Will BiS lists return?

[Eyechewer]

One of the things I like about wow classic is that there are bis lists, you know where to get each piece you need and you can go throw it one by one.
Titanforging kinda killed that. Now that it's gone, will we see BiS lists return?

[vodow88165]

One of the things I like about wow classic is that there are bis lists, you know where to get each piece you need and you can go throw it one by one.
Titanforging kinda killed that. Now that it's gone, will we see BiS lists return?

bis lists didn't go anywhere
what changed is that theres no more dogshit gear thats unusable by anyone, so more gear is well optimized

[freernnur5]

If the philosophy of let loot be loot holds true, it might be possible to get near a BiS list. Some things that should help:
- The weekly mythic (and pvp?) chest(s) that can help you try and get a specific item you want with their targeting and 3 items to choose from.
- Raid loot only being able to upgrade with sockets and tertiary stats.
- No WF/TF/Corruption
- Being able to choose what legendaries you craft
- Being able to force a stat, add a socket, or add a bonus (pick 2 of 3) for crafted items if you use extra mats.

While I don't know if there will be a 100% set in stone BiS list, I think you'll be able to come far closer to one and finishing gearing than you can now.

[Unlimited Power]

If the philosophy of let loot be loot holds true, it might be possible to get near a BiS list. Some things that should help:
- The weekly mythic (and pvp?) chest(s) that can help you try and get a specific item you want with their targeting and 3 items to choose from.
- Raid loot only being able to upgrade with sockets and tertiary stats.
- No WF/TF/Corruption
- Being able to choose what legendaries you craft
- Being able to force a stat, add a socket, or add a bonus (pick 2 of 3) for crafted items if you use extra mats.

While I don't know if there will be a 100% set in stone BiS list, I think you'll be able to come far closer to one and finishing gearing than you can now.

I think Blizzard even stated they were flirting with the idea of removing socket procs on gear if they could do it in a way that wouldn't be too detrimental to jewelcrafting (which would in turn require fixed gem slots on gear, so who knows if that'll happen).

[freernnur5]

I think Blizzard even stated they were flirting with the idea of removing socket procs on gear if they could do it in a way that wouldn't be too detrimental to jewelcrafting (which would in turn require fixed gem slots on gear, so who knows if that'll happen).

Well we will be able to force gem slots on crafted gear now, so I could see them doing that as that would also shift some power back to crafting professions and make them useful.

[scelero]

there is. you just have to do the math yourself now moreso than go to a definitive forum post or url.

I know my BiS for hpally if I'm in a 5-man situation, or raid with a lot of range.

I imagine if your, say pure dps, it is real simple what each spec's BiS would be.

With a little of your own research, of course.

[Ryuda]

If the philosophy of let loot be loot holds true, it might be possible to get near a BiS list. Some things that should help:
- The weekly mythic (and pvp?) chest(s) that can help you try and get a specific item you want with their targeting and 3 items to choose from.
- Raid loot only being able to upgrade with sockets and tertiary stats.
- No WF/TF/Corruption
- Being able to choose what legendaries you craft
- Being able to force a stat, add a socket, or add a bonus (pick 2 of 3) for crafted items if you use extra mats.

While I don't know if there will be a 100% set in stone BiS list, I think you'll be able to come far closer to one and finishing gearing than you can now.

I think this is pretty accurate. If gear goes live in SL under the "Let loot be loot" banner, then there will at least be BiS lists* with an asterisk for sockets. (Unless they get removed as procs as well, which I think was "kinda-sorta" hinted at in the post.) If sockets go, or become something we purchase (Like the ones sold by Wrathion on Live), or even crafted (Think old style belt buckles made by BS, but for more/all slots), then I don't see why we wouldn't have BiS lists* again. Of course, unlike Classic, multiple difficulties do exist, so unless you only do content that rewards X ilvl, you're likely going to have to contend with getting upgrades that are not BiS, but are (X+15) ilvl instead, for jewelery/trinkets, will likely still require some knowledge of your character/class beyond just plugging in a BiS list you found online.

*I know that there are technically BiS lists now, however, due to the nature of TF/Corruption, these remains largely theoretical BiS lists, and are only very rarely attainable by players.

[TrollHunter3000]

I think Blizzard even stated they were flirting with the idea of removing socket procs on gear if they could do it in a way that wouldn't be too detrimental to jewelcrafting (which would in turn require fixed gem slots on gear, so who knows if that'll happen).

Detrimental as compared to what it is now or what it could be? It's not like you can actually make any gold with any profession other than farming professions (or crafting things from what you farm). It's extremely inefficient, and in some cases impossible, to make a profit from buying mats and crafting anything to resell. So, I don't think removing sockets would make anything worse than it is now.

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there is. you just have to do the math yourself now moreso than go to a definitive forum post or url.

I know my BiS for hpally if I'm in a 5-man situation, or raid with a lot of range.

I imagine if your, say pure dps, it is real simple what each spec's BiS would be.

With a little of your own research, of course.

It's not so much that it's not possible to have a BiS set now but highly impractical and near impossible to obtain those items. Getting the exact right pieces of gear currently that are titanforged, socketed and with the best corruption is so unlikely that we might as well say it's impossible.

[Pandragon]

One of the things I like about wow classic is that there are bis lists, you know where to get each piece you need and you can go throw it one by one.
Titanforging kinda killed that. Now that it's gone, will we see BiS lists return?

This is a fallacy. Titanforging and systems like it did not kill BIS lists, it's really annoying people started saying that. Titanforge was not 100% chance. You still have specific pieces that are better than others as long as all pieces were the same ilvl. If a piece of gear dropped that titanforges high enough, than that one slot loses it's BIS piece to the titanforge one. It doesn't invalidate all other slots as well.

[VinceVega]

While i am happy i don't have to excessively SIM anymore i am a bit afraid, that we will be geared 3 weeks after each patch hits thanks to mythic+.

I really doubt that blizzard dares to get the amount of loot really back down to a "yay i got a good purple" state... to many sources. PVP, World, Mythic and raids....

If they do i am happy. Let loot be loot only works if the loot you get is not thrown around like a opened pinata. Otherwise the whole process will be boring as f***

[Ryuda]

This is a fallacy. Titanforging and systems like it did not kill BIS lists, it's really annoying people started saying that. Titanforge was not 100% chance. You still have specific pieces that are better than others as long as all pieces were the same ilvl. If a piece of gear dropped that titanforges high enough, than that one slot loses it's BIS piece to the titanforge one. It doesn't invalidate all other slots as well.

Mmm, that is sort of true, although, it does depend on a few factors. Due to stats being much closer in value than they have been in the past, combined with DRs, it's common for classes to have a kind of BiS ratio for their secondaries, rather than the common "Stack X > Y > Z > etc." If your BiS list was based around this knowledge, then it's entirely possible that one or two lucky titanforges could throw off several other pieces, even if only by a slight margin*.

*Of course, I'm kind of splitting hairs on the whole "throwing off" thing. Of course if you have a pair of Bracers titanforge, it's not suddenly going to change your BiS trinkets, or your top Azerite Power (Chest/Shoulders/Helm), however, you may find that the I don't know, Haste/Vers ring that was your BiS ring yesterday is now a different Haste/Vers ring more weighted towards one stat than the other, or maybe it's a Haste/Crit ring now instead. In this way, Titanforging did kill the idea of (An attainable/perfectly accurate) BiS list.

[deenman]

I think Blizzard even stated they were flirting with the idea of removing socket procs on gear if they could do it in a way that wouldn't be too detrimental to jewelcrafting (which would in turn require fixed gem slots on gear, so who knows if that'll happen).

they dont have to remove socket procs,just stop making sockets be better than 20 ilvls LOL

[Awsumpossum]

This is a fallacy. Titanforging and systems like it did not kill BIS lists, it's really annoying people started saying that. Titanforge was not 100% chance. You still have specific pieces that are better than others as long as all pieces were the same ilvl. If a piece of gear dropped that titanforges high enough, than that one slot loses it's BIS piece to the titanforge one. It doesn't invalidate all other slots as well.

This is basically pure semantics. Uncontrollable randomization does significantly damage a BIS list, and to argue otherwise is laughable. Your entire argument is: "All things equal, there is still a BIS list." But all things aren't equal -- not only are they not equal, there's no control over them -- so the notion of BIS lists has been significantly damaged/altered. Regardless of whether you think it is a fallacy of logic (which I'd love to see you actually breakdown based on Aristotelian logical structure), there is no question that the BIS list idea presented by the OP was not a thing in BfA in remotely the same fashion.

[Redroniksre]

I mean i don't see a reason why there wouldn't be. However there might be three or so different ones, given you have Raid, PvP, M+, and Torghast to contend loot from.

[RoKPaNda]

Maybe for the first tier, but once they add something like forging back in to appease the masses BiS lists will again go the way of the dodo.

[Swnem]

They never really left completely, but yes, they will.

And you know what? That's a good thing. You should be able to reach a "complete" state each patch. Infinite grinds are cancer.

[Kaykay]

i hope so, and i hope that they wont all be from mythic raiding.

[Rucati]

Yeah probably, I imagine you'll get one each patch for every spec.

I also imagine it will take like two weeks to get full pre-raid BiS, and then it'll just be grinding for raid upgrades after that. Kind of nice since you won't really need to do M+ after the first couple weeks, kind of dumb since you'll basically just log on to raid and then have no other gear to work towards.

As someone who grinds a lot of arenas I think this sounds pretty great, for the people who enjoy PvE to get good gear I imagine this sounds really really boring. Guess we'll see how it turns out.

[Afrospinach]

Infinite grinds are cancer.

I simultaneously feel that this is self imposed but also bad for the game.

I am pretty amazed at how much support there is for the achievements system in my classic guild. There are a lot of completionists that play wow and this loot system utterly denies that.

It is also quite irritating to have the "lucky alt". Myself I just don't feel like I am being rewarded for my time in the game.

[TickTickTick]

I hope so.

Right now, I have a "bis" item and a Gouged Eye of N'zoth. I could use it on this item, but then I think "what if this same item with a good corruption drops? I'll have to replace this item and an additional socket will be lost".

Current system is bad because 1). there are many layers of "bis" and one bis can be "bis"er then the other 2). reaching a perfectly bis set is basically impossible.