this shit you want on top of what you already have moves you into unfair advantages over others.
    It’s pathetic and annoying.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    I’m asking what you are willing to give up, because just like every other class/spec that asks for shit, you never stop to think that you have other things to compensate for it. You never think that all this shit you want on top of what you already have moves you into unfair advantages over others.
    It’s pathetic and annoying.
    uhhh...did you even read my post in the areas I was willing to give up or are you here to just troll and not actually read anything people are posting? Serious question.

    Also, really? Please tell me what "other things" this class has to compensate for the downsides that I have already mentioned? How does gateway help our dps and our class abilities? How does having a 3 min defensive cooldown help us? How does not having abilities that we once had as baseline that we want back compensation? Why don't you try to step back and actually take an objective look at this class rather than try to lump us in with other classes that actually have some quality of life changes provided to them? Everything I mentioned we had at one point and it was taken from us or given to another class or lost due to a gimmick like the legion artifact or azerite trait that will be lost come Shadowlands. I am not asking for things that we have never had before.

    If you had a Porsche or a Tesla Model-S for 2 years and then all of a sudden (without any compensation or true justification) your car was replaced by a Toyota Camry or Hyundai Sonata (no offense to those cars, but ya) - would that be OK with you? Would you be totally fine with that?

    If you had a nVidia 2070 RTX for 2 years and then it was replaced (with no compensation or reason) with a GeForce 5500 would that be OK with you? You would just nod your head in approval and accept it?

    For both of those I hope your answer would be 'no' as what has happened to this class (and a lot of others) is unacceptable and a disaster by the devs of this game specific to class design and player agency.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonhead View Post
    *snip*
    I'm almost going to tear up, us Warlocks sure been mistreated there. It's not like we're OPAF or at least in top 5 specs one way or another for years now.

    I mean, sure, some stuff certainly could be nice - 1.5 min CD on Unending Resolve? Infernal power shifted to CB a bit? Sure why not, that would be nice for sure. Dimensional Rift and Howl of Terror? Ehhh? Starting to get greedy there matey.

    I think that overall for how strong we are, much of this ash spreading over your head is not warranted and frankly - I'd rather get the progression path we experience for years now, which certainly treats Warlocks well, as opposed to changes for sake of changes.

    IMO this "what you're willing to give in return" is very valid, because we almost always end up strong as is - not exactly much opportunity there to add more strengths without making shit broken.

    You keep asking this "how X is helping out DPS", as if our DPS needs help. Omegalul. You diss Gateway, but this is literally a unique Warlock utility that is pretty much mandatory in every final boss encounter so far for years, sometimes to retarded extents like G'huun.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2020-05-12 at 07:16 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    No classes are getting 'big' changes (beyond shamans, but they got left behind when blizzard 'ran out of time' to change them in BFA). You're supposed to be too wowed by the 'great unpruning' and your press on CD covenant ability to notice every specs gameplay and talent setup will be essentially unchanged.
    This, which is unfortunate because unpruning doesn't mean anything if rotations still all feel pretty much the same across classes.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I'm almost going to tear up, us Warlocks sure been mistreated there. It's not like we're OPAF or at least in top 5 specs one way or another for years now.
    I mean crying about 'being the worst class in the game' while being on top of the meters has always been a lock hidden passive.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I mean crying about 'being the worst class in the game' while being on top of the meters has always been a lock hidden passive.
    I think Mages have us beat there, they are professional crybabies there. Ever wondered where all that conjured water comes from?

    Oh and Shamans too, but at least they actually have a legit case being red-headed step children of WoW balance half the time. They should pray on Ele remaining a Shaman spec, because that's their only chance to ever be something more than mediocre.

    But yeah, Warlocks are sure up there with the best.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarou View Post
    I see a Korean dude playing destro in m+ and he does +25. Destro isnt that bad for m+
    The thing is that Warlock isn't bad in M+ for the Warlock player. But it's bad for the teammates. I play a Rogue and I hate playing M+ with Warlocks because it just makes my job even harder. Why would I invite a Warlock to my group when I can invite a DH that can help me with interrupts and killing explosive orbs etc. Warlocks do fine damage in M+, but they cannot do anything else. No one needs portals in M+. Health stones are nice but it sure as hell isn't enough to justify picking a Warlock over a DH.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-05-12 at 08:06 PM.

  8. #28
    Talk about dramatic, warlock isn't being changed much because it's more or less been fine for a long time now. Sure I'm disappointed about a few things, but overall the class is strong and versatile across all aspects of the game.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nhiosis View Post
    Talk about dramatic, warlock isn't being changed much because it's more or less been fine for a long time now. Sure I'm disappointed about a few things, but overall the class is strong and versatile across all aspects of the game.
    I won't disagree that we aren't at least serviceable if not top 5 regarding short-burst DPS encounters. We can even still hold our own (depending on some factors) in two-target + cleave / add fights. My big gripe is that we are too reliant (as are other classes) on azerite traits and I fear that with Shadowlands coming if that disparity is not addressed we will feel just worse. Our essences (which are clutch) and our traits like Flashpoint and Crashing Chaos - Rolling Havoc as well - with a serious nod towards Overwhelming Power make the spec feel complete. Without something carrying over for us as we are so reliant on these how will destro fair come the next expansion - having to wait until the curve peaks in our favor 8 months in? All I am saying really is that we need something to close the gap between where we are now and where we will be when all this stuff inevitably disappears. I do not know how that is being dramatic, that is being realistic.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonhead View Post
    I won't disagree that we aren't at least serviceable if not top 5 regarding short-burst DPS encounters. We can even still hold our own (depending on some factors) in two-target + cleave / add fights. My big gripe is that we are too reliant (as are other classes) on azerite traits and I fear that with Shadowlands coming if that disparity is not addressed we will feel just worse. Our essences (which are clutch) and our traits like Flashpoint and Crashing Chaos - Rolling Havoc as well - with a serious nod towards Overwhelming Power make the spec feel complete. Without something carrying over for us as we are so reliant on these how will destro fair come the next expansion - having to wait until the curve peaks in our favor 8 months in? All I am saying really is that we need something to close the gap between where we are now and where we will be when all this stuff inevitably disappears. I do not know how that is being dramatic, that is being realistic.
    See the thing is, just like with every expansion - we will lose one set of toys and receive another set of toys. I do wish to remind you that everyone loses their toys and vast majority of specs is pumping because of these specific toys right now.

    It's not really a strange thing to say that over the years - Warlocks one way or another remained strong. There were always some dips here an there that lasted one single patch (or half a patch in case of Highmaul and that omegalul Demo buff in the middle and turned it into a monster).

    Mechanically - you have 2 of 3 specs already with serious raid toys built in, Affliction got a heavily propped up AoE and Destruction is among the few specs in Alpha with uncapped AoE and both still command multidot and cleave respectively, which is simply good - it's like viability ticket right there. Then we are going to get layers of various systems from a get go and with our heavy cooldown nature we benefit greatly from stacking these.

    Finally, we have the final bastion of being a pure DPS with 3 specs and it's really unusual to have all 3 specs suck at the same time, it can happen, but it's very unlikely and it never lasted.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Reminds me how in these very same forums there were people on brink of BFA launch spreading ash over their heads about how it's all over and shit. And then deep in Uldir how Destro needed at least 20% buff and what not to be viable.

  11. #31
    Bloodsail Admiral Narwhalosh Whalescream's Avatar
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    Bring back dot snapshotting for affliction, bring back MoP demonology. This is the way to save the class and maybe get me to resub, oh who am k idding i wont i dont like spending cash on things.

  12. #32
    Bringing snapshotting back is just dooming the spec to being unbalanceable again. What blizz needs to do is add a dot that snapshots your other dots then goes off of that total tick amount on a medium-length cooldown (45 secs-1 min).

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The thing is that Warlock isn't bad in M+ for the Warlock player. But it's bad for the teammates. I play a Rogue and I hate playing M+ with Warlocks because it just makes my job even harder. Why would I invite a Warlock to my group when I can invite a DH that can help me with interrupts and killing explosive orbs etc. Warlocks do fine damage in M+, but they cannot do anything else. No one needs portals in M+. Health stones are nice but it sure as hell isn't enough to justify picking a Warlock over a DH.
    If u change a dh for every other caster (except shaman) the problem is the same. Warlock is for the ranged spot, not supposed to be substitute the 2nd melee spot

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarou View Post
    If u change a dh for every other caster (except shaman) the problem is the same. Warlock is for the ranged spot, not supposed to be substitute the 2nd melee spot
    Mage, hunter and Druid all offer utility that is extremely useful in M+. So even though they lack a short CD kick they have something else that would make me want to bring them. Warlocks got almost nothing. I have no idea why I would bring a Warlock.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Mage, hunter and Druid all offer utility that is extremely useful in M+. So even though they lack a short CD kick they have something else that would make me want to bring them. Warlocks got almost nothing. I have no idea why I would bring a Warlock.
    Thats is a personal problem not a class problem.

    Lock class bring aoe stun, Mortalcoil to single target, Healstones, Portal (despite of your statement is useful in some keys like mechagon workshop motherlode or freehold) and combat res, and like +20k more dmg than a druid
    Last edited by Yarou; 2020-05-18 at 01:59 PM.

  16. #36
    I still hate the change they did to demo for legion. Until that’s reverted or redesigned entirely so I won’t babysit 15 imps, then the spec is doomed to irrelevancy

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarou View Post
    Thats is a personal problem not a class problem.
    Well there is a HUGE part of the playerbase that got that kind of a personal problem then. Weird huh.

  18. #38
    The Patient Recovery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The thing is that Warlock isn't bad in M+ for the Warlock player. But it's bad for the teammates. I play a Rogue and I hate playing M+ with Warlocks because it just makes my job even harder. Why would I invite a Warlock to my group when I can invite a DH that can help me with interrupts and killing explosive orbs etc. Warlocks do fine damage in M+, but they cannot do anything else. No one needs portals in M+. Health stones are nice but it sure as hell isn't enough to justify picking a Warlock over a DH.
    You just stated every reason DH should be nerfed into the ground.. They do too much.

    whatever happened to "bring the player, not the class" oh, blizzard...

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    You just stated every reason DH should be nerfed into the ground.. They do too much.

    whatever happened to "bring the player, not the class" oh, blizzard...
    DH is just a budget warrior. They are good, even very good, but not OP really.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    DH is just a budget warrior. They are good, even very good, but not OP really.
    in mythic+? lol DH destroys everything about warrior in m+. Kidding me?

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