TBC, world buffs and consumables

[ryjkur]

i watched Method killing Lady Vashj and first thing i see them all having all old world buffs + 5 elixirs and flask and other buffs too... is it going to be thing to farm old world elixirs in addition to new ones and getting world buffs as well?
It's going to suck if TBC is just like classic where you stack all world buffs for every raid.

i thought tbc was completely different game

[Tojara]

They consolidated buffs shortly after this due to community outcry. World buffs no longer worked in raids and they moved to the battle/defensive buff system. In such a system you could use a flask, or you could use a battle elixir and defensive elixir. Some buffs weren't classified as either (like food, temporary enchantments like oils I believe), but it basically changed how consumables worked from that point until modern day.

The balancing in early TBC was horrondeous. You had a combination of a lot of things that contributed to this. Most of the bosses were just flat out buggy or impossible, while others had amazingly difficult DPS checks that you couldn't reasonably do them without having your entire raid take the modern day classic approach (of using every single consumable, in addition to world buffs available in the game). Keep in mind that early in TBC itemization was absolutely terrible as well, until they systematically revamped everything to make epics from Karazhan and the raids actually good.

The battle/defense elixir changed everything, but that also came with across the board nerfs to content and them actually FIXING content. Despite being brutal, most of the bosses in SSC were perfectly doable. There's a reason nobody touched Tempest Keep, and that's because everything except for Void Reaver was bugged beyond belief.

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

That Method's kill video is during pre 2.1.0 patch where you could stack as many elixirs as you wanted and world buffs worked until this patch as well.

i thought tbc was completely different game

TBC will be different if it's going to be 2.4.0 at launch.
It was "vanilla like" at start but patch after patch Blizzard made major changes. Starting from 2.1.0 removing consumable and world buff stacking. But the biggest change was 2.3.0 where they completely made step to another direction:

-converted weapon skill to expertise
-reduced Azeroth XP requirement alot and made basically ALL elite areas to non elites
-healing gear now has ~30% spell damage to it as well
-almost all classes got minor revamp and/or QoL changes (hunter lost deadzone, blind no longer need reagent, mage table etc.)
-all profession trainers train up to 300 skill (no longed needed to go Uldaman to learn master Enchanting etc.)
-AV reinforcements

those are first things to come in mind so yeah it will not be like classic if they choose to give us the latest patch.

[ryjkur]

That Method's kill video is during pre 2.1.0 patch where you could stack as many elixirs as you wanted and world buffs worked until this patch as well.



TBC will be different if it's going to be 2.4.0 at launch.
It was "vanilla like" at start but patch after patch Blizzard made major changes. Starting from 2.1.0 removing consumable and world buff stacking. But the biggest change was 2.3.0 where they completely made step to another direction:

-converted weapon skill to expertise
-reduced Azeroth XP requirement alot and made basically ALL elite areas to non elites
-healing gear now has ~30% spell damage to it as well
-almost all classes got minor revamp and/or QoL changes (hunter lost deadzone, blind no longer need reagent, mage table etc.)
-all profession trainers train up to 300 skill (no longed needed to go Uldaman to learn master Enchanting etc.)
-AV reinforcements

those are first things to come in mind so yeah it will not be like classic if they choose to give us the latest patch.

would be interesting if they decided to make all these changes phase by phase (other than allowing world buffs and million consumambles lol screw that)

[wowclazzic]

the only thing that hasnt changed is Method #2 in 2007 and #2 in 2020

[enigma77]

That Method's kill video is during pre 2.1.0 patch where you could stack as many elixirs as you wanted and world buffs worked until this patch as well.



TBC will be different if it's going to be 2.4.0 at launch.
It was "vanilla like" at start but patch after patch Blizzard made major changes. Starting from 2.1.0 removing consumable and world buff stacking. But the biggest change was 2.3.0 where they completely made step to another direction:

-converted weapon skill to expertise
-reduced Azeroth XP requirement alot and made basically ALL elite areas to non elites
-healing gear now has ~30% spell damage to it as well
-almost all classes got minor revamp and/or QoL changes (hunter lost deadzone, blind no longer need reagent, mage table etc.)
-all profession trainers train up to 300 skill (no longed needed to go Uldaman to learn master Enchanting etc.)
-AV reinforcements

those are first things to come in mind so yeah it will not be like classic if they choose to give us the latest patch.

the beginning of the end in other words

that's why TBC is a hard pass

[Flurryfang]

i watched Method killing Lady Vashj and first thing i see them all having all old world buffs + 5 elixirs and flask and other buffs too... is it going to be thing to farm old world elixirs in addition to new ones and getting world buffs as well?
It's going to suck if TBC is just like classic where you stack all world buffs for every raid.

i thought tbc was completely different game

....I would not really care. Like, its not like the dungeons are designed for people to have world buffs. If somebody want to win World Fastest with world buffs, they are welcome. It will change nothing for most people.

Besides, if you are the one get a few buffs before a raid, be my guest, but be ready to lose it before you get far into the raid, since time will pass or you will wipe on adds or something xD

[Nitros14]

The battle/defense elixir changed everything, but that also came with across the board nerfs to content and them actually FIXING content. Despite being brutal, most of the bosses in SSC were perfectly doable. There's a reason nobody touched Tempest Keep, and that's because everything except for Void Reaver was bugged beyond belief.

High Astromancer Solarian wasn't bugged, just had 5.5 million hit points instead of the final total of 2.8 million hp they settled on. They also reworked the boss four times, twice before it was killed and made arcane resistance actually work on her spells.

Al'ar and Kael'thas were hilariously bugged. Kael'thas building threat on all the healers before becoming active was pretty funny, I recall Nihilum trying soulstoning all the healers but it didn't work.

Also

Patch 2.1.0 “The Black Temple” May 22, 2007

Elixirs now stack in two categories, Battle (Offensive) and Guardian (Defensive) Elixirs. You can only have one of each type of Elixir up at a time. As a result Elixirs now stack with class abilities such as Arcane Intellect.


Juju Chill and Juju Ember are now considered Guardian Elixirs and do not stack with other resistance buffs.


Ground Scorpok Assay, Juju Might, Juju Power, Lung Juice Cocktail, and R.O.I.D.S are now considered Battle Elixirs.


Fengus' Ferocity,Mol'dar's Moxie,Rallying Cry of the Dragonslayer, Slip'kik's Savvy and Spirit of Zandalar these buffs will no longer work on targets over level 63.

Tojara is right, a lot of people don't realize just how brutal raiding was in the 2.0 patch. Not only were many bosses extremely buggy they were often tuned far more harshly than the tuning they ultimately settled on in 2.1. The trash all respawned in a single hour which was absurd considering the length of trash clears in the Eye and Serpentshrine. Until epics were buffed in 2.1 most of the drops were sidegrades or worse compared to dungeon blues.

"(2007-03-21):
Gruul's health has been lowered, and the damage from his shatter ability has been reduced."

This little patch note doesn't indicate that the shatter damage was reduced by almost 50%.

"The Burning Crusade Hotfix (2007-03-21): "The Magtheridon encounter has been rebalanced to be somewhat easier and should now better keep to proper raid progression."

This also doesn't quite convey just how huge this nerf was. You no longer needed all 25 people in the rotation to click and the tuning was greatly eased.

There were also a number of hotfixes that were never documented, presumably since they came at the same time as bug fixes. For example Blizzard never put in patch notes that they removed Lady Vashj's mind control.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ed-the-longest

There's tons of BC bosses at the top of this list for very good reason.

Honestly Black Temple and Hyjal were a total breeze in comparison. Not particularly hard raids.

[Finear]

the beginning of the end in other words

that's why TBC is a hard pass

pretty much all these changes were positive and good for the game

[enigma77]

pretty much all these changes were positive and good for the game

absolutely not, no they weren't

[Flurryfang]

pretty much all these changes were positive and good for the game

If i remember right, they made buff elixers lose their value overnight. Since you had to choose between 1 hour buff or elixers, everybody just took 1 hour buff. Some flavour was surely lost.

[Tojara]

absolutely not, no they weren't

Most of them are pretty healthy for the game. If you honestly think using consumables and world buffs from a previous expansion is healthy, I don't know what to tell you. The other shit mentioned could probably be left up to debate, especially QoL things, but in the grand scheme of things, they don't really change a massive amount.

I can assure you however that the raiding community would've likely collapsed if they didn't change consumables and world buffs in the 2.1 patch.

[Nicholaes92]

If i remember right, they made buff elixers lose their value overnight. Since you had to choose between 1 hour buff or elixers, everybody just took 1 hour buff. Some flavour was surely lost.

In today's day and age I see this as a positive. Getting 500 buffs to do a raid you can easily do without none because that's what most guilds want is fucking cancer.

[Flurryfang]

In today's day and age I see this as a positive. Getting 500 buffs to do a raid you can easily do without none because that's what most guilds want is fucking cancer.

I don't know how the average guild in Classic is doing it, but its just that there are so many small buffs in TBC, that i find it hard, that anybody would demand more than food, elixers, potions and flasks, which are just part of the economy back then But if Classic has average guild forcing dragon slayer buffs and DM buffs, i can see it might be a thing, you have to remove for the sanity of the player xD

[Tojara]

TBC consumables just turned into flask, food and temporary buffs like weapon oils in the 2.1 patch. What's often forgotten is that you still had to chug potions every 2 minutes on CD. Whether that's armor, mana or the temporary haste buff.

[Nitros14]

I don't know how the average guild in Classic is doing it, but its just that there are so many small buffs in TBC, that i find it hard, that anybody would demand more than food, elixers, potions and flasks, which are just part of the economy back then But if Classic has average guild forcing dragon slayer buffs and DM buffs, i can see it might be a thing, you have to remove for the sanity of the player xD

The private server mentality infecting classic that you need to go get every world buff and random ass consumable to do Molten Core is pretty obnoxious yeah. Some things you can't bring back.

- - - Updated - - -

TBC consumables just turned into flask, food and temporary buffs like weapon oils in the 2.1 patch. What's often forgotten is that you still had to chug potions every 2 minutes on CD. Whether that's armor, mana or the temporary haste buff.

Ready to do Black Temple

[Flurryfang]

The private server mentality infecting classic that you need to go get every world buff and random ass consumable to do Molten Core is pretty obnoxious yeah. Some things you can't bring back.

I get that world fastest guilds does it, but i don't care if turbo people are ruining their experience if it means, that the crafting economy works as it should. When TBC launched, much of the buff items in the game had a value, even if it just buffed a little bit. But with the guardian/battle elixer update, some items just became bad or worthless, and i don't like that.

But again, if we still see guilds today in Classic, that a progressing through BWL, force their players to get world buffs for that first wipe, i get the concern completly.

- - - Updated - - -

TBC consumables just turned into flask, food and temporary buffs like weapon oils in the 2.1 patch. What's often forgotten is that you still had to chug potions every 2 minutes on CD. Whether that's armor, mana or the temporary haste buff.

Mana/health potions were charming back in the day It was interesting to plan your potions through the battle, stretching the battle a bit if the next potion CD was just about getting back on CD

[RoKPaNda]

absolutely not, no they weren't

Most of the changes that those of us at the top complain about have actually been good for the game, they just made us less special.

[Nitros14]

Most of the changes that those of us at the top complain about have actually been good for the game, they just made us less special.

Have they?

If you look at warcraft logs for example. There's 320,000 mages that have killed any boss in heroic Ny'alotha. 2.5 million mages have killed a boss in Blackwing Lair on classic.

1.2 million warlocks in BWL. 242,000 warlocks in heroic Ny'alotha.

It seems to me that the raiding game has experienced a catastrophic playerbase collapse on retail.

On wowprogress there were 84,000 guilds raiding in Icecrown Citadel. That's down to 13,800 in Ny'alotha.


Maybe the changes have been good for the game but they certainly haven't been good for raiding.

[JustaWarlock]

Maybe the changes have been good for the game but they certainly haven't been good for raiding.

Lol no. It wasn't the TBC changes that have resulted in the drop in raiding. The primary reasons for your figures and the drop off is:

a) You get better gear failing to time a M+ than you do from heroic raids
b) BFA is cancer, boring and the gearing is the worst it's ever been
c) You could get equivalent gear for drawing circles in the sand or afking a warfront than raiding
d) BFA classes are just so flavorless and boring that people either quit or just went back to classic