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  1. #1

    Shadowlands Enhance Skill Bloat

    Stormstrike
    Rockbiter
    Flameshock
    Lavalash
    Lightning bolt
    Chain Lightning Bolt
    Chrash Lightning
    Flame Totem
    Ghost Wolf
    Windfury Totem
    Earthelemental
    Heroism

    These talents are baseline in our rotation. It seems to me when we further more add the talent from the skilltree like:

    Totem Mastery
    Searing Assault
    Ascendedance

    We could end with 15 talents in our rotations.
    Of course you dont have to use them as often as Stormstrike and flameshock, but i think we have way to many talents an no real focus on well thought talents.

  2. #2
    I mean hero/lust is pretty definitionally not a rotational ability, it is the example of a cooldown.

    Aside from quibbling over what is or is not a rotational ability (enhancement was used in mop as the example to justify pruning with the multiple tiny CDs and 50+ sources of damage).
    I don't necessarily agree that on the SL alpha enhance has too many buttons. I would argue it has too many buttons that don't do anything besides be buttons; Without talents LL is just 'press on cd for damage because its LL' and rockbiter is just 'press if you can't press anything else'. I would like it if those two spells to impact you spec outside of competing talents. Same with the dogs, unless you talent them our 'major' CD is just 'they do damage'. Personally, I would like the option for hailstorm to interact with frost shock in some way It's kinda dumb the talent exists when FS is basically cc/pvp only now.

    In a pinch, I could see the argument that LB and CL could be combined in some way (maybe through crash lightning) since if you want to press LB you would never press CL and vice versa. But its hardly a huge issue.

  3. #3
    That is valid point, there is not much interaction between the talents.
    Flame totem only with the appropriate Skill Searing Assault and so on.
    Maybe i have to try it by myself, but i think we are going back to have a lot of talents which we have to use to gain a small amout of damage but have no interaction or dependencies.

  4. #4
    If I had to throw away any abilities from Enhancement, I'd say Lightning Bolt first and Chain Lightning if another was needed as those are most defined as Elemental abilities.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    If I had to throw away any abilities from Enhancement, I'd say Lightning Bolt first and Chain Lightning if another was needed as those are most defined as Elemental abilities.
    That would defeat the whole point of the Maelstrom Weapon stacks, instant cast on these spells is also in my opinion great fun being a melee caster rpg wise.

    The list is much smaller than in the OP anyway, he's exaggerated for effect and many are situational. Bloodlust is a one time CD, wolf is situational, aoe is situational. The talents in the skill tree will possibly not be picked.

    Enh is hype and I for one welcome the wotlk priority spam system back

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Rend Blackhand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    If I had to throw away any abilities from Enhancement, I'd say Lightning Bolt first and Chain Lightning if another was needed as those are most defined as Elemental abilities.
    Shadowlands class design is intended to eliminate this mindset. You are a shaman, not a spec.
    Me not that kind of Orc!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by csguba View Post
    That would defeat the whole point of the Maelstrom Weapon stacks, instant cast on these spells is also in my opinion great fun being a melee caster rpg wise.

    The list is much smaller than in the OP anyway, he's exaggerated for effect and many are situational. Bloodlust is a one time CD, wolf is situational, aoe is situational. The talents in the skill tree will possibly not be picked.

    Enh is hype and I for one welcome the wotlk priority spam system back
    They could have Maelstrom Weapon stacks interact with another ability. For what it's worth I do think running around in melee with Chain Lightning is pretty appealing if anything because it appeals to the old RTS Farseer/Thrall style. Not as hype for Lightning Bolt single target, though. Crash Lightning may be a little redundant with Chain Lightning, as well, and maybe they could be merged, but I'd rather keep Crash Lightning for Enhancement if it came to it. I find it harder to justify getting rid of any of the other listed abilities. Maybe Windfury.

    The only other abilities I don't think are as fun as the others would probably be Purge, Cleanse Spirit, Far Sight, Tremor Totem, Frost Shock, and Lightning Shield. But for Lightning Shield, it turning into a passive instead of a temporary buff would fix it for me, and the rest of them provide meaningful utility which I think other Shaman wouldn't want removed. Purge and Cleanse Spirit could probably be consolidated to one ability if they're looking to get rid of bloat without necessarily removing any utility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rend Blackhand View Post
    Shadowlands class design is intended to eliminate this mindset. You are a shaman, not a spec.
    Fair. If you happen to like class fantasy more than spec fantasy, what would you want removed if you had to get rid of something?

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Rend Blackhand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Fair. If you happen to like class fantasy more than spec fantasy, what would you want removed if you had to get rid of something?
    I would remove totems entirely. They're finished, a terrible system. Playing classic has only reinforced my hatred of totems.

    Either they should be removed and replaced with buffs or made useful again by following the player or having 100yd range or soemthing.

    Just because something is unique to a class doesn't mean it's good like a chocolate kettle.
    Me not that kind of Orc!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Rend Blackhand View Post
    I would remove totems entirely. They're finished, a terrible system. Playing classic has only reinforced my hatred of totems.

    Either they should be removed and replaced with buffs or made useful again by following the player or having 100yd range or soemthing.

    Just because something is unique to a class doesn't mean it's good like a chocolate kettle.
    People have been begging for totems for ages. The system is fine with only two totems, if they had to add more then Call of the Ancestors would be a suitable solution

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Rend Blackhand View Post
    I would remove totems entirely. They're finished, a terrible system. Playing classic has only reinforced my hatred of totems.

    Either they should be removed and replaced with buffs or made useful again by following the player or having 100yd range or soemthing.

    Just because something is unique to a class doesn't mean it's good like a chocolate kettle.
    Yeah, I'd probably agree with that. I think the best totems are the ones that actively do something in combat like Liquid Magma or Capacitor Totem.
    It's kind of tough because the entire Shaman was made in Vanilla with the pretense that it was a buff class. So, if Shaman isn't a buff class, what else should it be defined as - interrupting, purging, off-heals? What other side element do you think should be amplified to an absurd degree to replace totems so that it becomes "the identity" - and for people who like totems, should they remain as abilities that deal damage? Historically I've thought totems acting like conduits for spells after they do something could be fun. Considering totems being short-duration is what they're doing in Shadowlands, maybe buffs at all from the totems are off the table entirely.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Rend Blackhand View Post
    I would remove totems entirely. They're finished, a terrible system. Playing classic has only reinforced my hatred of totems.
    Removing lightning bolt is a bad idea, it's class fantasy not spec fantasy. Also I would remove totems... From shaman...

    What am I even reading in this thread?

  12. #12
    Whatever it will be I hope we won’t have a 6848 buttons rotations to do damage.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I mean hero/lust is pretty definitionally not a rotational ability, it is the example of a cooldown.
    earth elemental also does fuck all

  14. #14
    I'd rather enhancements abilities actually had more flavor to them.

    Rockbiter(RB) use to be a imbue that turned in to a maelstorm generator(rage) and now it's just a basic attack. It offers nothing other then a filler.

    Lava Lash use to synergies with spreading flame shock(FS), or even had increasing damage through searing flames and primal primer. Now it just does more damage if your off-hand weapon has Flametongue(FT) applied.

    Imbues, the illusion of choice. What is the point in bringing them back if you're bringing them back like this? Blizzard will tune it so you have WF on your main hand and FT on your off-hand, if someone discovers double WF will do more damage they'll nerf it like they did with Primal Primer builds, you can't go away from 'their' norm. They could of brought RB back as a imbue for some imbue switching, give it a massive leach effect to help how squishy enhance is. Frostbrand(FB) could of also returned to have a useful effect. Again I say, illusion of choice.

    Windfury(WF), if you ask anyone to a name a ability from Enhancement I guarantee that most would say WF first. It's now in a very-very sad state, it offers little damage and the last few expansions it's been mainly a maelstorm generator. In fact only getting Forceful Winds talent made it actually do half-decent damage, and even if you did a WF proc you wouldn't notice it. The graphic for a proc is so faint and your basic attack animation doesn't reset, so literally the only graphical effect you get is some sort wind around your ankles. Can you imagine that? You've just hit 3 times and you only see 1 attack and a very minor effect. it's pretty grim that I prefer the graphical effect from 15 years ago in vanilla where it did have a more profound graphic and it did reset the animation swing.

    Flametongue is only back to 'enhance' Lava Lash(LL). That's it. Nothing else.

    Lava Lash is just a basic attack that gets more damage if you apply a 60 minute cooldown on your off-hand. How interactive. To actually make more of it you have to talent Hot Hands.

    Stormstrike(SS) is still a spammy attack, for some getting a few procs of SS will feel great. For me? Not really, I'd love SS to feel hard hitting with just one press.

    I'd love to see fire nova return, perhaps spreading flame shocks with Lava Lash? Make RB useful rather then a filler, tune up WF damage and make it more consistent. Give us more imbues and more options, there's even talk about RB should be a 2H attack and LL a DW one. They can do so much more.
    Last edited by Razaron; 2020-05-01 at 04:37 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by valky94 View Post
    earth elemental also does fuck all
    This, it's basically not even worth that of a single SS these days. Maybe if it had the old earth elemental azerite talent it would be more engaging

  16. #16
    It's been mentioned here, but the lack of synergy between abilities barring a few seems terrible. We have two abilities that literally do nothing but damage (Rockbiter and Lava Lash) depending on talents. Searing Totem is a tiny cooldown that does nothing but damage unless you talent into it. Flame Shock is just....there. Feral Spirit does nothing but damage. There is just no synergy or interaction between most abilities.

    I also play Fury on live, and that spec not only feels fluid, but the abilities interact with each other in a way that feels satisfying. Enhancement on the Alpha does not appear to have that feeling, and instead seems to be a spec in which you're pressing buttons for the sake of pressing buttons and not for any satisfying payoff.

    There is definitely some good to be found: Maelstrom stacks, Stormbringer, Ascendance, WF totem. There's also a lot of not-so-good, as it stands.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    If I had to throw away any abilities from Enhancement, I'd say Lightning Bolt first and Chain Lightning if another was needed as those are most defined as Elemental abilities.
    Fuck that, best thing about SL Enhancement is Chain Lightning/Heal.

    Rockbiter and Lava Lash though could be straight tossed, Rockbiter at the very least.

    Not a fan of Searing either, and I've never been a fan of Spirit Wolves, they should be talented baseline and Searing could be automatically cast/refreshed/moved when Flame Shock is cast, I feel. It doesn't really fit with the GCD dense gameplay of 2020 - it worked in TBC because 50% of your GCDs were empty.

  18. #18
    Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning is a major factor in class fantasy. It makes me think of Classic Thrall. Also in synergie with mahltrom stacks they are fun to play.
    On the other hand the Fire Totem feels redundant, back in the days when we had loads of them and could place them in packs of 4 with various options it was quite fun.
    The totems we had in BFA were enough.
    Rockbiter and Lavalash are just lame filler no synergies or gameplay value.
    Whats the reason behind Flame shock, is it just a DOT to refresh. Same as the Fire totem is it just a small skill with little dmg you have to press to maximise but no futher meaning to it?

    I think Blizzard just made the enhancement changes to apeace the community but they dont have a real vision for the spec.

    Earth Elemantal does 80k dmg, so its at least one good filler XD
    And yes Heroism is a question of definition, i think when i have to use it in my openening rotation at the boss pull its more or less a part of my rotation i have to consider.

  19. #19
    Pit Lord Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    If I had to throw away any abilities from Enhancement, I'd say Lightning Bolt first and Chain Lightning if another was needed as those are most defined as Elemental abilities.
    I'd probably do the same, except I'd replace Lightning Bolt with Stormblast from MoP, making that our hard hitter as it would only be available for use when at 5 stacks of maelstrom.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Removing lightning bolt is a bad idea, it's class fantasy not spec fantasy. Also I would remove totems... From shaman...

    What am I even reading in this thread?
    Good question. Oh, how I wish BfA stayed forever. /s

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