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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    Because they pretty much do. Who in their mind buys flasks, elixirs, and food buffs solely to do dailies and mundane farming?
    Quite literally nowhere was it mentioned that you had to 'buy' them.

    You can in fact make them yourself. Or have friends/guildies who make them.

    And no - The game being balanced around raiding is why this and many other changes were made. These changes, which were made only with benefitting raiders in mind, DID take away the ability to use them together for people who DIDN'T raid also. Which was the large majority of BC's playerbase.

    Just because you didn't try to stack every single consumable, didn't mean it had no benefit for you. Being able to use two Guardian Elixirs or two Battle Elixirs before they became such was a benefit nobody was able to do again after this change. And yes - It did make a difference, no matter how small.

    I don't know what is 'so obvious' that 'he's trying to say' that I'm apparently not getting about this, but you're both apparently doing a terrible job of saying what you mean to say. If you're trying to say something - Maybe just say it. It'll make it a lot easier to understand rather than navigating your various "This didn't help anyone" comments that are blatantly false.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2020-04-26 at 11:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Quite literally nowhere was it mentioned that you had to 'buy' them.

    You can in fact make them yourself. Or have friends/guildies who make them.

    And no - The game being balanced around raiding is why this and many other changes were made. These changes, which were made only with benefitting raiders in mind, DID take away the ability to use them together for people who DIDN'T raid also. Which was the large majority of BC's playerbase.

    Just because you didn't try to stack every single consumable, didn't mean it had no benefit for you. Being able to use two Guardian Elixirs or two Battle Elixirs before they became such was a benefit nobody was able to do again after this change. And yes - It did make a difference, no matter how small.

    I don't know what is 'so obvious' that 'he's trying to say' that I'm apparently not getting about this, but you're both apparently doing a terrible job of saying what you mean to say. If you're trying to say something - Maybe just say it. It'll make it a lot easier to understand rather than navigating your various "This didn't help anyone" comments that are blatantly false.
    Look your message is right when you’re talking about what happened to retail and what happens when you balance the game around raiding. That message is fine.

    I’m telling you that you are dying on the wrong hill when you are attempting to find an example of that.

    No one fucking cared about stacking elixers more than raiders. Christ sometimes even as a raider I didn’t even use or buy ONE flask, let alone stacking them to do fucking dailies dude.

    If you want people to listen to your message that the game shouldn’t be balanced around raiding, I completely agree, find a new example. Don’t say dumb shit like you are trying to push right now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    Spellsrike, Spellfire, Frozen Shadoweave are worth a pretty penny, especially if you are buying CDs from other people so you can craft them earlier. Then there's all the gems and enchants to consider. Blacksmithing isn't that much cheaper either.

    Of course it doesn't apply to everyone: Prot and Holy Paladins, Feral Druids, Shamans, Rogues and Hunters can avoid some of the ludicrous expenses but they are still spending thousands of gold to get a proper pre-raid set.
    ‘Thousands?’ Umm idk what server you have been playing on, but it ain’t thousands

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarator8 View Post
    Because I was replying to the person above me and what he said concerned retail?
    Like i said, looking for ANY excuse to talk about your one true love - Retail wow. Its like a small child who pulls the hair of a girl in his class - he says its because he doesnt like her, but all adults know its because he has a crush on her.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholaes92 View Post
    Look your message is right when you’re talking about what happened to retail....
    You lot are INFATUATED with retail. Its unhealthy. Focus on what you enjoy.

  4. #64
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    Prices aren't really dictated by what we remember years ago. Everybody knows which materials will be sought after, making the prices for such things a lot higher than they were when TBC was released over a decade ago. I'd imagine we might end up with the same retarded setup we have on classic, where servers are far bigger than they were before, essentially funneling 2 to 3 times the population into a single contested area as well. Finally add in well known farm locations for accumulating raw gold, and you have an entirely different picture in regards to what prices of things will be in TBC.

    How many people made arcanite reapers in classic? How many people crafted high end blues, or non-bis gear when crafting professions in classic? The answer to both of those questions is virtually zero.

    When I played vanilla over 15 years ago, an arcane crystal wasn't worth 50-60 gold, to give you an example.

    Some items are going to be worth way more than what they were years ago, but it's all relative. With more gold into the economy everything you sell will be worth more as well. On the flip-side, because content in general is easier than what we are use to, somethings just won't hold any value because people would rather just get raid drops instead of spending thousands of gold to acquire them.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Beet View Post
    I forgot about the expertise thing. This meant so the racial wasn't broken anymore right? Like right now on classic orcs and human melee don't need edgemasters to be competitive due to getting your weapon skill automatically.
    yeah those racials wont be that good anymore after 2.3.0
    Last edited by mmocfd1b0ab5a3; 2020-04-26 at 12:50 PM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Like i said, looking for ANY excuse to talk about your one true love - Retail wow. Its like a small child who pulls the hair of a girl in his class - he says its because he doesnt like her, but all adults know its because he has a crush on her.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You lot are INFATUATED with retail. Its unhealthy. Focus on what you enjoy.
    The guy was talking about how the game eventually became just balanced around raids, and that IS what happened to retail. You don’t even have to agree that’s a negative thing but that is what happened

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Quite literally nowhere was it mentioned that you had to 'buy' them.

    You can in fact make them yourself. Or have friends/guildies who make them.

    And no - The game being balanced around raiding is why this and many other changes were made. These changes, which were made only with benefitting raiders in mind, DID take away the ability to use them together for people who DIDN'T raid also. Which was the large majority of BC's playerbase.

    Just because you didn't try to stack every single consumable, didn't mean it had no benefit for you. Being able to use two Guardian Elixirs or two Battle Elixirs before they became such was a benefit nobody was able to do again after this change. And yes - It did make a difference, no matter how small.

    I don't know what is 'so obvious' that 'he's trying to say' that I'm apparently not getting about this, but you're both apparently doing a terrible job of saying what you mean to say. If you're trying to say something - Maybe just say it. It'll make it a lot easier to understand rather than navigating your various "This didn't help anyone" comments that are blatantly false.
    If you don't understand by now, then there's no point.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    If you don't understand by now, then there's no point.
    Yeah I should have stopped talking to him as well right when he said not being able to stack elixers and flasks was a big negative while doing dailies and leveling

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholaes92 View Post
    ‘Thousands?’ Umm idk what server you have been playing on, but it ain’t thousands
    If you want to get Blue Quality gems in your sockets, Epic Pants Enchant and Weapon Enchants it sure is thousands, especially when a server launches. It will be the case with Classic Burning Crusade.

    Add to that epic crafted gear that everyone wants to a degree or another and yes it goes in the thousands.
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  10. #70
    It's already been discussed to death but we're gonna be getting a modified (time gating etc) 2.4.3 patch where all this was fixed, classes were really well balanced at that point and really the whole game runs like clockwork. That said, it will be way too easy to form any sort of challenge for an organised guild, private servers have run 2.4.3 and in recent years we've had very polished feature/content complete versions with pre-nerf content numbers or even buffed (harder than pre-nerf) and they still got roflstomped.

    Blizz can control the roflstomping to some extent by not allowing all the strong crafted items at launch and by having pre-nerf Magtheridon. Magtheridon was initially a big roadblock for many guilds, while in the nerfed form he's easier than Gruul. Private servers also show though that TBC is too hardcore for most players and the attunement roadblocks kill guilds (hard for new players coming in later to catch up, higher ranked guilds cannibalise the lower ones), they always start with big hype and massive numbers but eventually end up as ghost towns while Vanilla/WOTLK pservers seem to thrive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    If i remember right, they made buff elixers lose their value overnight. Since you had to choose between 1 hour buff or elixers, everybody just took 1 hour buff. Some flavour was surely lost.
    This is a non-issue, both in TBC and right now on private servers it's very common to run elixirs instead of flasks. Mongoose or Major Agility Elixir for example is very nearly as good as a flask for a DPS Warrior while being much cheaper and tanks will sometimes run a Battle + Defense elixir for more threat output.

    Until you have the rep to use the flask tokens it's not at all uncommon for people to use elixirs for a lot of stuff, and most people aren't just popping haste pots left and right either. You have absolutely zero issue selling elixirs on TBC realms, the market is there for them because the price to performance difference is huge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    How many people made arcanite reapers in classic?
    That's not a good example because in Classic the game is taking place after weapon speed attack power normalisation. If you took away normalisation then slower weapons would once again have an extreme advantage for instant damage attacks.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2020-04-26 at 06:27 PM.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    It's already been discussed to death but we're gonna be getting a modified (time gating etc) 2.4.3 patch where all this was fixed, classes were really well balanced at that point and really the whole game runs like clockwork. That said, it will be way too easy to form any sort of challenge for an organised guild, private servers have run 2.4.3 and in recent years we've had very polished feature/content complete versions with pre-nerf content numbers or even buffed (harder than pre-nerf) and they still got roflstomped.

    Blizz can control the roflstomping to some extent by not allowing all the strong crafted items at launch and by having pre-nerf Magtheridon. Magtheridon was initially a big roadblock for many guilds, while in the nerfed form he's easier than Gruul. Private servers also show though that TBC is too hardcore for most players and the attunement roadblocks kill guilds (hard for new players coming in later to catch up, higher ranked guilds cannibalise the lower ones), they always start with big hype and massive numbers but eventually end up as ghost towns while Vanilla/WOTLK pservers seem to thrive.



    This is a non-issue, both in TBC and right now on private servers it's very common to run elixirs instead of flasks. Mongoose or Major Agility Elixir for example is very nearly as good as a flask for a DPS Warrior while being much cheaper and tanks will sometimes run a Battle + Defense elixir for more threat output.

    Until you have the rep to use the flask tokens it's not at all uncommon for people to use elixirs for a lot of stuff, and most people aren't just popping haste pots left and right either. You have absolutely zero issue selling elixirs on TBC realms, the market is there for them because the price to performance difference is huge.
    From my experience in TBC, people really did not want to use the extra gold on mongoose/major agility, because the cost of flasks got so low compared to the cost of 2 elixirs. The experience was different in competitive raiding guilds, but in the average guild, you did not see elixirs after the change... But then again, my experience might be dated, with Classic players maybe doing completely different things than back in the day.

    And then we come back to the point, that what do we gain/lose by having TBC be with many buffs, compared to few buffs (post/pre compile patch). I don't think anything is lost by having the many buffs, as most people will properly completly ignore it and not really notice the abundance, while some players will absolutely love being able to do so much preparation before raids

    Edit: And while private servers is a good thing to compare to when it comes what to expect of TBC-Classic, its also a bit dangerous. The playerbase of Classic, and future TBC-Classic, will be much, much less hardcore than the players who go to private servers. People will go to play TBC, BECAUSE of the attunement, not despite it, just like people go to Classic for the slow leveling experience, not despite it.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    That's not a good example because in Classic the game is taking place after weapon speed attack power normalisation. If you took away normalisation then slower weapons would once again have an extreme advantage for instant damage attacks.
    That's not entirely my point. Even if they kept weapon speed normalization to an earlier vanilla version, the point remains, who is going to spend over a thousand gold for an item that's going to last an incremental amount of time? Nobody. You can bring up numbers all you want to compare relative damage in both PvE and PvP scenarios, but I can assure you that in either scenario where arcanite reaper might be favored, it's not favored by much and it's also over a thousand gold of raw materials in price (by today's standards).

    My entire point is that this isn't the same time period, the rule set was known beforehand and people play the game differently. In what world, pre-normalization, or not is somebody going to spend that amount of gold when they can get into any Molten Core run for a chance at OEB/Spinal/Earthshaker/BRE as soon as they hit 60? This didn't happen 15 years ago because it took some players several months to hit 60, and it took a few months for people to even clear MC for the first time. Nowadays every guild with a pulse clears MC as soon as they have enough people and pugs are absolutely rampant. This level of pug activity didn't exist on my vanilla server until the end, and it was still relatively rare.

    Talking about normalization like it would've made a difference is pretty laughable too. I played with people 15 years ago and people 15 years ago were retarded. Yes there was information out there, but people chose to ignore it. Some people used arcanite reapers prior to normalization because they realized that mathematically, it was superior in some PvE and some PvP situations depending on what epic weapon they were comparing it too (keep in mind, that in earlier versions of the game, the loot from MC was awful and MC dropped like every piece of T2 as well). Most people however just used arcanite reapers because it was the only real two handed weapon they could get their hands out, regardless of if it was 'good' or not. All of this simply because there was no wealth of information and people just wore whatever was available to them.

    What more evidence do you need of player ignorance? The mountains of edgemaster handguards that were virtually free on most servers, despite information being out there that they were good? People dismissed blue trinkets all the time because they were blue, just like casters and healers dismissed green items that gave +spell power or +healing simply because a blue or purple item HAS TO BE BETTER. Or rogues not knowing that aged core gauntlets were good? I mean, the list goes on.

    Zero to do with the normalization. If classic servers launched with a different patch cycle, you might have some people buy arcanite reapers, but the majority still wouldn't. It's a waste of money when you know full well that you can clear Molten Core with your eyes closed. 15 years ago many just lucked into the fact that arcanite reaper was a pretty solid weapon with a favorable attack speed, but the main reason for the crafting of the item was that clearing raiding content (any raiding content) wasn't a given for the average player, whereas today literally anybody can (pug or not).

    All of this leads me to believe that some crafted items in TBC won't be as sought after as they once were.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholaes92 View Post
    Look your message is right when you’re talking about what happened to retail and what happens when you balance the game around raiding. That message is fine.

    I’m telling you that you are dying on the wrong hill when you are attempting to find an example of that.

    No one fucking cared about stacking elixers more than raiders. Christ sometimes even as a raider I didn’t even use or buy ONE flask, let alone stacking them to do fucking dailies dude.
    Right, so since they're the ones who cared most, obviously they're the only ones who matter.

    This is literally the mind set that caused these changes. It's literally THIS REASON why the game became so focused around only raiding.

    You're once again failing miserably at saying anything other than "Raiders are all that matter."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    If you don't understand by now, then there's no point.
    Right, so there isn't a point, and you can't tell us the point because there isn't one. Or, more specifically, I called you out directly and now you're embarrassed and can't defend yourself.

    Got it.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Right, so since they're the ones who cared most, obviously they're the only ones who matter.

    This is literally the mind set that caused these changes. It's literally THIS REASON why the game became so focused around only raiding.

    You're once again failing miserably at saying anything other than "Raiders are all that matter."

    - - - Updated - - -



    Right, so there isn't a point, and you can't tell us the point because there isn't one. Or, more specifically, I called you out directly and now you're embarrassed and can't defend yourself.

    Got it.
    My fuckin guy, you keep saying ‘this is the mindset...’ as if I’m backing the raiders or something. I am not. I haven’t raided raided sine the end of wotlk and I probably won’t in classic tbc. What I’m saying is, even as a casual, you would be a fucking moron to use, let alone stack, elixers and flasks doing things like dailies. That is absolutely asinine. Just sell them, even if I was sitting on a stock pile of elixers no one wanted to buy, I would fuckin vendor them before I stacked them to do dailies. This isn’t a raider mindset, this is a mindset of what’s worth doing in this game for how hard it is, and elixers for dailies is an actual joke.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholaes92 View Post
    My fuckin guy, you keep saying ‘this is the mindset...’ as if I’m backing the raiders or something. I am not.
    Then you're doing a terrible job.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Then you're doing a terrible job.
    I’m not even mentioning raiders anymore. I’m specifically just talking about using these things for dailies. Completely ignoring the raiders who used this. Even with the topic of raiders completely out of the topic, it’s still a dumb dumb dumb idea to stack flasks for freakin dailies.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    From my experience in TBC, people really did not want to use the extra gold on mongoose/major agility, because the cost of flasks got so low compared to the cost of 2 elixirs. The experience was different in competitive raiding guilds, but in the average guild, you did not see elixirs after the change... But then again, my experience might be dated, with Classic players maybe doing completely different things than back in the day.

    And then we come back to the point, that what do we gain/lose by having TBC be with many buffs, compared to few buffs (post/pre compile patch). I don't think anything is lost by having the many buffs, as most people will properly completly ignore it and not really notice the abundance, while some players will absolutely love being able to do so much preparation before raids
    Well I started playing on TBC launch and hit 70 after 2.1, but I immediately started raiding at 70 and quickly climbed the guild ladder (and it really was a ladder in TBC due to the attunements, as you might well remember). But I also played the Warmane launch in 2017 and was playing with the top guilds on that server (and genuinely some of the best legacy and current WoW players in the world in those guilds) through to the end of clearing Hyjal before I stopped.

    Both cases I was buying Mongoose/Major Agil because it was cheaper to do a night of raiding on those than it was to use a flask. Towards the end of actual TBC back in 2007/2008 I was using primarily flasks (from tokens)and Demonslaying Elixirs, but never got to that stage on Warmane, was primarily using Elixirs because a full night of Elixirs was cheaper than one flask on the AH there and only used a Flask on proper progression, especially during farm. A flask was actually superior as a DPS for me, but only really worthwhile if you had recklessness up (once per 30m).

    And on Warmane the tanking trends were very different to actual TBC because it was an overall obsession with TPS rather than health/avoidance stacking we saw back then.

    Edit: And while private servers is a good thing to compare to when it comes what to expect of TBC-Classic, its also a bit dangerous. The playerbase of Classic, and future TBC-Classic, will be much, much less hardcore than the players who go to private servers. People will go to play TBC, BECAUSE of the attunement, not despite it, just like people go to Classic for the slow leveling experience, not despite it.
    It was primarily casual players, you had the usual crew of hardcores who dominated all the top private realms and who are dominating in classic now, but the majority of players were just average guys there for a good time, not for a hard time or a long time. I was one of those too, I had no initial intention of raiding, but I tanked a Kara run as a pug and it spiralled into a guild invite and full on raiding, at a time I had just moved home, got the internet finally installed (after months without it) and I was out of work... Timing.

    The issue with the attunements was that on launch everyone was doing them so no problem. But later nobody wanted to do Heroic Shattered Halls because it was tough. I know people love to say it's not hard, but I tanked the thing as a Warrior in pre-raid gear and wanted to pull my hair out (T5 attunement requires the speed run of saving the hostage on HC), after the initial surge of players had done it nobody really wanted to go there, nobody farmed it for badges and so it becomes harder to get done later down the line.

    Of course Blizz eventually removes that attunement requirement, but then you have a similarly tough attunement to get into T6 (Vashj/KT).. In 2007-2008 it caused higher guilds to cannibalise the lower ones and that happened on Warmane too, I don't know the exact causes but like other TBC servers it went from extremely popular (like every zone was just packed full) to a complete ghost town in the matter of about 1-2 years.. On the other hand the WOTLK servers have been really healthy for years.
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  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholaes92 View Post
    I’m not even mentioning raiders anymore. I’m specifically just talking about using these things for dailies. Completely ignoring the raiders who used this. Even with the topic of raiders completely out of the topic, it’s still a dumb dumb dumb idea to stack flasks for freakin dailies.
    Which, again - Great for you that you think it's dumb.

    For people who aren't you, who didn't raid though? You're not able to see their viewpoint because you were a raider. To you, a raider, it's dumb.

    For everyone else, who literally didn't raid or pugged at best, there is LITERALLY NO OTHER TIME WORTH USING THEM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    That Method's kill video is during pre 2.1.0 patch where you could stack as many elixirs as you wanted and world buffs worked until this patch as well.



    TBC will be different if it's going to be 2.4.0 at launch.
    It was "vanilla like" at start but patch after patch Blizzard made major changes. Starting from 2.1.0 removing consumable and world buff stacking. But the biggest change was 2.3.0 where they completely made step to another direction:

    -converted weapon skill to expertise
    -reduced Azeroth XP requirement alot and made basically ALL elite areas to non elites
    -healing gear now has ~30% spell damage to it as well
    -almost all classes got minor revamp and/or QoL changes (hunter lost deadzone, blind no longer need reagent, mage table etc.)
    -all profession trainers train up to 300 skill (no longed needed to go Uldaman to learn master Enchanting etc.)
    -AV reinforcements

    those are first things to come in mind so yeah it will not be like classic if they choose to give us the latest patch.
    I was surprised to find out the dead zone was removed in tbc(funny as i actualy played hunter a fair bit in tbc,but its been long i guess),i was under the impression it was removed in cata,didnt something change in cata in regards to hunters range dmg?(dont mean focus or ammo etc)

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Which, again - Great for you that you think it's dumb.

    For people who aren't you, who didn't raid though? You're not able to see their viewpoint because you were a raider. To you, a raider, it's dumb.

    For everyone else, who literally didn't raid or pugged at best, there is LITERALLY NO OTHER TIME WORTH USING THEM.
    How many times do I have to tell you I don’t and am not going to raid and that I’m a casual until you actually learn to read it? Should I just start quoting myself until you?

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