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  1. #101
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalarm View Post
    I understand your PoV on it, but the problem with current SL enh is that they basically have 4 shadowball buttons dealing different DMG and which doesn't lead to anything noteworthy other than more DMG.
    Shadowbolt does like 25% of the damage that 3 of these abilities do, they are not the same thing.


    In a way, it could be debated if a filler is something that you use to build your ressource. You use shadowball to get shards so you can do the interesting stuff.
    Only as Demonology, Affliction gets their shards from Agony, they only use Shadowbolt when there is literally nothing else to do and it does absolutely nothing else for them other than a very tiny amount of flat damage.

    And no, builders are not filler, they are builders. Builders are by definition part of the core rotation. If you happen to have a builder with no cooldown that you can spam when your more powerful builders are on CD and you don't have enough energy to spend, then you still don't have any fillers, because you don't need any. Fillers are things that serve no other purpose than to fill dead space in the rotation, they do pathetic damage and generate no resources to emphasize that.

    MM hunters are a good example of a spec that has no filler, they just have a no CD builder.


    The abilities that I am talking do not build anything and that might be a difference of definition for melee characters.
    Furthermore, not every class needs to work off of a build/spend mechanic, that's just another form of homogenization. We don't all need to just be another flavor of rogue.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2020-05-11 at 10:58 PM.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  2. #102
    As of now, during BFA: We are in a very particulier place as enhancement. We got geared like hell. Haste soared over to top now all we do is spam stormstrike. We are only using weapon imbues to proc stormbringer. In most calculations crash lightning becomes better choise than lava lash (for single target) because crash lightning procs stormbringer and lava lash doesnt...

    Now words like "filler" "nuke" "builder" "spender" doesn't mean anything when you don't even have a system. When all you do is spam stormstrike, you're not really playing a class. There are times you spam stormstrike for straight 15-20 seconds. This is bullshit by any perspective.

    In shadowlands. Stormbringer procs should mean something. MSW procs should mean something. This is why people whine about fillers. Stranding 500-600-700 damage one after another without anything affecting one another isn't fun. We don't have ups, we don't have downs. It's like those boring toddler trains in amusement parks compared to warlock/mage deathatron 4000 roller coaster.

  3. #103
    Having 15-20sec long Stormbringer proc chains makes for a fun ride though. It's a bit excessive but not that much though. Definitely better than having multiple similar abilities (Chain Lightning vs. Crash Lighting on Alpha) which all hit like a wet towel though.

    Don't think that Enhancement is the only spec which has it's damage come from mostly a single ability either too.

  4. #104
    When you are on your 87th pull on the nth boss of a raid, it makes you drowsy rather than fun.

    For sure having most damage from 1 spell is common for most specs and its the reason ppl didnt like classes for all of BFA. But enhancement is the end of that spectrum. At least for other classes, you're trying to get to a point where you can use that ability by synergizing your other abilities and reach your goal (much less exciting than i describe but still). Our on the other hand. Stormbringer procs even off of auto attacks. And it procs constantly. I would love to work for a moment of big pay off like "enhancement disclaimer" points out for shadowlands but it doesn't seem within reach.

    If LB is gonna hit less than our spam ability, it's just gonna feel like a filler when we can't spam it, with twist of msw "mechanic". But if it hits hard with less procs like a combo point system or holy power system, gives us way to decision making. Makes our new talents stronger AND becomes actually exciting.

  5. #105
    So we’ll have again to press 8000 buttons to do damage?

    Don’t think I like this.

  6. #106
    I was thinking of Totems and Enhancement being the "Totemic Warrior" with no Totems. Why not redesign the spec a bit so it would be more or less the same, but instead enhancing it's abilities from blessings of Spirits rather than just plain Elemental powers?

    The mechanics of the spec could remain more or less the same, just change the theme and terminology to aling with Spirits instead of Elements. You could have a weapon buff you'd still have to to track and Stormstrike could be renamed to Spirit Strike or whatever fits. They've changed core spec fantasy before (shadow priest!), why not do it again for Enhancement too which clearly needs some help?

    Or is the Totemic Warrior so deep in Blizzard's core spec fantasy that it can't be changed? Like the Shaman class absolutely has to have a spec which uses Totems, no matter what.

    It's just that getting two new totems in Shadowlands sounds absolutely horrible and having to refresh them every now and then is something that should have stayed in Classic. Even if they have a higher uptime than in Classic, these totems certainly don't follow you around and you still have to pop them again when you run out of range.

  7. #107
    The more I'm looking into enhancement in SL the more it shits me. Not only is the base kit just a bunch of unconnected spells that you only hit because they exist to be hit but even when you take into account the talents nothing changes.

    15
    Boulderfist turns your filler into... better filler, much wow
    Forceful winds is entirely passive (also windfury makes me sad without the insane auto resets making it look like you're having a seizure)
    Elemental blast; New spell, great but also you just sometimes hit EB instead of LB there's no interaction with the rest of the kit

    25
    Landslide this is essentially the only talent that increases the interactivity of your kit. So great
    Hot hands; This is the lavalash talent, and it's entirely passive you just hit LL when it lights up. It doesn't change how LL works at all
    Totem mastery was a flavour band-aid to make shamans feel like totems mattered when we had no totems. But now we have totems again so, why does it exist?

    35
    Hailstorm; Can't got live like this it's like basically a pvp talent. No one is going to take it as some weird rng flame shock spreading aoe nonsense.
    Searing assault; All it does is make every second searing totem do more damage, you just hit it the gcd before you reset up ST. I guess it raises the prior of fs if it drops off during the window so that's some interactivity.
    Overcharge; Fine I guess.

    45
    They're all just separate spells not really the focus of my complaint here.

    50
    Elemental spirits; This is exactly what I'm talking about, it makes it so (sometimes) when you press doggos it incentivises you to want to press LL more. The only problem is its rng if you get flame dog and the dot is so minimal it essentially changes nothing.
    ES ok cool w/e
    Ascendance ok cool w/e


    Flame tongue and lavalash need to have an interaction beyond "LL does more damage if FT is applied (which it will be)".
    LL should mean something beyond "you press it because it exists to be pressed".
    ST should mean something beyond "your press it because it exists to be pressed".

  8. #108
    Huh, turns out people don't actually want all that much unpruned stuff - at least not if it's random boring that barely adds anything to your spec.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    Huh, turns out people don't actually want all that much unpruned stuff - at least not if it's random boring that barely adds anything to your spec.
    actually it ads a lot, thing is its just hustle in gcd`s and problems ;P

    "Hope for the best and prepare for the worst"

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by kosajk View Post
    actually it ads a lot, thing is its just hustle in gcd`s and problems ;P
    Shockingly, when people were talking about wanting old stuff back they actually meant relevant stuff like Kill shot, and not tedious busy work stuff like Searing Totem - stuff that doesn't at all interact with anything you do but just randomly adds 200 dps to your meter. Awesome.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    Huh, turns out people don't actually want all that much unpruned stuff - at least not if it's random boring that barely adds anything to your spec.
    IKR.

    The usual.

    Community: "Blizzard WTF u prune stuff, what about our IMMERSHUN and CLASS IDENTITY and our BATTANZ???"
    Blizzard: *unprunes stuff*
    Community: "Blizzard WTF u unprune stuff???"
    Blizzard... ????

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    IKR.

    The usual.

    Community: "Blizzard WTF u prune stuff, what about our IMMERSHUN and CLASS IDENTITY and our BATTANZ???"
    Blizzard: *unprunes stuff*
    Community: "Blizzard WTF u unprune stuff???"
    Blizzard... ????
    its all depnding what they are pruning and unpruning tbh :P

    there was rage on pruning cause they took fun skills like
    -ancestral guidance,
    -Shamanistic rage,
    -flame shock + lava leash + fire nova combo
    -ascendance being baseline with storm blast is another good example of bad pruning imo even if half of it get back as talent

    and now there is rage on unpruning cause we get back skills that take gcd`s while not giving satisafctionary gamplay/rotation
    -searing totem,
    -weapon imbues,
    -WF totem could be nice but current implementation and range especially is leaving a loot of space for improvement as its anyway party limited and tied to 5 hp stick,
    -MSW+LB combo system while LB hit weaker than SS, MSW stacks don`t increase dmg/healing like before is a part of the problem

    That all on top of problems old as shaman itself, no good defensive cd`s while especially currently almost everyone else have some more or less offensive implementations of 5-10 sec invulnerability...
    So yea there is a reason for everything while experience tells me that any input on forums, official or not, will not change shit. Maybe in second or third major patch they will add something to lease enrage and make shit playable again like always, so another year for other games ;P
    Last edited by kosajk; 2020-05-15 at 01:02 PM.

    "Hope for the best and prepare for the worst"

  13. #113
    no defensive cooldowns, no big raid buffs, no utility, nothing at all just unpruning a bunch of spam dmg skills that does nothing and no interactions between them

    oh look we give you 3-4 more buttons to spam in your rotation for no reason at all here is your unpruning!

  14. #114
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    I was wondering how long until I'd see threads like this. Years of People crying about Pruning, suddenly crying about too many buttons.

    Can never win.
    It's not about having to press many buttons, it's about buttons that are not satisfying to press. Searing totem for example, does jack shit for a GCD. Or frost shock (when you have snare totem). If only enhancement had more buttons like healing stream totem and WF totem, you know, that actually helpful and useful. Then you have more boring stuff, like lightning shield and feral spirit that have no interaction with other spells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    It's not about having to press many buttons, it's about buttons that are not satisfying to press. Searing totem for example, does jack shit for a GCD. Or frost shock (when you have snare totem). If only enhancement had more buttons like healing stream totem and WF totem, you know, that actually helpful and useful. Then you have more boring stuff, like lightning shield and feral spirit that have no interaction with other spells.
    Doctor,

    ---------------

    On an unrelated note; What makes an ability "exciting" and fun to use is not only the "synergy" it has with other spells. It's about "with how many spells it synergise with" AND Main reason is it's own power, relative to the power of your other spells. And in the grand sceme, relative to power of every class' every spell. If feral spirit was immensely powerful just by itself, could come with a burst and kill people, we would love it without any synergy. If it was pure imba burst, would love it not to have synergy.

    Synergy takes power from your stand alone spells and turns them into a "combo" if that combo doesn't reward shit, it's meaningless to have "synergy" from a player's standpoint.

    High ppm of every proc, takes power from them. High synergy between "all" spells takes power from them. Having same power among every spell, takes power from them.

    example!:
    Lightning shield - synergise with everything you do
    Flame tongue - synergise with everything you do
    frostbrand - synergise with everything you do
    windfury - procs with everything you do
    stormbringer - procs with everything you do
    feral spirit - synergise with nearly everything you do if u're lucky

    What remains?
    Lava lash and sundering. Which one of this is exciting? I haven't seen anyone say "oh man sundering sucks" Even tho it doesnt effect anything you do. Just raw damage. Even comes with an utility (pseudo interrupt) that makes you wanna think about it coupled with high cooldown. A perfect spell.

    Why do we hate BFA enhancement? It's not exactly absence of synergy. It has so much synergy, all your spells have to suck. Even stormstrike synergises with itself its like a paradox lol. It actually breaks the class with enough haste you just spam it. That's how bad it is. You can spam you biggest hitter and you're not OP.

    Why do we fear SL enhancement? Let me tell you, it's not exactly absence of synergy neither. It's that having $100 dolar and spending it on things evenly because you can't make up your mind. You don't know what you like! Some spells must be more important than others to make it exciting. If you have a combo, end of it must be feel-good moment. When all your spells synergise with each other AND deal same damage, They will just feel like filler. That's why enhancement has been a filler spec for the lenght of BFA. Seems to be the same for SL as of now. This is exactly how an Artifical intelligence would balance a spec lol.

    With this, i can declare "synergy" as the word i hate most.

    ---------------------
    What to do?

    Like i explained on another post (teeth for enhancement). Reduce PPM of something. Stormbringer or msw (hopefully both). Let them be a moment of triumph. Give us a low damage filler spell to spam (that doesn't sygergise with anything or maybe "1" thing) as the neurotic OCD cunts that we are and condense power into a "moment". Let spells "synergise" with 1 another, NOT with -everything- that's just lazy design.

    AND WE; Need to know what we want to ask for it.
    Last edited by Oturanboa; 2020-05-15 at 11:19 AM.

  16. #116
    As an update, I want to further explain our problem with stormbringer.

    Since we'll be going back to "rotation" based combat with shadowlands. There must be a difference to what we have now. Rotation means cooldowns. Waiting for your hard hitters to be off of cooldown must be essential.

    Now we all know how much high ppm of stormbringer hurts enhancement. Whatever changes are made, if stormstrike stays as hardest hitting ability with such high ppm; no matter what system you bring, will be boiled down to stormstrike spammage.

    What i suggest is: Make stormbringer ONLY proc with stormstrike. With this, stormstrike cooldown will actually mean something AND with less procs, damage of it can stay high enough to be impactful. We could catch a glimse of vanilla wf in terms of burst (not as close ofc). I don't think we should be using it more than 3 times in a row. This would also give us enough of control and room for planning.

    If they still wanna include "elemental will a.k.a luck" in it, sometimes it could proc three times, sometimes only once. BUT NOT 12 times please!

    If you guys don't think this is important, please give it a little more thought. You will see how much stormbringer will hurt our gameplay without this system, just like it wrecks it during bfa.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Playing Shaman 14 years now.
    Totems still sucked since Wotlk, Period.

    If you dismiss legit criticism with "just play something else!" then you're not adding anything of value to this discussion.
    I definitely agree that buff totems were uninteresting when they stopped being unique - literally just weaker versions of actual buffs. On the other hand, having active totems (that actually did something, unlike the current talent) was a huge part of what made Shaman feel like a Shaman.

    Making that work in today's game means you have to focus on the totems that are interesting - such as Windfury, Healing Stream, the utility totems (though they already exist), and while it has never been interesting, Searing Totem COULD be interesting if done well. It's the most visual totem as it's the only one that has a projectile - and it's one of the most iconic totems even if it was never interesting gameplay.

    The current version of Searing Totem on the alpha is ass, it's literally just the "fire and forget" version of old - it should be a lot more interactive baseline, and less busywork to keep active. Can't say I know how to do that specifically, it's just uninteresting the way it is now.
    A funny solution would be if it could be attached to your back, not have a duration (rather a toggle, like a pet) and react differently based on what spells you're using. Flame Shock makes it shoot at your target like current for X seconds (can shoot several), Frost Shock makes it pulse a slow, LB makes it shoot its own LB at the target, CL makes it pulse a lightning nova. Stupid ideas for sure, but adding it like it is feels worse than not having it to me.
    Last edited by Segus1992; 2020-05-20 at 09:00 AM.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    It's the most visual totem as it's the only one that has a projectile - and it's one of the most iconic totems even if it was never interesting gameplay.
    Personally i think the Fire Nova Totem used to be the most visual one and probably the "best" of the three Damage totems (Magma, Searing and Fire Nova).
    But rather than that, we get Searing totem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    A funny solution would be if it could be attached to your back, not have a duration (rather a toggle, like a pet) and react differently based on what spells you're using.
    I don't think that's really a good solution, totems being immobile is what makes them totems, however they should rather focus on providing something within a short window, where them being immobile is not a huge deal.

    The issue with Searing totem is simply, it's thematically okay but in terms of gameplay just horrible and it's one of those spells that i despise as far as "unpruning" is concerned, they're just dumped into your spellbook again and that's it.

    Even a rather simple change would be that it extend FS on the target (which would absolutely be a blessing on encounters where you multi dot FS) or maybe some talent that significantly boosts its damage and turns its cast into an AoE Volley.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-05-20 at 10:40 AM.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Personally i think the Fire Nova Totem used to be the most visual one and probably the "best" of the three Damage totems (Magma, Searing and Fire Nova).
    But rather than that, we get Searing totem.
    I absolutely agree Fire Nova was more visual, but it's also not really a totem in the same sense, since it only lasts for a few seconds. I also wouldn't really call Lava Spout Totem a totem in the same sense, it's more of a targeted aoe spell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I don't think that's really a good solution, totems being immobile is what makes them totems, however they should rather focus on providing something within a short window, where them being immobile is not a huge deal.

    The issue with Searing totem is simply, it's thematically okay but in terms of gameplay just horrible and it's one of those spells that i despise as far as "unpruning" is concerned, they're just dumped into your spellbook again and that's it.

    Even a rather simple change would be that it extend FS on the target (which would absolutely be a blessing on encounters where you multi dot FS) or maybe some talent that significantly boosts its damage and turns its cast into an AoE Volley.
    Yeah nah I agree the deal with totems is that they're immobile, the problem with unpruning Searing Totem the way it is is that you just have to use it, when it would've been just fine for once to have it as a talent (but a CD, faster (so more visual and higher DPS), and shorter (10-15s) duration).

    Problem with refreshing FS is that it just makes FS become less important, while not being visually impressive in the slightest - I'd like it if Searing Totem only shot at targets with FS on them, and shot at ALL targets with FS on them, making it more interactive and visual. That, plus Searing Totem being a CD would give a payoff to spreading FS as Enh, same as it was in the past (but less overpowered) - maybe even with a talent/passive that makes LL spread FS to one target, to also make LL less whatever.

    Also, on the note of LL, just remove Rockbiter.
    Last edited by Segus1992; 2020-05-20 at 11:00 AM.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Also, on the note of LL, just remove Rockbiter.
    This is something that makes me believe they didn't really think about changing Maelstrom back before they did it. We don't "need" an ability that literally just exist to fill time - Rockbiter feels shitty enough to press right now even though it generates resource, pressing it just because it's an alternative to an empty GCD is not fun or engaging design. If the choice is Rockbiter existing purely to fill those holes, or having Rockbiter's damage rebalanced into white attacks and leaving those holes empty, I'd choose the latter every time. Now, if Blizzard can come up with something that is actually fun for that "filler" spot, something that actually interacts with the rest of the rotation (more than just being another potential Stormbringer proc), then awesome. But until then; bye bye Rockbiter, you won't be missed.

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