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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There is a vast difference between new blood and never played a video game before. Levels are arbitrary from game to game. A level in WoW is different then Diablo 3 that is different then the Witcher 3. Etc. A person that just looks at a number and stops playing is never a person that will play longer term. Because they know nothing about what that number means and have already stopped.

    Because like I said 31 levels to go can take longer then 101 levels to go. Numbers are arbitrary. It is all about how fast or slow the developer of the game wants you to level. And not the level itself. The actual level only exists for gating content. Blizzard could allow you to level to 120 in 5 hours of play if they wanted.

    Would a person be equally as discouraged?
    Well sure they could, but to someone new to the game hearing that the cap is 120 will sound more daunting than 60. And I think it's unfair to say that someone daunted by that number would never play or play long term is a bit unfair. First impressions are important.

  2. #222
    The problem with having 120 levels is that there are not enough abilities or talents spread across those levels and the lack of difficulty while leveling. While leveling, you will not even use a bunch of the spells/abilities you get that are not focused on damage/tanking/healing. I'm never going to dispel on my Spriest while leveling because it's pointless. Nothing is threatening enough to make me feel like I need to dispel it. So, when you are given something like dispel when leveling a new character it feels like you got nothing at all, because you have to force yourself to use it. For many classes there are large swathes of the level up grind that feel like they're getting nothing at all. Since everything scales with you, you never get to feel more powerful either. Since all content outside of current expac is irrelevant, you never have a reason to go back to the content you have scaled past. This makes leveling FEEL like a bigger and longer slog than it actually is. So, you equip heirlooms to get it done faster! Except that with heirlooms most of the loot you get becomes vendor trash. So, now you have long periods of time between getting spells/abilities you'll regularly use and gear is pretty much pointless. This actually makes it feel WORSE. Then once you get to 100 you have 20 solid levels of getting absolutely nothing at all. Leveling in modern WoW is ironically more tedious than leveling in Classic! At least in Classic getting new gear gives you observable increases in power. Each level gives you something useful. The time it takes to complete quests and the danger of questing makes you feel something when you level up. If Blizzard can return to something similar while removing the more annoying and nonsensical stuff from Classic, I think they'll have a hit.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Protar95 View Post
    Well sure they could, but to someone new to the game hearing that the cap is 120 will sound more daunting than 60. And I think it's unfair to say that someone daunted by that number would never play or play long term is a bit unfair. First impressions are important.
    It isn't unfair. If they are going to be turned off of a game just because of a high number with out knowledge of the time it takes to get to that number then they will be turned off by any other aspect. Because things are not always what the seem. Leveling to 60 can take longer then leveling to 120. It isn't a universal thing that all game designers enforce. So a number is irrelevant with out the knowledge of what that number means.

    If a person brand new to the game is going to make decisions with out knowledge then I would say they are unlikely to keep playing or rather not the type of player that is good for the game.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #224
    I can't believe more than one person would think such a stupid thing.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It isn't unfair. If they are going to be turned off of a game just because of a high number without knowledge of the time it takes to get to that number then they will be turned off by any other aspect. Because things are not always what the seem. Leveling to 60 can take longer then leveling to 120. It isn't a universal thing that all game designers enforce. So a number is irrelevant without the knowledge of what that number means.

    If a person brand new to the game is going to make decisions without knowledge then I would say they are unlikely to keep playing or rather not the type of player that is good for the game.
    Most people make decisions without knowledge. The average person is not going to hear 120 levels and ask "how long does it take though?". The average person is going to hear 120 levels and immediately feel like that is a lot. Regardless of if you tell them it's fast they already have the impression that it's too much. It's basic human psychology. Very few people are going to take the time to listen to you explain why it's not really that bad because of X, Y, and Z. You may think "well I don't want to play with people like that anyway", and that's fine! But then you will have a very dead game.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by De Lupe View Post
    I see no downside with a permanent level 60 cap.

    Probably easier for them to do it each expansion than once every 3-4.

    As long as the old content is still soloable, even at it's highest difficulty, I'm good with it.
    That's sort of the downside, because it means you have to always get to the new level cap (i.e. buy the new expansion and level up through it) in order to any kind of farming of older content. It means MC will be scaled tot he same as Antorus or Nya'lotha. I certainly see a problem with that. Blizzard has already failed several times over on squishing and rescaling stuff repeatedly. Not to mention that this is another overt method Blizzard is employing to erode any kind of character progression to further grow their hamster wheel systems of "user engagement.
    I really would have preferred the GW2 method of handling both leveling up and end game progression without extending the level cap. The downside to that sort of system is that your developers can't be creatively bankrupt and actually put in effort to make something new each expansion, which Blizzard's team, apart from the art and music department, are completely incapable of doing.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by temple1906 View Post
    Most people make decisions without knowledge. The average person is not going to hear 120 levels and ask "how long does it take though?". The average person is going to hear 120 levels and immediately feel like that is a lot. Regardless of if you tell them it's fast they already have the impression that it's too much. It's basic human psychology. Very few people are going to take the time to listen to you explain why it's not really that bad because of X, Y, and Z. You may think "well I don't want to play with people like that anyway", and that's fine! But then you will have a very dead game.
    I think that is the difference between a person that plays video games and one that doesn't. Because levels are different in every game. 70 levels in The Witcher 3 are different then 70 levels in WoW. Different speeds, different XP required etc. If very few people are going to take the time to listen why level 120 isn't that high of a number then they also won't take the time to learn fight tactics. Class rotations. Gear choices. And all of the other things that require a knowledge beyond a surface impression.

    A good player requires the ability to understand and adapt. And no that won't make a very dead game because that is how it exists now and even with Classic. And both retail and classic are far from dead. 60 levels in retail are faster, and less XP required, then 60 levels in Classic. They mean different things. It also isn't basic psychology because instruction manuals and the like have existed for years. College degrees, job training, certifications etc are all humans learning to understand and do things that they otherwise did not.

    Even 60 in Shadowlands will be different then 60 now. It is a relative number. Experience and speed are what matter for levels. Your logic indicates that a player would enjoy leveling to 10 even if it took as long as it takes to get to 120 now. Because that low level is a greater impression then understanding anything else about the game.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by temple1906 View Post
    Most people make decisions without knowledge. The average person is not going to hear 120 levels and ask "how long does it take though?". The average person is going to hear 120 levels and immediately feel like that is a lot. Regardless of if you tell them it's fast they already have the impression that it's too much. It's basic human psychology. Very few people are going to take the time to listen to you explain why it's not really that bad because of X, Y, and Z. You may think "well I don't want to play with people like that anyway", and that's fine! But then you will have a very dead game.
    Just like those in favour of a level squish decided without knowledge that people will be discouraged from playing by a level cap of 120?

    I somewhat doubt that number even factors into the decision at all for the majority of new players, especially ones with no prior contact with MMOs, because the information is useless to them.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    No. Because of story. I can kill Argus with level 1 gear by being carried. Sure I'd die on the attempt but I'd still be part of the kill effort. That doesn't mean that Argus was killed by that level 1 weapon. Because story plays out independent of levels since you know levels are a purely mechanic creation. The levels that we as players earn do not exist in the lore of the game world.
    Well it's happening mechanically via Transmog. It's as if you're just copying the stats onto the weapon or armoe model or vice versa. Player can even RP they have defeated the boss with their barehands by finishing off the boss and unequipping their weapons according to their own accounts.

    I used the comparison with the artifact weapon vs a drop from level 85 just to bring up a concern here. Imagine skipping the whole artifact weapon storyline with new character then suddenly on a whim you decided to face Argus.

    Btw here's another complication, since all dungeons and raid scale equally there is an issue with the legacy drop setting. You have to be level 60 to be able to farm old contents because the dungeons and raid scales according to your level while on the current setting you can farm Black Temple and just be pulling everything and 1 shot them. In SL you will be having hard time doing that.
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2020-05-22 at 05:54 AM.

  10. #230
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    You mean Hard cap 60, so every expansion its just end game from the get go, going harder and harder until the last patch? without leveling in the first weeks and just, dungeonerring and unlocking new abilities? well

    yeah... makes sense. The sole purpose of leveling was just to grind time for players, now its not required, there is plenty of activities, that leveling became a chore until this extra exp. So probably blizz already understood that.

    I like the idea of being 60 forever but unlocking new talents or abilities (soulbinds/covenantabilities) specific for expansions.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    Well it's happening mechanically via Transmog. It's as if you're just copying the stats onto the weapon or armoe model or vice versa.
    Transmog does not copy stats. It applies a the image of something else. An artifact also was never required to defeat Argus. It isn't like with N'zoth and the cloak. You also do pretty much that now because leveling through Legion you skip a lot and have no artifact to power up. So you can go right to defeating Argus with out even doing much.

    Blizzard has also already addressed old raids and instances. You will still be able to solo them if you can solo it now. Blizzard addressed this back in November. If you are leveling in Pandaria it will scale 10 to 50. If you are not using "Chromie time" the content will be a certain level. This may or may not have changed. However Blizzard can easily address it with the "Legacy solo buff" that they already use to ensure raids that should be able to be done solo can be done solo.

    It is to early for this to be really tested on Alpha as any solo issues are usually fixed in later in the cycle.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #232
    I don't get why people would have a problem with this.
    New players probably play SL and the next espansion then. Existing can players can play whatever they want.

    Levels have no actuall bearing on the game. Lorewise there are no levels. This way you just keep the grind to a minimum to get to the actual game and it does not bloat back to 120... or forcing you to play expansions that make no sense to you whatsoever.

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    I don't get why people would have a problem with this.
    New players probably play SL and the next espansion then. Existing can players can play whatever they want.

    Levels have no actuall bearing on the game. Lorewise there are no levels. This way you just keep the grind to a minimum to get to the actual game and it does not bloat back to 120... or forcing you to play expansions that make no sense to you whatsoever.
    Here's are some possibilies:
    - retain the actually level-up scheme and add 10 levels
    - have a level crunch then add 5-10 levels on succeeding expac
    - have a level crunch and keep it a permanent feature.
    - completely remove leveling and have leveling experience from 1-10 like Baldur's Gate.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    Here's are some possibilies:
    - retain the actually level-up scheme and add 10 levels
    - have a level crunch then add 5-10 levels on succeeding expac
    - have a level crunch and keep it a permanent feature.
    - completely remove leveling and have leveling experience from 1-10 like Baldur's Gate.
    Baldurs Gate goes further. Just not in the first game. Sooo expansion levels
    ALso always felt extremly powerless in BG1 as you also did not get the higher spells etc.

    Throwing old expansions into the chromie time handels the whole weird timeline ok-ish. No real solution possible except a complete overhaul of the game every patch.
    Relevant zones can be updated if needed. Also an overhaul will come with the inevitable bitching of the playerbase

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It isn't unfair. If they are going to be turned off of a game just because of a high number with out knowledge of the time it takes to get to that number then they will be turned off by any other aspect. Because things are not always what the seem. Leveling to 60 can take longer then leveling to 120. It isn't a universal thing that all game designers enforce. So a number is irrelevant with out the knowledge of what that number means.

    If a person brand new to the game is going to make decisions with out knowledge then I would say they are unlikely to keep playing or rather not the type of player that is good for the game.
    Maybe some other aspect of the game would turn them off and make them quit. Or maybe that first impression of 120 levels sounding like a big investment of time is all that's stopping them getting into it. That will differ from person to person. It's Blizzards job to make sure that the game looks as appealing as possible to potential new players. Blizzard certainly isn't saying "well those customers aren't worth marketing to anyway, we'd rather not even try to make a profit off of them."

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Protar95 View Post
    Maybe some other aspect of the game would turn them off and make them quit. Or maybe that first impression of 120 levels sounding like a big investment of time is all that's stopping them getting into it. That will differ from person to person. It's Blizzards job to make sure that the game looks as appealing as possible to potential new players. Blizzard certainly isn't saying "well those customers aren't worth marketing to anyway, we'd rather not even try to make a profit off of them."
    You can't make a game appealing to people who judge based on a number with no knowledge of what that number actually means. 120 levels could take 1 hour to gain and yet you are saying people would still judge it as being to high. How do you design the game around that in order to get those people? Blizzard says types of customers are not worth designing for all the time.

    The problem is, and always will be, the people that superficially judge something with no knowledge.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You can't make a game appealing to people who judge based on a number with no knowledge of what that number actually means. 120 levels could take 1 hour to gain and yet you are saying people would still judge it as being to high. How do you design the game around that in order to get those people? Blizzard says types of customers are not worth designing for all the time.

    The problem is, and always will be, the people that superficially judge something with no knowledge.
    Having higher number of character level per expac:
    - it is more encouraging and a good marketing strategy for character boost/promo packages for pre-purchase
    - having higher number of character level would allow a greater range for interdispersal of content may it be rewards, talent, abilities vs having a lower ones i.e. 1-10 levels vs 1-25 vs 1-45 vs 1-50
    - the current implemented system known as level bracket is already in place which is currently effective. All it takes is continue to use it and just make minor adjustments vs a complete overhaul which takes too much effort, time, resources which can be smartly allocated to more important matters.
    - they may use this CL crunch on a latter expansion. Now is not the time thematically if they really have the need to.
    - 130 levels is still achievable and practical. What is not practical? Starting from level 85 and upto the max level is the interdispersal of ability, may it be in the form of ranks which they removed and introduced once again, perks which now are into incarnation of ability ranks, expac specific content for character customization which they scrap off by the end of the expansion instead of allowing the concept to get carried over to atleast two to three expac and make a bridging mechanic which absorb the said concept and being integral part, ie. Legionadaries could been improved by allowing it to be Azerite infused 8.+ or upgraded to have the effect of corruption in 8.3 and by 9.5 legionadaries be carried over to SL to be anima infused and reforged inside Torghast complete destroying the item,extracting the essence and carrying the effect to the new crafting system inside Torghast.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Baldurs Gate goes further. Just not in the first game. Sooo expansion levels
    ALso always felt extremly powerless in BG1 as you also did not get the higher spells etc.

    Throwing old expansions into the chromie time handels the whole weird timeline ok-ish. No real solution possible except a complete overhaul of the game every patch.
    Relevant zones can be updated if needed. Also an overhaul will come with the inevitable bitching of the playerbase
    That's not problem actually gameplay-wise or mechanics wise or storyline-wise. They have phasing tech since WotLK been using it ever since. They have quest to create instantiated scenarios to old areas having max level mobs inside it with scaling tech, they have level bracket in place ingeniously working positively for them and they may wait for an opportuned time to find a thematic timing for an expac and drop the bomb for a world revamp like they did in Cata and Legion. SL is too early for this max level crunch excuse..

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You can't make a game appealing to people who judge based on a number with no knowledge of what that number actually means. 120 levels could take 1 hour to gain and yet you are saying people would still judge it as being to high. How do you design the game around that in order to get those people? Blizzard says types of customers are not worth designing for all the time.

    The problem is, and always will be, the people that superficially judge something with no knowledge.
    Yes, you could make 120 levels last just one hour. But if you've never played wow before and hear it has 120 levels, are you going to think it only lasts one hour? No, you're going to think that it will be a large investment of time. There are hundreds and thousands of potential games out there and all of them are to one degree or another an investment of time and money for potential customers. With such a crowded market, games will be judged superficially and people who might otherwise end up enjoying a game might easily pass it by simply because those superficial aspects weren't appealing. It's Blizzard's job to market WoW to customers and a level cap which is high enough to feel like an achievement but not so high that it feels unattainable is best.

  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protar95 View Post
    Yes, you could make 120 levels last just one hour. But if you've never played wow before and hear it has 120 levels, are you going to think it only lasts one hour? No, you're going to think that it will be a large investment of time. There are hundreds and thousands of potential games out there and all of them are to one degree or another an investment of time and money for potential customers. With such a crowded market, games will be judged superficially and people who might otherwise end up enjoying a game might easily pass it by simply because those superficial aspects weren't appealing. It's Blizzard's job to market WoW to customers and a level cap which is high enough to feel like an achievement but not so high that it feels unattainable is best.
    This various services exist as a way to cater to the needs of their new customers:
    Recruit a friend and character boost which is doing its job ever since they were implemented.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    I don't think I've seen this discussion hashed out since the leveling revamp was announced, and that surprises me.

    So... I don't know where I got the impression, but it's in my head from somewhere that Ion Hazzikostas was put where he is partially to future proof WoW for the perpetuity that, really, they never expected for this game, once and for all. Whether that's his doing or not is debatable, but it's absolutely a thing that's happening.

    As much as he claims not to want things to get too formulaic, you can see these efforts here and there: Flight/Pathfinder is an expected formula now, the patch cycle is relatively standardized with some wiggle room, legacy loot is a hard coded and necessary promise for those playing the transmog long game, and our expectations between main patches and "point five" patches have formed a straight line that has us anticipating timewalking right on time each expansion.

    So let's look at the leveling overhaul in this vein.

    You have your starting area bracket, your "legacy content" bracket, your "immediately prior expansion" designation for a smooth transition for new players being told a flowing story, and then your 10 levels for the current expansion. Pathfinder becomes something you do at the X.2 mark if you wanna fly in current content while it's current, and that achievement becomes of lesser import by the time that content goes legacy if not in the immediately following expansion. That's all very neat, tidy and as soon as we live through it once, going from 60 to 50 to climb it again, it's precedent.

    ...And it potentially happens again, every two years, as everything slots into its new place on the climb from 1-60. On schedule. Forever. Or as long as the game keeps going anyway.

    It's so elegant it seems a sure bet at this point. How the hell does a "level 60-70" 10.0 even fit into this? It doesn't. We'll be 50 again for 10.0, Shadowlands will be the non-optional 10-50 game for new people, and BFA goes fully into the legacy pool of leveling options for veterans.

    That's gotta be how this is going, right?

    Right?

    To be clear, I'm not complaining, but I haven't seen this accepted communally, this... nigh inevitability I'm seeing unfolding here.
    We can only hope they leave the level cap at 60, the second it went over 70 it was just plain dumb. IMO it feels real shitty having to start a new character and have the absurd task or leveling 120 levels before you can play the game. I hope it is not only level 60, but that it takes at most 12-15 hours to level 1-60.

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