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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    It's actually hilarious that this is what you think I want rofl
    Thread: Subtlety Finishers and Timersby shoegazing

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    One of the worst features of the new Subtlety design is that there is no way to spend combo points on any self-buffs between mobs in world content, or while restealthing in PvP.

    I couldn’t overstate how much I miss:


    Pressing Premeditation --> Slice and Dice as I stealth towards my enemy and prepare to open

    Getting fancy with Premed --> Sap --> Cheap Shot w/o breaking Sap --> Restealth with 4 combo points --> wait DRs --> Slice and Dice from Stealth --> Cheap Shot --> Rupture --> Premed (again!) --> now I’m able to do a completely different stunlock/rotation in my opener.... this is called gameplay depth.

    Spending combo points on self-buffs/timers when my enemy is on stun DRs / Find Weakness is down and I’m setting up damage for my next big burst window.

    this was taken from a post you made about what you missed the most about old sub sub kinda looks like im right in that you miss the op stun locking that was the cancer of PvP.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by thottstation View Post
    Seriously. all of them sound annoying, useless, and most importantly NOT FUN OR COOL.



    Sounds annoying to watch for, and maddenly frustrating when your combo points skip the Magic Number. Instead of feeling happy to get more combo points than you normally would, you feel angry because now you can't use the covenant.




    A Dot. Boring.

    And I get full combo points AFTER the enemy dies, so when I mount up and ride away, I get to watch them slowly waste away. Lovely. Having unspent combo points after the enemy dies is already frustrating!




    A Dot. It stacks.




    So... literally nothing changes.




    Am I supposed to be excited by any of this?

    Nothing fun. Nothing cool. Nothing amazing. Nothing that makes me feel like I can't wait to click the new button I get for the whole expansion.

    This sucks. The devs literally sat around a desk, spent hours thinking of what cool, amazing, fun, and imaginative extra super abilities rogues could get this expansion... and they come up with this?!
    As we can only have one of these. Thank god they are not that impactful... if they would your game would be fucked in every way other than the one you chose you ability for.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Radazar View Post
    Thread: Subtlety Finishers and Timersby shoegazing

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    One of the worst features of the new Subtlety design is that there is no way to spend combo points on any self-buffs between mobs in world content, or while restealthing in PvP.

    I couldn’t overstate how much I miss:


    Pressing Premeditation --> Slice and Dice as I stealth towards my enemy and prepare to open

    Getting fancy with Premed --> Sap --> Cheap Shot w/o breaking Sap --> Restealth with 4 combo points --> wait DRs --> Slice and Dice from Stealth --> Cheap Shot --> Rupture --> Premed (again!) --> now I’m able to do a completely different stunlock/rotation in my opener.... this is called gameplay depth.

    Spending combo points on self-buffs/timers when my enemy is on stun DRs / Find Weakness is down and I’m setting up damage for my next big burst window.

    this was taken from a post you made about what you missed the most about old sub sub kinda looks like im right in that you miss the op stun locking that was the cancer of PvP.
    Legion Subtlety had more stuns than any version of the spec that existed before it. You have very clearly missed the point.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-05-05 at 12:16 PM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by agm114r View Post
    Well, OP, if it sucks that bad, better start looking for a different game to play, one that you actually like.
    You mean a new class to play right? He didn't say the game stinks he's been pretty specific about his problem.

  5. #85
    High Overlord Mazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    This just sounds like the Monk's Venthyr ability.
    I actually feel like this is part of the problem. With the introduction of monks and later on demon hunters, 2 classes were added to the game that flavorwise overlap too much with a rogue. You can only design so many flashy covenant abilities that match up with a leatherclad agile fighter.

    disclaimer: not meant as a "omg monk and demon hunters took our toys" post. Just feel the blizzard devs didn't do themselves and our class any favors by setting it up this way.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazza View Post
    I actually feel like this is part of the problem. With the introduction of monks and later on demon hunters, 2 classes were added to the game that flavorwise overlap too much with a rogue. You can only design so many flashy covenant abilities that match up with a leatherclad agile fighter.

    disclaimer: not meant as a "omg monk and demon hunters took our toys" post. Just feel the blizzard devs didn't do themselves and our class any favors by setting it up this way.
    Absolutely true.

    Although I do have a slight issue with the Monk one... it doesn't seem to interact with the Monk, it's just a button that does something that has nothing to do with what you are doing.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazza View Post
    I actually feel like this is part of the problem. With the introduction of monks and later on demon hunters, 2 classes were added to the game that flavorwise overlap too much with a rogue. You can only design so many flashy covenant abilities that match up with a leatherclad agile fighter.
    Blizzard just needs to plumb the depths of their creativity to come up with better CringeFantasyTM. It can be done! See my thread on the newly datamined Subtlety ability for an example.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  8. #88
    Sepsis (Night Fae) - Infect the target’s blood, dealing Nature damage over 10 seconds. If the target survives its full duration, they suffer additional damage and you Vanish from sight. Cooldown reduced by 60 seconds if Sepsis does not last its full duration.

    Nature damage Check
    Vanish Check
    CD reduction for aoe/m+ Check

    Oh Lord, I do declare I've got a case of the vapours Mr Hazzikostas.

  9. #89
    The Lightbringer Lazuli's Avatar
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    I laughed, but op is right. By the way its not a players job to offer improvements to shitty abilities, maybe devs should stop being retarded and lazy instead of so much being expected of a player who already has a job? Imagine your job is to make fun shit in a game, and this is all you come up with. Man its gotta be some next level shit to suck at making fun.
    LOL

    ♫Toss a coin to your witcher♫

    I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    I think we may be waiting a long time for that to happen. Maybe even forever.

  10. #90
    Then dont pick a covenant
    Problem solved
    Quote Originally Posted by Broken Fox View Post
    how about you think before typing stupid shit like this
    Quote Originally Posted by TOM_RUS View Post
    Go fuck yourself you brainless retard.

  11. #91
    I mean, more than half of the Covenant abilities can be described like that if you boil them down to their core. It's rather unusual for classes to get actual usefull stuff like DKs aoe grip aura or Paladins aoe shieldthrower. I mean, looking at my Hunter and truly boiling it all down... Kyrians give me a random %crit cooldown, Venthyr give a random dot that'll probably grant me a grand total of 5 additional Kill Shots per 10 minute fight, Necros give a random Chakram that generates some resources (which is rather pointless for 2.5/3 Hunter specs atm) and Fairies give a random cd that randomly adds random dmg procs to abilities - none of those get me particularly wet. And that's really the case for most classes I play/ have looked at. So don't worry about Rogues, you're just as boring as most other classes.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Araxie View Post
    Okay, well, we're still in Alpha and it could change. We haven't seen all the abilities yet, so don't pass judgement just yet.

    Lastly, if none of them appeal to you once the xpac launches, play another class? There's plenty more to choose from.
    What other class looks exciting? I personally cant find anything exciting about the entire SL so far. Instead of some cool or exciting announcements, the more I know about SL, the more disappointed I am, not one class, not 2 classes, not thorgast, but the entire pack looks like an expensive disappointment.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikeyla View Post
    What other class looks exciting? I personally cant find anything exciting about the entire SL so far. Instead of some cool or exciting announcements, the more I know about SL, the more disappointed I am, not one class, not 2 classes, not thorgast, but the entire pack looks like an expensive disappointment.
    That sounds entirely like a personal problem, in all honesty. I know I'm excited, and I've been playing this game for many, many years. I know other people are excited as well.

    If this game isn't getting you excited, maybe step away and try something else for a while?

    I hope that doesn't come across as sarcastic or anything to that affect. I genuinely mean if you're burnt out, take some time off.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Araxie View Post
    That sounds entirely like a personal problem, in all honesty. I know I'm excited, and I've been playing this game for many, many years. I know other people are excited as well.

    If this game isn't getting you excited, maybe step away and try something else for a while?

    I hope that doesn't come across as sarcastic or anything to that affect. I genuinely mean if you're burnt out, take some time off.
    I get your point. I actually just play wow for maybe a month or two in every expansion because my friends make me buy it and quit within two weeks, cos the game is just bad. I used to play it for years, but I just dont think the game offers a quality content anymore. I recently subbed again to give it a try because I play PoE and its league failed for me this time, but I literally cant see anything cool about SL. Yes, the main reason I even consider it is that I liked vampire themes when I was younger (Legacy of Kain, Vampire the masquerade or tons of decent movies before Garbolight ruined the entire vampire theme for ppl), but I just feel like SL doesnt offer anything special. Thats why asked, if Im missing something. They simply remove and re-add stuff from previous expansions and shuffle it. Thats what seem to happen in Sl again. We get back some old stuff we lost. Very few things outside of some skins seem to be new. As I know Blizzard, I cant say I believe them to make Thorgast good or balanced. No new class or anything. Class changes I checked seem to barely change anything in gameplay, except that SP is non-functioning again. Covenant abilities look lame and dull. I dont want to cry here for all the sh*t they've done wrong, but to shorten it, I just feel like they dont even try too hard to make ppl excited to buy the game. Or I am right and there rly isnt anything exciting. I will have some extra free time so I want SL to be at least decent, but I dunno...What makes you excited for SL?

  15. #95
    OK, just got back in the game, trying to get on par with the changes. Read the convenant abilities and thought about how would/should i use them (dps calculations aside - in the end we're all going to pick the one that nets us more damage). My feedback so far:

    - Kyrian: ok, wording is super confusing to me here. It's a 45sec CD that deals damage and generates? changes? creates? a "different" combo point (animacharge). It generates also 3 combo. The finisher that consumes that exact number of combo does more damage.
    So, in my head it works like this: i have X combo, i use it and end at X+3 combo = it MUST be used at 0-2 combo otherwise they're wasted. I end ideally at 4-5 CP, so i must throw a finisher, right? And now my question is: what/where the fuck is the animacharge? Is it my last CP (as in, i use the skill and the last cp is charged as an indicator), is it a random one, is it a separate pool? No explanation here. However, let's dig deeper.
    If animacharge = last CP i have, then it's a no brainer and the use wil ALWAYS be skill->finisher. It doesn't matter how many CP you really have as the finisher will be empowered and always counted as a 7CP one. In this case, the whole animacharge thing is useless and it's literally "your next finisher".
    If animacharge = a random amount of CP it's nonsense. Especially for things like Seal Fate or Shadow Techinques that you cannot control and i would have to wait for the proc or basically pray it procs or doesn't.
    If animacharge = a separate pool, then it's 1 CP finshers always. Like, throw skill, use finisher (cause you're likely at 4-5cp) then generate 1CP and finisher again. Which is just convoluted and you'll have to constantly juggle your dots so you align them to be the next empowered finisher, and will make things just overcomplicated for nothing. Plus the random cp generation goes straight against this. One could say "but you use the skill again and you'll have 2 animacharge!", but it's a freakin 45sec CD and you just said to waste a 7CP finisher just to use another later one more easily = straight out DPS loss.

    This is the worst design i have ever seen. I would be fine if it was "next finisher" though, making dots last longer or have a bigger burst will still affect your rotation without being a mindfuck.

    - Night Fae: an execute dot? It looks it has a synergy with Assassination, being Nature damage. Can have some use in open world with the 5cp thing, so you can throw rupture immediately on next target but you're losing the opener. I assume it's always 60 seconds duration and the cp duration is a typo. Pretty straightforward for classic boss fights imho where it can roll the whole damage, and also cleave adds to (again) put up dots on next target immediately. Not inherently bad but not really interesting - definitely very easy to use.

    - Necrolord: ok, this one is basically a ranged "cleave"? I understand the wording as in "use it once per target, then spam it on your main"? Does it disappear from targets when it fractures? On single target, it's basically a "fire and forget" button since you apply the dot and it lasts until dead. I assume it doesn't stack with itself so refreshing it is useless, but i cannot depict a situation where this could shine - the time to setup everything is a killer here.
    If the dot stays there even with the fracture thing, it may be entirely possible that you're going to just spam it? Here numbers are really needed.

    - Venthyr: it's an opener you use every 5 minutes - i think it's cool enough, though it all depends on if this replaces your lethal poison or adds to it. If it's a replacement, i don't see it fit for Assa, clearly themed towards Sub and has clear PvP implications. I like it - it's not gamebreaking or super inspirational but it works. However, it falls short since it's basically a numbers thing; it's a baseline damage increase, it may be competing with standard poisons, the heal steal is really useful in PvP only and other abilities may have a way better practical real scenario application (execute/cleave). So while i like the idea i really think this has specifically been disgned for PvP players. Too bad since Venthyr have the best xmog of the 4 Covenants.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  16. #96
    High Overlord Mazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    OK, just got back in the game, trying to get on par with the changes. Read the convenant abilities and thought about how would/should i use them (dps calculations aside - in the end we're all going to pick the one that nets us more damage). My feedback so far:

    - Kyrian: ok, wording is super confusing to me here. It's a 45sec CD that deals damage and generates? changes? creates? a "different" combo point (animacharge). It generates also 3 combo. The finisher that consumes that exact number of combo does more damage.
    So, in my head it works like this: i have X combo, i use it and end at X+3 combo = it MUST be used at 0-2 combo otherwise they're wasted. I end ideally at 4-5 CP, so i must throw a finisher, right? And now my question is: what/where the fuck is the animacharge? Is it my last CP (as in, i use the skill and the last cp is charged as an indicator), is it a random one, is it a separate pool? No explanation here. However, let's dig deeper.
    If animacharge = last CP i have, then it's a no brainer and the use wil ALWAYS be skill->finisher. It doesn't matter how many CP you really have as the finisher will be empowered and always counted as a 7CP one. In this case, the whole animacharge thing is useless and it's literally "your next finisher".
    If animacharge = a random amount of CP it's nonsense. Especially for things like Seal Fate or Shadow Techinques that you cannot control and i would have to wait for the proc or basically pray it procs or doesn't.
    If animacharge = a separate pool, then it's 1 CP finshers always. Like, throw skill, use finisher (cause you're likely at 4-5cp) then generate 1CP and finisher again. Which is just convoluted and you'll have to constantly juggle your dots so you align them to be the next empowered finisher, and will make things just overcomplicated for nothing. Plus the random cp generation goes straight against this. One could say "but you use the skill again and you'll have 2 animacharge!", but it's a freakin 45sec CD and you just said to waste a 7CP finisher just to use another later one more easily = straight out DPS loss.

    This is the worst design i have ever seen. I would be fine if it was "next finisher" though, making dots last longer or have a bigger burst will still affect your rotation without being a mindfuck.
    This is how it works: You get 3 combo points and a buff that states a number. The buff gets consumed when you use a damaging (yeh, no OP kidney shot shenanigans here) finisher with the exact same number of combo points as the number on the buff and that finisher will act as it had 7 combo points.

    Of note is that if you overshoot and have to use a damaging finisher with more (or less, but why would you) combo points, the buff is not consumed and just stays on. So as long as you manage to get a damaging finisher in the rotation with the correct number before the 45 second cd is up this works out fine. If it turns out overshooting the cd only happens very rarely it's probably fine, if not then it's pretty garbage.

  17. #97
    The Kyrian one's problem is the fact is randomly coupled with random CP gain means there's this huge margin for feels bad moments as compared to feels good moments.

    The venthyr one replacing your poison with shadow damage seems like it has anti synergy with multi, which is worrying. Shouldn't covenants be at least DPS neutral?

    Sepsis seems exceedingly strong for all group content; Boss fights will have more vanish windows on trash the cd refund still makes it desirable. I can taste the toxic blade, sepsis, vanish, subterfuge burst windows.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazza View Post
    This is how it works: You get 3 combo points and a buff that states a number. The buff gets consumed when you use a damaging (yeh, no OP kidney shot shenanigans here) finisher with the exact same number of combo points as the number on the buff and that finisher will act as it had 7 combo points.

    Of note is that if you overshoot and have to use a damaging finisher with more (or less, but why would you) combo points, the buff is not consumed and just stays on. So as long as you manage to get a damaging finisher in the rotation with the correct number before the 45 second cd is up this works out fine. If it turns out overshooting the cd only happens very rarely it's probably fine, if not then it's pretty garbage.
    Ok, makes sense. Reading more it seems you also will be able to empower the skill so it animacharges more cp thresholds. Anyway, it's still convoluted.
    Assa will have a very hard time given mutilate and seal fate. Outlaw/sub are a little less impacted but still im the hands of rng.

    I really don't like the design, it surely has an impact on rotation but i am not sure how good this is. I am also very afraid this is going to be the most powerful as a tradeoff for the increased complexity.
    EDIT: its even worse if you think that the empowered cp is random. Good luck if you get 1, and also if you get more 5s than 2s the dps gain drops quite a lot. Layers of rng.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    The Kyrian one's problem is the fact is randomly coupled with random CP gain means there's this huge margin for feels bad moments as compared to feels good moments.

    The venthyr one replacing your poison with shadow damage seems like it has anti synergy with multi, which is worrying. Shouldn't covenants be at least DPS neutral?

    Sepsis seems exceedingly strong for all group content; Boss fights will have more vanish windows on trash the cd refund still makes it desirable. I can taste the toxic blade, sepsis, vanish, subterfuge burst windows.
    The Venthyr one looks it could be a good addition to Sub toolkit. Though it looks just designed with pvp in mind.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2020-05-23 at 06:24 AM.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  19. #99
    High Overlord Mazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Ok, makes sense. Reading more it seems you also will be able to empower the skill so it animacharges more cp thresholds. Anyway, it's still convoluted.
    Assa will have a very hard time given mutilate and seal fate. Outlaw/sub are a little less impacted but still im the hands of rng.
    I agree, because this ends up in a convoluted rotation (that smart players will just make a weakaura for) there is no real middle ground. Either the payout is great and it is mandatory or the payout is mediocer so why bother?

  20. #100
    I don't know, I like it.

    Replacers and passives are always good. I'd rather have a few powerful abilities than 4 bars of gimmicky weak situational buttons.

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