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  1. #101
    There has been no ideas from the pro- side that are enough to justify necromancer existing. It's not as simple as "I want a healer/mage that does their damage with necromantic power." It has to have a distinct flavor for gameplay. No suggestion that doesn't have that is going to be successful argument for its existence. If you don't have that, it's not worth the time. Basically, you need to answer, "What does their mastery do?" and it can't be the same thing that someone else's mastery does.

    For the anti- side: Yes, you can be reductionist and say X is Y with Z, but you can do that to the point of saying "Video games are just data entry." It's just not a good argument.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I don't even vaguely get where you are going with monk, because they have energy? They are neither thematically or mechanically similar, like at all.
    Dave Kosak on Twitter - "Chi" is the Pandaren word for "Spirit," same energy that helps shaman heal, etc.

    Mistweavers heal through manipulating the 'Mists', which is water vapour. It's a subtle form of Water healing using internal Spirit rather than tapping into external forces. Same applies to all their elemental-based techniques, in lore monks are essentially internalized Shamans.

    Dh don't use 'warlock' abilities either, meta was the DH's ult from WCIII
    Green Flame questline explains where the Warlocks got the ability, and it was explained that Warlocks of the Black Harvest observed Illidan's technique and mimiced it for their own purpose. While the techniques are different themselves, they are derived from the same source through different techniques - one taught by Illidan, one observed and mimiced.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-04-28 at 08:33 PM.

  3. #103
    I've been consistent on this for years. Necromancer = Warlock Glyph.



    The archetypal Necromancer is a light armored, plague and disease wielding, undead raising magic caster. DK is a melee fighter first, so it's not an appropriate substitute. DK is the Paladin to the Priest. It's much cleaner to just do a Warlock enhancement vs design a completely new class and have to balance more specs or try to force a DK into becoming a caster via a 4th spec.

    First and foremost.... mechanics. Warlocks are mechanically inline with what a Necromancer is. Primarily a magic user, one who uses dark magic to raise undead, spread disease and rot their opponents with strong DoTs. We already have that foundation built with the Warlock. What's nice about this, vs a DK 4th spec is instead of 1 spec, you now have 3 specialized Necro specs:

    Demonology - Demons = Undead, and the spec becomes a Necromancer who focuses on controlling an undead army as his or her primary expertise.
    Destruction - Fire = Frost, destro would become the equivalent of a Lich, and let people explore a Kel'Thuzad-style Necromancer.
    Affliction - Shadow/Void based DoTs = Blood/Disease based DoTs, this is the DoT based Necromancer who would prefer to rot away opponents with disease and poison.

    Shadowlands would be a perfect time to add something like this. I'll list out some examples of specific changes I think would happen, and these art assets already exist in game and many more options are being added in the upcoming expansion.

    Your Demons will convert to Undead:
    Voidwalker (tank) - Skeletal Warrior
    Felhunter (interrupt/dispell) - Skeletal Assassin
    Succubus (cc/invis) - Skeletal Archer
    Felguard (AOE dps) - Abomination with radiating plague damage.

    Grimoire of Supremacy can jack up all of those base models to use some of the really cool Shadowlands undead minions.


    Void/Shadow magic and Fel/Fire magic becomes Blood and Frost:
    Incinerate - Icy Bolt
    Immolate - Deathchill
    Cataclysm (Talent) - Death and Decay
    Corruption - Plague
    etc

    Some things still fit just fine:
    Drain Life / Soul
    Life Tap
    Ritual of Summoning
    Curses
    etc

    My end argument is that I view a Necromancer as primarily a magic user. And I view Warlocks as a Mage who will use forbidden magics. I simply view Necromancer as a specific TYPE of Warlock. A single glyph that modifies the flavor of your spells basically completely fulfills the fantasy.
    Last edited by ro9ue; 2020-04-28 at 08:43 PM.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Dave Kosak on Twitter - "Chi" is the Pandaren word for "Spirit," same energy that helps shaman heal, etc.

    Mistweavers heal through manipulating the 'Mists', which is water vapour. It's a subtle form of Water healing using internal Spirit rather than tapping into external forces. Same applies to all their elemental-based techniques, in lore monks are essentially internalized Shamans.



    Green Flame questline explains where the Warlocks got the ability, and it was explained that Warlocks of the Black Harvest observed Illidan's technique and mimiced it for their own purpose. While the techniques are different themselves, they are derived from the same source through different techniques - one taught by Illidan, one observed and mimiced.
    Personally I think Warlock could have their own version of Metamorphosis with multiple thing separating them for example something like Warlocks meta being more monstrous and perhaps having a mechanic where you can stay in it permanently but at a certain point it has a mechanic where it causes more harm than good to fit thematically with Warlocks pursuing power at great risk to themselves

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    He literally wanted to plague bomb everything and turn every living being into some form of undeath. kind of the perfect example of an Necromancer.
    Yeah, but he's not using necromancy, he's using science and alchemy to develop a plague.

    He's also dead. I really can't imagine them developing an expansion around his character.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    My preference at this point would simply to use the concept of "Class Skins" to fufill new character concepts. Create new art, animations and sounds with existing class mechanics as the base to prevent balance, gearing and talent issues.

    This would allow Blizzard to allow players looking for concepts like Necromancers, Tinkers, Dark Rangers, etc... to have an opportunity to play an approximation of such a class without the need have to go through the complete class design process. We could theoretically get multiple class skins in an expnsion this way.

    If we want to look purely at a brand new class, I would like them to look at how Age of Conan handled the Necromancer. It was avery tactical summoning class that gave quite a few summoning options to adapt to situations and control the battlefield.
    Tinker really wouldn't work as a class skin.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    I've been consistent on this for years. Necromancer = Warlock Glyph.



    The archetypal Necromancer is a light armored, plague and disease wielding, undead raising magic caster. DK is a melee fighter first, so it's not an appropriate substitute. DK is the Paladin to the Priest. It's much cleaner to just do a Warlock enhancement vs design a completely new class and mechanics or try to force a DK into becoming a caster.

    First and foremost.... mechanics. Warlocks are mechanically inline with what a Necromancer is. Primarily a magic user, one who uses dark magic to raise undead, spread disease and rot their opponents with strong DoTs. You don't have to design a more spell focused spec for DK. You just reflavor the Warlock, and each spec becomes a specialized Necro:

    Demonology - Demons = Undead, and the spec becomes a Necromancer who focuses on controlling an undead army as his or her primary expertise.
    Destruction - Fire = Frost, destro would become the equivalent of a Lich, and let people explore a Kel'Thuzad-style Necromancer.
    Affliction - Shadow/Void based DoTs = Blood/Disease based DoTs, this is the DoT based Necromancer who would prefer to rot away opponents with disease and poison.

    Shadowlands would be a perfect time to add something like this. I'll list out some examples of specific changes I think would happen, and these art assets already exist in game and many more options are being added in the upcoming expansion.

    Your Demons will convert to Undead:
    Voidwalker (tank) - Skeletal Warrior
    Felhunter (interrupt/dispell) - Skeletal Assassin
    Succubus (cc/invis) - Skeletal Archer
    Felguard (AOE dps) - Abomination with radiating plague damage.

    Grimoire of Supremacy can jack up all of those base models to use some of the really cool Shadowlands undead minions.


    Void/Shadow magic and Fel/Fire magic becomes Blood and Frost:
    Incinerate - Icy Bolt
    Immolate - Deathchill
    Cataclysm (Talent) - Death and Decay
    Corruption - Plague
    etc

    Some things still fit just fine:
    Drain Life / Soul
    Life Tap
    Ritual of Summoning
    Curses
    etc

    My end argument is that I view a Necromancer as primarily a magic user. And I view Warlocks as a Mage who will use forbidden magics. I simply view Necromancer as a specific TYPE of Warlock. A single glyph that modifies the flavor of your spells basically completely fulfills the fantasy.
    Yeah, that's a very good idea actually.

  6. #106
    This is just a thinly veiled attempt by Teriz to shit on another class other than tinker. And since he lumps any character into his tinker ideas if they use a single somewhat tech skill even when in lore they are labeled as something else here's my less traditional necromancer concept:


    Blood binder- Healing spec: uses blood magic to heal allies and damage enemies.

    Spirit binder- The spirit binder is like a mix between a hunter and druid. You are able to possess(tame) non- named humanoids. You can then either use them as a pet or possess them and use their abilities becoming a tank, melee, healer, or what ever spec that humanoid possesses. Your actual body then follows you around like a zombie unable to attack.

    Corpse Keeper- More traditional dps necomancer spec with tons of minions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post


    Tinker really wouldn't work as a class skin.
    Tinker could easliy fit as a druid class skin with guns. Moonkin elextricity and bombs, cat and bear 2 diff mechs, heal ray, bandages and potions for healing.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-04-28 at 08:46 PM.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Psykho View Post
    Personally I think Warlock could have their own version of Metamorphosis with multiple thing separating them for example something like Warlocks meta being more monstrous and perhaps having a mechanic where you can stay in it permanently but at a certain point it has a mechanic where it causes more harm than good to fit thematically with Warlocks pursuing power at great risk to themselves
    I always thought so too. I felt the Warlock was mechanically different enough to warrant having both, but Blizzard begged to differ.

    I mean honestly the Warlock's use of Meta was always Ranged, while the DH's use is modified to be for Melee. That right there is enough of a difference.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Tinker could easliy fit as a druid class skin with guns. Moonkin elextricity and bombs, cat and bear 2 diff mechs, heal ray, bandages and potions for healing.
    Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. I think it translates very well, all we need are the aesthetics.

  8. #108
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Tinker could easliy fit as a druid class skin with guns. Moonkin elextricity and bombs, cat and bear 2 diff mechs, heal ray, bandages and potions for healing.
    What bombs do Moonkins shoot out? Also a Mech using cat and bear mechanics wouldn't work. The Mechs are loaded with ranged abilities and very few melee attacks.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post

    Tinker could easliy fit as a druid class skin with guns. Moonkin elextricity and bombs, cat and bear 2 diff mechs, heal ray, bandages and potions for healing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post

    Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. I think it translates very well, all we need are the aesthetics.

    Yeah but you have to consider the theme of the class itself. Why would a Druid, a nature-based caster who transforms into animals and trees, willingly embrace technology that uses natural resources (what they generally protect and guard) as fuel. It completely goes against the core philosophy of the class.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    What bombs do Moonkins shoot out? Also a Mech using cat and bear mechanics wouldn't work. The Mechs are loaded with ranged abilities and very few melee attacks.
    you don't understand what a class skin is do you? The abilities appearances would work well with electricity and explosions. You were willing to accept ghost busters as tinkers and now ur crything that the mechs wouldnt have range skills????? Growl is a ranged ability, and you can even get moonkin skills in cat and bear form like moonfire. Also moonkin could be the ranged mech.

    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Yeah but you have to consider the theme of the class itself. Why would a Druid, a nature-based caster who transforms into animals and trees, willingly embrace technology that uses natural resources (what they generally protect and guard) as fuel. It completely goes against the core philosophy of the class.
    The whole point of a class skin is to change a class into something its not without altering the actual abilities it uses. You would no longer be playing a druid you would be playing a tinker, just like if you turned a lock into a necro.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-04-28 at 09:10 PM.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    I've been consistent on this for years. Necromancer = Warlock Glyph.



    The archetypal Necromancer is a light armored, plague and disease wielding, undead raising magic caster. DK is a melee fighter first, so it's not an appropriate substitute. DK is the Paladin to the Priest. It's much cleaner to just do a Warlock enhancement vs design a completely new class and have to balance more specs or try to force a DK into becoming a caster via a 4th spec.

    First and foremost.... mechanics. Warlocks are mechanically inline with what a Necromancer is. Primarily a magic user, one who uses dark magic to raise undead, spread disease and rot their opponents with strong DoTs. We already have that foundation built with the Warlock. What's nice about this, vs a DK 4th spec is instead of 1 spec, you now have 3 specialized Necro specs:

    Demonology - Demons = Undead, and the spec becomes a Necromancer who focuses on controlling an undead army as his or her primary expertise.
    Destruction - Fire = Frost, destro would become the equivalent of a Lich, and let people explore a Kel'Thuzad-style Necromancer.
    Affliction - Shadow/Void based DoTs = Blood/Disease based DoTs, this is the DoT based Necromancer who would prefer to rot away opponents with disease and poison.

    Shadowlands would be a perfect time to add something like this. I'll list out some examples of specific changes I think would happen, and these art assets already exist in game and many more options are being added in the upcoming expansion.

    Your Demons will convert to Undead:
    Voidwalker (tank) - Skeletal Warrior
    Felhunter (interrupt/dispell) - Skeletal Assassin
    Succubus (cc/invis) - Skeletal Archer
    Felguard (AOE dps) - Abomination with radiating plague damage.

    Grimoire of Supremacy can jack up all of those base models to use some of the really cool Shadowlands undead minions.


    Void/Shadow magic and Fel/Fire magic becomes Blood and Frost:
    Incinerate - Icy Bolt
    Immolate - Deathchill
    Cataclysm (Talent) - Death and Decay
    Corruption - Plague
    etc

    Some things still fit just fine:
    Drain Life / Soul
    Life Tap
    Ritual of Summoning
    Curses
    etc

    My end argument is that I view a Necromancer as primarily a magic user. And I view Warlocks as a Mage who will use forbidden magics. I simply view Necromancer as a specific TYPE of Warlock. A single glyph that modifies the flavor of your spells basically completely fulfills the fantasy.
    Yeah that's what necromancers really should be. They can and should do the same with the other classes too. A lot of "flavour" can be added to the game without ruining the gameplay.

    Necromancers could also work as a spec, but yeah as a class they're definitely nonsense since we've got warlocks and DK's

  12. #112
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    you don't understand what a class skin is do you? The abilities appearances would work well with electricity and explosions. You were willing to accept ghost busters as tinkers and now ur crything that the mechs wouldnt have range skills????? Growl is a ranged ability, and you can even get moonkin skills in cat and bear form like moonfire. Also moonkin could be the ranged mech.
    In order for that to work, you would have to create new animations and hitboxes for the Mech forms and their abilities. At that point you might as well be making a new class.

    I was willing to accept Ghostbusters as Tinkers if that's the direction Blizzard wanted to go. However, a Tinker being an alternate version of a Druid doesn't make sense.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    In order for that to work, you would have to create new animations and hitboxes for the Mech forms and their abilities. At that point you might as well be making a new class.

    I was willing to accept Ghostbusters as Tinkers if that's the direction Blizzard wanted to go. However, a Tinker being an alternate version of a Druid doesn't make sense.
    Why do you assume they would need to change the hitboxes? the mechs could easily be put in the druids normal hit box. New animations like dreadstalkers needed to be changed to skeltons?

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Yeah but you have to consider the theme of the class itself. Why would a Druid, a nature-based caster who transforms into animals and trees, willingly embrace technology that uses natural resources (what they generally protect and guard) as fuel. It completely goes against the core philosophy of the class.
    Because the concept is a class reskin; it is a new class with a new theme that reuses existing gameplay.

    Instead of a Gnome and Goblin Druid option, the Druid's gameplay would be translated completely into a Tinker.

    Guardian- Tanky Mech form, using Rage mechanics Guardian spec gameplay. Abilities like Iron Fur and Frenzied Regen would become Deflection and Combat Maintenance.

    Balance - Artillery Mech form, using Rockets and Lasers to balance between Heat and Exhaust resource mechanics. Treants would become Clockwork robots.

    Feral -> Shredder - Combat form that utilizes ambush techniques using a more compact version of a Robogoblin, almost like a Stealth Suit. They could even be riding atop mechanized mounts like the Mechanostriders or Mechanospiders.

    The gameplay would be preserved while giving all new aesthetics to open up to different races that wouldn't normally have access to this gameplay.

    The same can be done for other like concepts. Demon Hunters -> Dragonsworn for example would allow races like Tauren and Gnomes to have access to Demon Hunter style gameplay, flavoured by their connection to Dragons instead (Ebonhorn, Chromie). This could even be given a unique starting questline to show that these characters are actually Dragons in disguise as these races. Another idea is Priests to Bards (Wardrummers), allowing Orcs to have a Priest option while flavouring it to the Wardrummers of Warcraft 3 (Kodo Riders) and to the Warsong Clan.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-04-28 at 09:21 PM.

  15. #115
    Necromancers can be unique by having a spec revolving around bone-themed spells that do physical damage, giving us another physical ranged spec to accompany hunters.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    The whole point of a class skin is to change a class into something its not without altering the actual abilities it uses. You would no longer be playing a druid you would be playing a tinker, just like if you turned a lock into a necro.
    So how would that work? So you start out as a Druid and then later on you drastically change what the class is? Do you add a 13th class slot on character creation for Tinker but it's just a Druid mechanically?

    It's not like Warlock into Necro at all. A Necro is pretty much already a Warlock... a magic caster that uses dark and forbidden magics. The theme isn't destroyed its just a reflavor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because the concept is a class reskin; it is a new class with a new theme that reuses existing gameplay.

    Instead of a Gnome and Goblin Druid option, the Druid's gameplay would be translated completely into a Tinker.

    Guardian- Tanky Mech form, using Rage mechanics Guardian spec gameplay. Abilities like Iron Fur and Frenzied Regen would become Deflection and Combat Maintenance.

    Balance - Artillery Mech form, using Rockets and Lasers to balance between Heat and Exhaust resource mechanics. Treants would become Clockwork robots.

    The gameplay would be preserved while giving all new aesthetics to open up to different races that wouldn't normally have access to this gameplay.

    The same can be done for other like concepts. Demon Hunters -> Dragonsworn for example would allow races like Tauren and Gnomes to have access to Demon Hunter style gameplay, flavoured by their connection to Dragons instead (Ebonhorn, Chromie). This could even be given a unique starting questline to show that these characters are actually Dragons in disguise as these races. Another idea is Priests to Bards (Wardrummers), allowing Orcs to have a Priest option while flavouring it to the Wardrummers of Warcraft 3 (Kodo Riders) and to the Warsong Clan.
    So the question I asked the other person:

    How does it work? Do you turn a Druid into the Tinker at some point? Or do they add a whole other class slot for a mechanically identical new class, but it's called Tinker instead?

    Btw I'm not arguing that the mechanics can't be translated I just don't see how it's implemented in a clean way.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Why do you assume they would need to change the hitboxes? the mechs could easily be put in the druids normal hit box. New animations like dreadstalkers needed to be changed to skeltons?
    Because there's no Druid equivalent to established Tinker abilities like Pocket Factory, Rock-It-Turret, or Xplodium Charge. Also the mechs aren't purely melee, and have never been purely melee. Even Gazlowe's mech in Island Expeditions is mostly ranged. You can't get that from Bear or Cat forms that are almost entirely melee.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2020-04-28 at 09:26 PM.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    So how would that work? So you start out as a Druid and then later on you drastically change what the class is? Do you add a 13th class slot on character creation for Tinker but it's just a Druid mechanically?

    It's not like Warlock into Necro at all. A Necro is pretty much already a Warlock... a magic caster that uses dark and forbidden magics. The theme isn't destroyed its just a reflavor.
    The very first "class skins" to exist in games and stuff were things like dark paladins who used paladin skills but skinned as evil the entire theme of being a holy warrior is subverted and changed into being an unholy warrior its total opposite. And what would the opposite of a nature lover be? A tech lover.

    On the character select screen the class option for druid could be replaced with tinker for gnomes, goblins, mechangnomes and what ever other non druid races they wanted to add to it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because there's no Druid equivalent to established Tinker abilities like Pocket Factory, Rock-It-Turret, or Xplodium Charge. Also the mechs aren't purely melee, and have never been purely melee. Even Gazlowe's mech in Island Expeditions is mostly ranged. You can't get that from Bear of Cat forms that almost entirely melee.
    AS I have stated before lorewise Gazlowe is not a tinker nor has he ever been. And what fucking tinker has ever been a mother fucking ghost buster?????? And why do you insist on using non lore abilites in your fantasy then cry when someone puts something new into a necro or what ever?

    Pocket factory could become starfall and have mini clockwork gnomes/goblins raining down from the sky from a floating factory.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-04-28 at 09:31 PM.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    Necromancers can be unique by having a spec revolving around bone-themed spells that do physical damage, giving us another physical ranged spec to accompany hunters.
    Necromancer issue aside.

    A physical caster would be a headache to balance in pvpa and pvp. Armour, in general, is in such a weird place right now.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    So the question I asked the other person:

    How does it work? Do you turn a Druid into the Tinker at some point? Or do they add a whole other class slot for a mechanically identical new class, but it's called Tinker instead?

    Btw I'm not arguing that the mechanics can't be translated I just don't see how it's implemented in a clean way.
    Answered above - New Class with New theme.

    It has nothing to do with the Druid at all other than use it's gameplay. Gnomes and Goblins don't have access to the Druid class, and it would be an option that would be exclusive to them. In the case of existing Druid classes that want to roll a Tinker, then they would have to roll a new alt. It'd be the same as Allied Races (without the Race Change pay option). Further incentives could be explored, like fast-tracking levels through a special starting zone.

    Like I said, it's effectively a glorified reskin with all gameplay translated. The only exceptions would be Talents, I'd say, which could be completely new and exclusive for the Tinker. By all means, it would be treated as its own class, while keeping color coding of its base class for Raid purposes (unless gameplay ends up being very different). The idea is a more extreme version of the current Hunter treatment for Gnomes and Goblins, where they have access to Mech pets. So instead of any connection to Druidism, they would be redirected to their own 'Dreamgrove'.

    The concept is basically reusing existing specs and gameplay to open up to multiple new classes at once, so that the game's balance wouldn't be affected by the introduction of completely new mechanics. At most it would be balanced around new talents at most, and that's only in the instances where new Talents are even warranted. Like in my example, Force of Nature (Treants) could be reappropriated as Pocket Factory (Clockwork Goblins) and it would generally be the same mechanically; with or without the Pocket Factory visual.

    As for items and gear, I would say they use generic Leather gear with the same stats as any other class. Like Monks, they could have special transmogs and heirlooms that allow them to retain the Tinker flavour through their journey. On top of that, you would likely be using Forms for most of your combat. Tier gear and such would simply be omitted for the interim, and I'm sure there could be a Legacy mechanics added to the game to accomodate for all 'Subclasses' doing old world content without losing out on anything specific like Legion's Artifacts or other specialized gear.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-04-28 at 09:40 PM.

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