Will BiS lists return?

[Sencha]

Hope it won't. Gear shouldn't be a check list.

[Delirus]

BIS lists were never gone. There will always be stuff that is better than other stuff, you could just get upgrades from other content as well with a small chance that might be an upgrade. More stuff to choose from shouldn't be considered bad. Yeah if there is no way for possible upgrades you are basicly done with gearing and I can understand why this might be desirable, but isn't the thrill of a possible upgrade nice? When you finally got another upgrade? To get stronger and stronger?

Isn't one of the things so many cry about that they are capped with stuff? Why support beeing capped with possible upgrades? I mean besides the obvious ilvl cap that has to be in place. Titanforging of 40ilvl or more isn't good design yeah, but warforging of max 5ilvl or something? A small upgrade that feels nice but isn't gamebraking would be cool.

[TrollHunter3000]

Detrimental as in, what would be the point of JC then? If sockets became limited to only a the small handful of crafted pieces a certain person can make, why would someone go JC, unless they made JC have super useful elsewhere. That's kind of the point of what they were talking about. You can't just removed gem socket procs without either A.) adding an alternative source for sockets on most gear or B.) hard shifting the focus of JC into something else, like high level BoE Necks, Rings, and possibly Trinkets.

The only usefulness of any profession right now is for the crafted raid gear. Which is a shit design seeing as that gear doesn't stay in use for very long in most cases.

[razorpax]

we will kinda see a return to BiS
the rng sockets and tertiary will hold a bit of a sway but professions can help it

the return of BiS is also the return of more competitive logs

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Detrimental as in, what would be the point of JC then? If sockets became limited to only a the small handful of crafted pieces a certain person can make, why would someone go JC, unless they made JC have super useful elsewhere. That's kind of the point of what they were talking about. You can't just removed gem socket procs without either A.) adding an alternative source for sockets on most gear or B.) hard shifting the focus of JC into something else, like high level BoE Necks, Rings, and possibly Trinkets.

what i think they are going to do is give BS an item to add sockets or something

[Donald Hellscream]

If what Ion said about gear not having random variables outside of I guess sockets holds true, it would make sense that there would be definite list of BiS gear.

[kamuimac]

One of the things I like about wow classic is that there are bis lists, you know where to get each piece you need and you can go throw it one by one.
Titanforging kinda killed that. Now that it's gone, will we see BiS lists return?

unless they chance stuff people will be geared and bored within a week due to extensive mythic + farm /shrug

[Azerate]

Detrimental as in, what would be the point of JC then? If sockets became limited to only a the small handful of crafted pieces a certain person can make, why would someone go JC, unless they made JC have super useful elsewhere. That's kind of the point of what they were talking about. You can't just removed gem socket procs without either A.) adding an alternative source for sockets on most gear or B.) hard shifting the focus of JC into something else, like high level BoE Necks, Rings, and possibly Trinkets.

Not that I am against random sockets, because I really don't care but I also don't understand that problem.

I started playing in Wrath and there were sockets on almost every piece of gear. Not random "possible" sockets that may or may not show up. They were set in stone and always appeared on items. It was actually pretty rare to see an item without a socket, some of them having as many as 3 sockets to use.

Exact same thing for enchants. I have real trouble understanding why is it such a problem to have enchants for (almost) all pieces of gear. Whatever the reasoning behind this, the reality is it just kills professions because they are only usually considered useful if they can supplement raiding and dungeoneering somehow.

I have no idea if any of those classic systems are coming back in SL, but if Blizz really wants to go back to the roots a bit more, they should.

[kaminaris]

Not that I am against random sockets, because I really don't care but I also don't understand that problem.

I started playing in Wrath and there were sockets on almost every piece of gear. Not random "possible" sockets that may or may not show up. They were set in stone and always appeared on items. It was actually pretty rare to see an item without a socket, some of them having as many as 3 sockets to use.

Exact same thing for enchants. I have real trouble understanding why is it such a problem to have enchants for (almost) all pieces of gear. Whatever the reasoning behind this, the reality is it just kills professions because they are only usually considered useful if they can supplement raiding and dungeoneering somehow.

I have no idea if any of those classic systems are coming back in SL, but if Blizz really wants to go back to the roots a bit more, they should.

Because no matter how you look at them, it was just a gear tax.
This is not how sockets should be done because you will always pick those which gives you the most. It's not interesting and there is no choice in them.

[ymirsson]

Not that I am against random sockets, because I really don't care but I also don't understand that problem.

I started playing in Wrath and there were sockets on almost every piece of gear. Not random "possible" sockets that may or may not show up. They were set in stone and always appeared on items. It was actually pretty rare to see an item without a socket, some of them having as many as 3 sockets to use.

Exact same thing for enchants. I have real trouble understanding why is it such a problem to have enchants for (almost) all pieces of gear. Whatever the reasoning behind this, the reality is it just kills professions because they are only usually considered useful if they can supplement raiding and dungeoneering somehow.

I have no idea if any of those classic systems are coming back in SL, but if Blizz really wants to go back to the roots a bit more, they should.

Their reasoning to reduce sockets and enchant slots were that you couldn't simply equip a newly dropped item in an instance, you had to gem and enchant it.
Not that nowadays you can simply equip any ilvl upgrade either, but we don't talk about that.

[razorpax]

unless they chance stuff people will be geared and bored within a week due to extensive mythic + farm /shrug

if your BiS isnt from a mythic raid boss and you only play 1 build of one spec yeah you are right

of course if you play like that then you aim to finish your list and quit after that point anyways

[tehealadin]

Not that I am against random sockets, because I really don't care but I also don't understand that problem.

I started playing in Wrath and there were sockets on almost every piece of gear. Not random "possible" sockets that may or may not show up. They were set in stone and always appeared on items. It was actually pretty rare to see an item without a socket, some of them having as many as 3 sockets to use.

Exact same thing for enchants. I have real trouble understanding why is it such a problem to have enchants for (almost) all pieces of gear. Whatever the reasoning behind this, the reality is it just kills professions because they are only usually considered useful if they can supplement raiding and dungeoneering somehow.

I have no idea if any of those classic systems are coming back in SL, but if Blizz really wants to go back to the roots a bit more, they should.

Yea I never really got the issue with enchants and sockets. It didn't bother me having to take the few minutes to go get an enchant or gem for a piece of gear, I actually liked having a way to improve some of the gear I got. Well, when I say I don't get the issue, I can see why someone would be put out a bit by having to do something extra when they get a new item, I just didn't see it as that big a hassle.

To be honest, I also never got the issue people had with stat reforging. Being able to make a piece of gear more useful wasn't that big of a hassle. I know that is an aside.

[Azerate]

Because no matter how you look at them, it was just a gear tax.
This is not how sockets should be done because you will always pick those which gives you the most. It's not interesting and there is no choice in them.

Well yeah that is an argument, but is it that bad to have a "gear tax"? It gives you this feeling of customizing and improving your item, and even though you usually just gemmed the same thing everywhere it still felt like upgrading the item. And then you could also see who wanted to put in the effort and fill their sockets and who didn't. It didn't automatically mean that someone is a min maxing hardcore raider, but at least showed some effort one is willing to invest.

Their reasoning to reduce sockets and enchant slots were that you couldn't simply equip a newly dropped item in an instance, you had to gem and enchant it.
Not that nowadays you can simply equip any ilvl upgrade either, but we don't talk about that.

Yeah, back in the day you could just carry some gems and enchants with you for the potential upgrade drop. These days you have to go afk on trash for 3 minutes to put your items into raidbots. Not that I am adamantly against that either. There has to be some level of depth to all of this, the question is where that depths is placed.

Yea I never really got the issue with enchants and sockets. It didn't bother me having to take the few minutes to go get an enchant or gem for a piece of gear, I actually liked having a way to improve some of the gear I got. Well, when I say I don't get the issue, I can see why someone would be put out a bit by having to do something extra when they get a new item, I just didn't see it as that big a hassle.

To be honest, I also never got the issue people had with stat reforging. Being able to make a piece of gear more useful wasn't that big of a hassle. I know that is an aside.

I'm not against reforging either personally, but with this I can kind of see that it's a bit redundant. Plus, no professions were tied to this system, so it could be scrapped without any repercussions to those. Gems + enchants + reforging at once is probably too much, but just gems + enchants seems fine and gives you this old school feeling.

[Aphrel]

One of the things I like about wow classic is that there are bis lists, you know where to get each piece you need and you can go throw it one by one.
Titanforging kinda killed that. Now that it's gone, will we see BiS lists return?

Titanforging just adds ilvl. It doesnt change wich is the best item for any given ilvl.

The only diffrence between classic and now is that the current bis have a x-axis for ilvl and a y-axis for "relative" power.

Whereas the classic bis list just have an y-axis.

Example:
https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#mage_fire

In this instance, glad badge and azshars font are the bis choices. Font for having the unique possibility of being used in conjuction with a nother use trinket, and glad badge for being the singlemost powerful trinket.

[themaster24]

The only usefulness of any profession right now is for the crafted raid gear. Which is a shit design seeing as that gear doesn't stay in use for very long in most cases.

Alchemists would like to have a word with you lol. Seriously though, you're not entirely wrong. Professions have been super gutted, with pretty much all of them losing any real in game benefit outside 1-2 crafted pieces, unless you're an alchemist.

[kaminaris]

Well yeah that is an argument, but is it that bad to have a "gear tax"? It gives you this feeling of customizing and improving your item, and even though you usually just gemmed the same thing everywhere it still felt like upgrading the item. And then you could also see who wanted to put in the effort and fill their sockets and who didn't. It didn't automatically mean that someone is a min maxing hardcore raider, but at least showed some effort one is willing to invest.

It is bad because in reality there is no customization. However if there would be like 5-6 sockets with custom/utility effects it would be a choice.
Like movement speed, on hit movement speed, on hit leech etc.

[BeepBoo]

It doesn't invalidate all other slots as well.

It invalidated ever actually getting your hands on a true BIS list. BIS is whatever the best gear that is actually possible to get in the game is, all things included.

If your BIS chest piece is a t3 corrupted 475 (or whatever max ilvl is) piece, then that's BIS. "best available to you right now" and BIS are different. Just because BIS is unrealistic to ever get your hands on it does not change the definition of what it is. The true issue is how hard it is to get that BIS, because it's all behind like 10 layers of RNG.

It's not so much that it's not possible to have a BiS set now but highly impractical and near impossible to obtain those items. Getting the exact right pieces of gear currently that are titanforged, socketed and with the best corruption is so unlikely that we might as well say it's impossible.

Exactly.

Hope it won't. Gear shouldn't be a check list.

And why not? For some of us, the game fills the same niche as a sport where we're trying to be the best out of a group of people.

[TrollHunter3000]

Alchemists would like to have a word with you lol. Seriously though, you're not entirely wrong. Professions have been super gutted, with pretty much all of them losing any real in game benefit outside 1-2 crafted pieces, unless you're an alchemist.

Well yeah, the extra flask time is nice for sure. You probably save more gold from that than you can even make from creating flasks/pots. At least on highly populated servers the mats to make flasks/pots are typically 60-70% of the value of the items you're making. The only way to make money is with the Silas buff and then still you need some lucky procs. It's not even worth it because your profit margin might be 10%.

And that extra flask time doesn't even really matter if you're in a decent guild that drops cauldrons for raids.

[Sencha]

And why not? For some of us, the game fills the same niche as a sport where we're trying to be the best out of a group of people.

Having the best gear =/= being the best. BiS list just gives a sense of achievement for those who need to get the feeling they reached the end of the game as they can't get any better gear.

[BeepBoo]

Having the best gear =/= being the best. BiS list just gives a sense of achievement for those who need to get the feeling they reached the end of the game as they can't get any better gear.

Hard to prove you're the best when gear is as meaningful and powerful as it is and everyone isn't on a level playing field. That's the point: you can't really be sure unless your gear is literally as good as it can be.

[themaster24]

Well yeah, the extra flask time is nice for sure. You probably save more gold from that than you can even make from creating flasks/pots. At least on highly populated servers the mats to make flasks/pots are typically 60-70% of the value of the items you're making. The only way to make money is with the Silas buff and then still you need some lucky procs. It's not even worth it because your profit margin might be 10%.

And that extra flask time doesn't even really matter if you're in a decent guild that drops cauldrons for raids.

IIRC, you get extra flask time on cauldron flasks, which means you can spread the cauldron flasks around more to those who don't have alch.