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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    All of it still reads like you want a DK that is range and wears cloth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Simplejakk View Post
    So, you basically want a Warlock that has access to DK abilities and can also be a healer. Glad we could clear that up.
    I don't get that impression myself and I already have a DK. The type of Necromancer class I described would be interesting to me. While the themes may have similarities to a Death Knight, a Warlock, a Priest, and a Mage, I feel the resultant amalgamation would be interesting and different from what we already have in game in a single class.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2020-04-28 at 09:52 PM.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Simplejakk View Post
    So, you basically want a Warlock that has access to DK abilities and can also be a healer. Glad we could clear that up.
    I mean, honestly aren't all classes like this once you boil it down?

    DK - Warrior that has access to Warlock abilities flavoured with Necromancy.
    Monk - Shaman/Rogue mix that has uses Martial Arts
    DH- Rogue that has access to Warlock abilities


    Paladin- Warrior that has access to Priest abilities
    Druid - Mix of Warrior, Rogue, Mage and Priest in one class. Even uses their resource systems

  3. #83
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Let's push this discussion forward a bit.

    Here are the lore characters associated with the expansion classes:

    Lich King/Arthas: Death Knight


    Chen Stormstout:Monk


    Illidan Stormrage: Demon Hunter


    What lore character could represent the Necromancer class?

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So how would a Necromancer's "soul" abilities differ from the Warlock's? Warlocks use Soul Drain and used to use Harvest of Souls to generate Soul Shards that they could use to perform abilities. They also have abilities like Soul Swap, Soulstone, Soul Leach, etc. How would a Necromancer be different than that?

    Also when you say "no permanent pets" does that mean that we're looking at pretty much what Demonology does with their swarms of temporary demons that they throw out in their rotation, or are we looking at something more akin to DKs with Apocalypse, Gargoyle, or Frostwyrm's Fury, essentially summoned minions with 30-60 second cool downs?
    Neither to your last question.
    I'd pretty much prefer Necromancers aren't 'Summoners.' Like I said in the last bit, how about literally reanimating the enemy you just killed for 2min? Maybe up to 3 of them? So that way you gather unique undead-minions for every unique encounter. Not a ghoul, just the reanimated corpse of the Trogg, Vampire, Raptor, whatever.

    To your first though, I have faith in Blizzard's creative capabilities of designing unique Abilities without getting caught up on the word "Soul" as you just did.
    I don't even need the Necromancer to be called "Necromancer" they can make it a "Soulshaper" or something, Anima class. Offensive/Healing.

    I also don't get caught up on spell overlap, having played all of the classes in WoW and noticing how many spells across classes are reskins anyway. It's a part of the game already, has been and -always- will be.

    What really overrides all of that for most people though, is visual aesthetic while playing. You're right, Warlocks have some Soul spells, but they just turned them Purple/Green indicating only Fel/Void presence.

    How about lovely Death Spirals of vibrant blue again like it used to be in a new class? Red as well. Think Argus, Shadowlands Anima.
    Last edited by Archmage Xaxxas; 2020-04-28 at 07:39 PM.
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  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Let's push this discussion forward a bit.

    Here are the lore characters associated with the expansion classes:

    Lich King/Arthas: Death Knight


    Chen Stormstout:Monk


    Illidan Stormrage: Demon Hunter


    What lore character could represent the Necromancer class?
    Grand Apothecary Putress
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Grand_Apot...ss_Cropped.jpg

  6. #86
    Their damage specs could float around minions and dots, preferably debuffs that can give them some utility. A healing spec could fit in as well that does some self sacrificing to heal others and they have to re-heal themselves with a unique resource or some life-drain spells.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  7. #87
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    An Alchemist?

  8. #88
    Herald of the Titans Rendark's Avatar
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    The way i would want a Necromancer to play would be like the D2 necro. Just summon 20 skeletons and maybe one big flesh golem to dps for you as you cast buffs and resummon skeletons if they die. Something like the Overlord games where you point at something and they attack it.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    An Alchemist?
    He literally wanted to plague bomb everything and turn every living being into some form of undeath. kind of the perfect example of an Necromancer.

  10. #90
    My preference at this point would simply to use the concept of "Class Skins" to fufill new character concepts. Create new art, animations and sounds with existing class mechanics as the base to prevent balance, gearing and talent issues.

    This would allow Blizzard to allow players looking for concepts like Necromancers, Tinkers, Dark Rangers, etc... to have an opportunity to play an approximation of such a class without the need have to go through the complete class design process. We could theoretically get multiple class skins in an expnsion this way.

    If we want to look purely at a brand new class, I would like them to look at how Age of Conan handled the Necromancer. It was avery tactical summoning class that gave quite a few summoning options to adapt to situations and control the battlefield.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    My issue with the concept of Blood healing for Necromancers is that it's pretty much exactly what a DK would have if it was ranged instead of melee, since a ranged class wouldn't be able to use healing to tank.

    In short, it's a pretty unoriginal idea in general.
    Then use an original idea like Alchemy-based healing, which Necromancers are associated with. It was the Necromancers who manufactured the plague, by studying Alchemy in Scholomance.

    It is also the use of Alchemy which created the spore-centric healing monstrosity of Naxxramas, Loatheb.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    Grand Apothecary Putress
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Let's push this discussion forward a bit.

    What lore character could represent the Necromancer class?
    It would be KT it's not even a discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I mean, honestly aren't all classes like this once you boil it down?

    DK - Warrior that has access to Warlock abilities flavoured with Necromancy.
    Monk - Shaman/Rogue mix that has uses Martial Arts
    DH- Rogue that has access to Warlock abilities

    Paladin- Warrior that has access to Priest abilities
    No? DKs have scourge abilities because they're based on scourge heroes.
    I don't even vaguely get where you are going with monk, because they have energy? They are neither thematically or mechanically similar, like at all.
    Dh don't use 'warlock' abilities either, meta was the DH's ult from WCIII
    Paladins are literally priests wearing armour (lore-wise), so yes that is true.
    Last edited by Saltysquidoon; 2020-04-28 at 08:23 PM.

  13. #93
    Huggable Lemon Friend LemonDemonGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Let's push this discussion forward a bit.

    Here are the lore characters associated with the expansion classes:

    Lich King/Arthas: Death Knight


    Chen Stormstout:Monk


    Illidan Stormrage: Demon Hunter


    What lore character could represent the Necromancer class?
    Bwonsamdi maybe? He's a literal God of death and he's not associated with the Scourge. Plus he has uniquely colored teal blue/green magic
    Guess it's time you have plugged in all your nightlights....

  14. #94
    Personally I think one way a Necromancer could differentiate itself from Warlock at least visually is to have the main class wide spells use the color Maldraxxus Anima uses, and for a few gameplay-wise ideas, well instead of having multiple specialized minions like Warlocks, and to a lesser extant DKs, they have 2-3 minions that they can customize into multiple specific roles, like a skeleton that can be a warrior or an archer, and an Abomination that can use the classic hook and cleaver(more crowd control) or have maces for hands like we've seen in Maldraxxus(more damage), as well as the spells using nearby corpses that others have suggested, as for the plagues they could be implemented to be debuffs that spread to nearby enemies rather than the stacking debuffs Aff Locks use
    specs I could see an ice centric one that plays into darker themes than Mage does, similar to how Destro comes of as a darker version of Fire, one that goes deeper into the raising undead from nearby corpses and similar spells, and finally a healer spec, probably not using blood as Blizz originally wanted Mistweaver Monks to have red healing spells but they ended up confusing testers leading to the light green they use today, so a healer Necro would most likely have a soul theme

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    It would be KT it's not even a discussion.
    I know how is this even a question

  15. #95
    There has been no ideas from the pro- side that are enough to justify necromancer existing. It's not as simple as "I want a healer/mage that does their damage with necromantic power." It has to have a distinct flavor for gameplay. No suggestion that doesn't have that is going to be successful argument for its existence. If you don't have that, it's not worth the time. Basically, you need to answer, "What does their mastery do?" and it can't be the same thing that someone else's mastery does.

    For the anti- side: Yes, you can be reductionist and say X is Y with Z, but you can do that to the point of saying "Video games are just data entry." It's just not a good argument.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I don't even vaguely get where you are going with monk, because they have energy? They are neither thematically or mechanically similar, like at all.
    Dave Kosak on Twitter - "Chi" is the Pandaren word for "Spirit," same energy that helps shaman heal, etc.

    Mistweavers heal through manipulating the 'Mists', which is water vapour. It's a subtle form of Water healing using internal Spirit rather than tapping into external forces. Same applies to all their elemental-based techniques, in lore monks are essentially internalized Shamans.

    Dh don't use 'warlock' abilities either, meta was the DH's ult from WCIII
    Green Flame questline explains where the Warlocks got the ability, and it was explained that Warlocks of the Black Harvest observed Illidan's technique and mimiced it for their own purpose. While the techniques are different themselves, they are derived from the same source through different techniques - one taught by Illidan, one observed and mimiced.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-04-28 at 08:33 PM.

  17. #97
    The archetypal Necromancer is a light armored, plague and disease wielding, undead raising magic caster. DK is a melee fighter first, so it's not an appropriate substitute. DK is the Paladin to the Priest. It's much cleaner to just do a Warlock enhancement vs design a completely new class and have to balance more specs or try to force a DK into becoming a caster via a 4th spec.

    First and foremost.... mechanics. Warlocks are mechanically inline with what a Necromancer is. Primarily a magic user, one who uses dark magic to raise undead, spread disease and rot their opponents with strong DoTs. We already have that foundation built with the Warlock. What's nice about this, vs a DK 4th spec is instead of 1 spec, you now have 3 specialized Necro specs:

    Demonology - Demons = Undead, and the spec becomes a Necromancer who focuses on controlling an undead army as his or her primary expertise.
    Destruction - Fire = Frost, destro would become the equivalent of a Lich, and let people explore a Kel'Thuzad-style Necromancer.
    Affliction - Shadow/Void based DoTs = Blood/Disease based DoTs, this is the DoT based Necromancer who would prefer to rot away opponents with disease and poison.

    Shadowlands would be a perfect time to add something like this. I'll list out some examples of specific changes I think would happen, and these art assets already exist in game and many more options are being added in the upcoming expansion.

    Your Demons will convert to Undead:
    Voidwalker (tank) - Skeletal Warrior
    Felhunter (interrupt/dispell) - Skeletal Assassin
    Succubus (cc/invis) - Skeletal Archer
    Felguard (AOE dps) - Abomination with radiating plague damage.

    Grimoire of Supremacy can jack up all of those base models to use some of the really cool Shadowlands undead minions.


    Void/Shadow magic and Fel/Fire magic becomes Blood and Frost:
    Incinerate - Icy Bolt
    Immolate - Deathchill
    Cataclysm (Talent) - Death and Decay
    Corruption - Plague
    etc

    Some things still fit just fine:
    Drain Life / Soul
    Life Tap
    Ritual of Summoning
    Curses
    etc

    My end argument is that I view a Necromancer as primarily a magic user. And I view Warlocks as a Mage who will use forbidden magics. I simply view Necromancer as a specific TYPE of Warlock. A single glyph that modifies the flavor of your spells basically completely fulfills the fantasy.
    Last edited by ro9ue; 2022-04-26 at 09:27 PM.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Dave Kosak on Twitter - "Chi" is the Pandaren word for "Spirit," same energy that helps shaman heal, etc.

    Mistweavers heal through manipulating the 'Mists', which is water vapour. It's a subtle form of Water healing using internal Spirit rather than tapping into external forces. Same applies to all their elemental-based techniques, in lore monks are essentially internalized Shamans.



    Green Flame questline explains where the Warlocks got the ability, and it was explained that Warlocks of the Black Harvest observed Illidan's technique and mimiced it for their own purpose. While the techniques are different themselves, they are derived from the same source through different techniques - one taught by Illidan, one observed and mimiced.
    Personally I think Warlock could have their own version of Metamorphosis with multiple thing separating them for example something like Warlocks meta being more monstrous and perhaps having a mechanic where you can stay in it permanently but at a certain point it has a mechanic where it causes more harm than good to fit thematically with Warlocks pursuing power at great risk to themselves

  19. #99
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    He literally wanted to plague bomb everything and turn every living being into some form of undeath. kind of the perfect example of an Necromancer.
    Yeah, but he's not using necromancy, he's using science and alchemy to develop a plague.

    He's also dead. I really can't imagine them developing an expansion around his character.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    My preference at this point would simply to use the concept of "Class Skins" to fufill new character concepts. Create new art, animations and sounds with existing class mechanics as the base to prevent balance, gearing and talent issues.

    This would allow Blizzard to allow players looking for concepts like Necromancers, Tinkers, Dark Rangers, etc... to have an opportunity to play an approximation of such a class without the need have to go through the complete class design process. We could theoretically get multiple class skins in an expnsion this way.

    If we want to look purely at a brand new class, I would like them to look at how Age of Conan handled the Necromancer. It was avery tactical summoning class that gave quite a few summoning options to adapt to situations and control the battlefield.
    Tinker really wouldn't work as a class skin.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    I've been consistent on this for years. Necromancer = Warlock Glyph.



    The archetypal Necromancer is a light armored, plague and disease wielding, undead raising magic caster. DK is a melee fighter first, so it's not an appropriate substitute. DK is the Paladin to the Priest. It's much cleaner to just do a Warlock enhancement vs design a completely new class and mechanics or try to force a DK into becoming a caster.

    First and foremost.... mechanics. Warlocks are mechanically inline with what a Necromancer is. Primarily a magic user, one who uses dark magic to raise undead, spread disease and rot their opponents with strong DoTs. You don't have to design a more spell focused spec for DK. You just reflavor the Warlock, and each spec becomes a specialized Necro:

    Demonology - Demons = Undead, and the spec becomes a Necromancer who focuses on controlling an undead army as his or her primary expertise.
    Destruction - Fire = Frost, destro would become the equivalent of a Lich, and let people explore a Kel'Thuzad-style Necromancer.
    Affliction - Shadow/Void based DoTs = Blood/Disease based DoTs, this is the DoT based Necromancer who would prefer to rot away opponents with disease and poison.

    Shadowlands would be a perfect time to add something like this. I'll list out some examples of specific changes I think would happen, and these art assets already exist in game and many more options are being added in the upcoming expansion.

    Your Demons will convert to Undead:
    Voidwalker (tank) - Skeletal Warrior
    Felhunter (interrupt/dispell) - Skeletal Assassin
    Succubus (cc/invis) - Skeletal Archer
    Felguard (AOE dps) - Abomination with radiating plague damage.

    Grimoire of Supremacy can jack up all of those base models to use some of the really cool Shadowlands undead minions.


    Void/Shadow magic and Fel/Fire magic becomes Blood and Frost:
    Incinerate - Icy Bolt
    Immolate - Deathchill
    Cataclysm (Talent) - Death and Decay
    Corruption - Plague
    etc

    Some things still fit just fine:
    Drain Life / Soul
    Life Tap
    Ritual of Summoning
    Curses
    etc

    My end argument is that I view a Necromancer as primarily a magic user. And I view Warlocks as a Mage who will use forbidden magics. I simply view Necromancer as a specific TYPE of Warlock. A single glyph that modifies the flavor of your spells basically completely fulfills the fantasy.
    Yeah, that's a very good idea actually.

  20. #100
    This is just a thinly veiled attempt by Teriz to shit on another class other than tinker. And since he lumps any character into his tinker ideas if they use a single somewhat tech skill even when in lore they are labeled as something else here's my less traditional necromancer concept:


    Blood binder- Healing spec: uses blood magic to heal allies and damage enemies.

    Spirit binder- The spirit binder is like a mix between a hunter and druid. You are able to possess(tame) non- named humanoids. You can then either use them as a pet or possess them and use their abilities becoming a tank, melee, healer, or what ever spec that humanoid possesses. Your actual body then follows you around like a zombie unable to attack.

    Corpse Keeper- More traditional dps necomancer spec with tons of minions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post


    Tinker really wouldn't work as a class skin.
    Tinker could easliy fit as a druid class skin with guns. Moonkin elextricity and bombs, cat and bear 2 diff mechs, heal ray, bandages and potions for healing.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-04-28 at 08:46 PM.

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