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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfrick View Post
    This is what works and will work for the future... going abow level 60 is just pointless...

    Each expansion just push the level down to 50 and then give us 10 level up to 60 for the new content.

    numbers will be low and cool and understandable...


    With over 120 levels... people in the industry started using wow as a joke for elveling and how bad games can get with no level squishs... so its a good thing and Blizzard will keep it this way.
    other games have 200+ levels...

    i dont get peoples aversion to larger numbers and actually having a lot of content to do in a game...

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    Which is could've been remedied if they try to explain: Look you're not completely leveling new class or allied races with 120 levels. Don't let the numbers fool you. What we can do is ease the leveling process by letting things as it is and readjust the XP rate from the existing level brackets and perhaps make some wiggle room.

    Vs.

    We will have a permanent feature: every expac we will reset your level to 50 and you will level up 10 levels to experience end game content of x.0... which is bs.
    But isnt that what we do already? Atleast with this lvl squish we can pick and choose every 10 lvls where we want to go. I dont know how theyre going to deal with the 1-50 grind in terms of time but being lvl 29 and saying "alright! 31 more to go" beats " alright...101 more to go"

  3. #203
    The Lightbringer De Lupe's Avatar
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    I see no downside with a permanent level 60 cap.

    Probably easier for them to do it each expansion than once every 3-4.

    As long as the old content is still soloable, even at it's highest difficulty, I'm good with it.
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  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itori View Post
    But isnt that what we do already? Atleast with this lvl squish we can pick and choose every 10 lvls where we want to go. I dont know how theyre going to deal with the 1-50 grind in terms of time but being lvl 29 and saying "alright! 31 more to go" beats " alright...101 more to go"
    That is just a matter of perspective though. 31 more levels could take more time then 101 more levels. There is no universal standard for experience per level. Every game has their own pacing so a brand new player shouldn't be overwhelmed just from the number alone. I could see how a brand player of video games might be overwhelmed but I wouldn't suggest WoW to a such a person anyways.
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  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I could see how a brand player of video games might be overwhelmed but I wouldn't suggest WoW to a such a person anyways.
    That's the thing though: WoW DOES want those people trying and not running away from their game! That's a big part of this!

    The depth of the game is there for the veterans, but the on-ramp needs adjustment to attract new blood!

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    That's the thing though: WoW DOES want those people trying and not running away from their game! That's a big part of this! The depth of the game is there for the veterans, but the on-ramp needs adjustment to attract new blood!
    There is a vast difference between new blood and never played a video game before. Levels are arbitrary from game to game. A level in WoW is different then Diablo 3 that is different then the Witcher 3. Etc. A person that just looks at a number and stops playing is never a person that will play longer term. Because they know nothing about what that number means and have already stopped.

    Because like I said 31 levels to go can take longer then 101 levels to go. Numbers are arbitrary. It is all about how fast or slow the developer of the game wants you to level. And not the level itself. The actual level only exists for gating content. Blizzard could allow you to level to 120 in 5 hours of play if they wanted.

    Would a person be equally as discouraged?
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  7. #207
    People get scared by big numbers in games. Of course there are obviously other issues already mentioned in this thread, but this is the simple truth. New players would see 130 and decide not to bother investing when the end-game feels so far away (regardless of how fast they may get there).

  8. #208
    if theyre gonna remove levels they should remove them all outright... with scaling levels are meaningless anyways.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There is a vast difference between new blood and never played a video game before. Levels are arbitrary from game to game. A level in WoW is different then Diablo 3 that is different then the Witcher 3. Etc. A person that just looks at a number and stops playing is never a person that will play longer term. Because they know nothing about what that number means and have already stopped.

    Because like I said 31 levels to go can take longer then 101 levels to go. Numbers are arbitrary. It is all about how fast or slow the developer of the game wants you to level. And not the level itself. The actual level only exists for gating content. Blizzard could allow you to level to 120 in 5 hours of play if they wanted.

    Would a person be equally as discouraged?
    This is what I am talking about...
    With 120 level they can gate as much content than with just 1-3 levels.
    I have suggested before in terms of level scaling Max level shouldn't be achieved within day 1 of the game release. This is no speed run game anyways. They could release gated content such as what they did with Kul'tiran and Zandalari when they became available and released several months have passed.
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2020-05-22 at 04:52 AM.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There is a vast difference between new blood and never played a video game before. Levels are arbitrary from game to game. A level in WoW is different then Diablo 3 that is different then the Witcher 3. Etc. A person that just looks at a number and stops playing is never a person that will play longer term. Because they know nothing about what that number means and have already stopped.

    Because like I said 31 levels to go can take longer then 101 levels to go. Numbers are arbitrary. It is all about how fast or slow the developer of the game wants you to level. And not the level itself. The actual level only exists for gating content. Blizzard could allow you to level to 120 in 5 hours of play if they wanted.

    Would a person be equally as discouraged?
    Well sure they could, but to someone new to the game hearing that the cap is 120 will sound more daunting than 60. And I think it's unfair to say that someone daunted by that number would never play or play long term is a bit unfair. First impressions are important.

  11. #211
    The problem with having 120 levels is that there are not enough abilities or talents spread across those levels and the lack of difficulty while leveling. While leveling, you will not even use a bunch of the spells/abilities you get that are not focused on damage/tanking/healing. I'm never going to dispel on my Spriest while leveling because it's pointless. Nothing is threatening enough to make me feel like I need to dispel it. So, when you are given something like dispel when leveling a new character it feels like you got nothing at all, because you have to force yourself to use it. For many classes there are large swathes of the level up grind that feel like they're getting nothing at all. Since everything scales with you, you never get to feel more powerful either. Since all content outside of current expac is irrelevant, you never have a reason to go back to the content you have scaled past. This makes leveling FEEL like a bigger and longer slog than it actually is. So, you equip heirlooms to get it done faster! Except that with heirlooms most of the loot you get becomes vendor trash. So, now you have long periods of time between getting spells/abilities you'll regularly use and gear is pretty much pointless. This actually makes it feel WORSE. Then once you get to 100 you have 20 solid levels of getting absolutely nothing at all. Leveling in modern WoW is ironically more tedious than leveling in Classic! At least in Classic getting new gear gives you observable increases in power. Each level gives you something useful. The time it takes to complete quests and the danger of questing makes you feel something when you level up. If Blizzard can return to something similar while removing the more annoying and nonsensical stuff from Classic, I think they'll have a hit.

  12. #212
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protar95 View Post
    Well sure they could, but to someone new to the game hearing that the cap is 120 will sound more daunting than 60. And I think it's unfair to say that someone daunted by that number would never play or play long term is a bit unfair. First impressions are important.
    It isn't unfair. If they are going to be turned off of a game just because of a high number with out knowledge of the time it takes to get to that number then they will be turned off by any other aspect. Because things are not always what the seem. Leveling to 60 can take longer then leveling to 120. It isn't a universal thing that all game designers enforce. So a number is irrelevant with out the knowledge of what that number means.

    If a person brand new to the game is going to make decisions with out knowledge then I would say they are unlikely to keep playing or rather not the type of player that is good for the game.
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  13. #213
    I can't believe more than one person would think such a stupid thing.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It isn't unfair. If they are going to be turned off of a game just because of a high number without knowledge of the time it takes to get to that number then they will be turned off by any other aspect. Because things are not always what the seem. Leveling to 60 can take longer then leveling to 120. It isn't a universal thing that all game designers enforce. So a number is irrelevant without the knowledge of what that number means.

    If a person brand new to the game is going to make decisions without knowledge then I would say they are unlikely to keep playing or rather not the type of player that is good for the game.
    Most people make decisions without knowledge. The average person is not going to hear 120 levels and ask "how long does it take though?". The average person is going to hear 120 levels and immediately feel like that is a lot. Regardless of if you tell them it's fast they already have the impression that it's too much. It's basic human psychology. Very few people are going to take the time to listen to you explain why it's not really that bad because of X, Y, and Z. You may think "well I don't want to play with people like that anyway", and that's fine! But then you will have a very dead game.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by De Lupe View Post
    I see no downside with a permanent level 60 cap.

    Probably easier for them to do it each expansion than once every 3-4.

    As long as the old content is still soloable, even at it's highest difficulty, I'm good with it.
    That's sort of the downside, because it means you have to always get to the new level cap (i.e. buy the new expansion and level up through it) in order to any kind of farming of older content. It means MC will be scaled tot he same as Antorus or Nya'lotha. I certainly see a problem with that. Blizzard has already failed several times over on squishing and rescaling stuff repeatedly. Not to mention that this is another overt method Blizzard is employing to erode any kind of character progression to further grow their hamster wheel systems of "user engagement.
    I really would have preferred the GW2 method of handling both leveling up and end game progression without extending the level cap. The downside to that sort of system is that your developers can't be creatively bankrupt and actually put in effort to make something new each expansion, which Blizzard's team, apart from the art and music department, are completely incapable of doing.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by temple1906 View Post
    Most people make decisions without knowledge. The average person is not going to hear 120 levels and ask "how long does it take though?". The average person is going to hear 120 levels and immediately feel like that is a lot. Regardless of if you tell them it's fast they already have the impression that it's too much. It's basic human psychology. Very few people are going to take the time to listen to you explain why it's not really that bad because of X, Y, and Z. You may think "well I don't want to play with people like that anyway", and that's fine! But then you will have a very dead game.
    I think that is the difference between a person that plays video games and one that doesn't. Because levels are different in every game. 70 levels in The Witcher 3 are different then 70 levels in WoW. Different speeds, different XP required etc. If very few people are going to take the time to listen why level 120 isn't that high of a number then they also won't take the time to learn fight tactics. Class rotations. Gear choices. And all of the other things that require a knowledge beyond a surface impression.

    A good player requires the ability to understand and adapt. And no that won't make a very dead game because that is how it exists now and even with Classic. And both retail and classic are far from dead. 60 levels in retail are faster, and less XP required, then 60 levels in Classic. They mean different things. It also isn't basic psychology because instruction manuals and the like have existed for years. College degrees, job training, certifications etc are all humans learning to understand and do things that they otherwise did not.

    Even 60 in Shadowlands will be different then 60 now. It is a relative number. Experience and speed are what matter for levels. Your logic indicates that a player would enjoy leveling to 10 even if it took as long as it takes to get to 120 now. Because that low level is a greater impression then understanding anything else about the game.
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  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by temple1906 View Post
    Most people make decisions without knowledge. The average person is not going to hear 120 levels and ask "how long does it take though?". The average person is going to hear 120 levels and immediately feel like that is a lot. Regardless of if you tell them it's fast they already have the impression that it's too much. It's basic human psychology. Very few people are going to take the time to listen to you explain why it's not really that bad because of X, Y, and Z. You may think "well I don't want to play with people like that anyway", and that's fine! But then you will have a very dead game.
    Just like those in favour of a level squish decided without knowledge that people will be discouraged from playing by a level cap of 120?

    I somewhat doubt that number even factors into the decision at all for the majority of new players, especially ones with no prior contact with MMOs, because the information is useless to them.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    No. Because of story. I can kill Argus with level 1 gear by being carried. Sure I'd die on the attempt but I'd still be part of the kill effort. That doesn't mean that Argus was killed by that level 1 weapon. Because story plays out independent of levels since you know levels are a purely mechanic creation. The levels that we as players earn do not exist in the lore of the game world.
    Well it's happening mechanically via Transmog. It's as if you're just copying the stats onto the weapon or armoe model or vice versa. Player can even RP they have defeated the boss with their barehands by finishing off the boss and unequipping their weapons according to their own accounts.

    I used the comparison with the artifact weapon vs a drop from level 85 just to bring up a concern here. Imagine skipping the whole artifact weapon storyline with new character then suddenly on a whim you decided to face Argus.

    Btw here's another complication, since all dungeons and raid scale equally there is an issue with the legacy drop setting. You have to be level 60 to be able to farm old contents because the dungeons and raid scales according to your level while on the current setting you can farm Black Temple and just be pulling everything and 1 shot them. In SL you will be having hard time doing that.
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2020-05-22 at 05:54 AM.

  19. #219
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    You mean Hard cap 60, so every expansion its just end game from the get go, going harder and harder until the last patch? without leveling in the first weeks and just, dungeonerring and unlocking new abilities? well

    yeah... makes sense. The sole purpose of leveling was just to grind time for players, now its not required, there is plenty of activities, that leveling became a chore until this extra exp. So probably blizz already understood that.

    I like the idea of being 60 forever but unlocking new talents or abilities (soulbinds/covenantabilities) specific for expansions.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    Well it's happening mechanically via Transmog. It's as if you're just copying the stats onto the weapon or armoe model or vice versa.
    Transmog does not copy stats. It applies a the image of something else. An artifact also was never required to defeat Argus. It isn't like with N'zoth and the cloak. You also do pretty much that now because leveling through Legion you skip a lot and have no artifact to power up. So you can go right to defeating Argus with out even doing much.

    Blizzard has also already addressed old raids and instances. You will still be able to solo them if you can solo it now. Blizzard addressed this back in November. If you are leveling in Pandaria it will scale 10 to 50. If you are not using "Chromie time" the content will be a certain level. This may or may not have changed. However Blizzard can easily address it with the "Legacy solo buff" that they already use to ensure raids that should be able to be done solo can be done solo.

    It is to early for this to be really tested on Alpha as any solo issues are usually fixed in later in the cycle.
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