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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    Because it's not customization.


    The game you used to like, it's gone and won't come back.
    It was a once in a lifetime experience, so enjoy what it was, but for it to continue, there's a reason it's lost much of the RPG elements in favor of what we have today.
    Except for the fact they seem to be trying to bring back aspects of the game WoW used to be with mechanics such as covenants and the un-pruning of classes. There's no reason they can't go back to that type of game design. After all, the game was at its most popular when it was "that game we used to like"
    Last edited by Hadriker; 2020-05-05 at 06:34 PM.

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    I think the point they were trying to make is that they would prefer to have to make choices that have consequences than have choices which have no downsides. Which is what we have now. We get all the positives, and no negatives, which often just means that there's very little nuance in the game unless you're at the very top of the game. It makes choice and consequence in the game effectively nonexistent.
    But why is that needed?
    Here is my opinion on this. I understand hard choices when I built a character in a pen n paper RPG or even a CRPG. You choose between multiple options of things to effectively buy from a basket of feats/treasure/etc. with the experience you have accrued. This is not a statement that can be valid in WoW. That part of verisimilitude is long broken; you can change your spec, you can change your talents, you could even change things within existing systems. The hard choice could simply be investment; if there is only so much anima and souls and whatever you can collect per week, then you are not going to be able to progress everything however much you try. And that would actually be organic. But what actually happens is that although you have won the allegiance of everyone you are forced to pick. They don't get to ask for a commitment as well; they need us and are desperate so if I mostly give my anima to the Kyrian but decide to throw some to the Venthyr, neither has the luxury to say no.

    As for consequence, I do not think that how you built your character should be locked in an MMO unless every time they rebalance they give us a respec. If I nerf a feat in D&D and any of my players has it, they get to replace it. And if they have built their character around it, then they get to rebuilt. In WoW balancing is (and should be) constant. Will I get to remake my choices because you decided to rebalance things?
    There are several things that are and will be on consequence in Shadowlands. Combat is still of consequence. You can still die, you still have to make choices every second. You have to decide how you spend your gold. You'll have to be careful with your Torghast runs. You very much have to manage your social interactions. So I don't see the necessity of adding consequence to how your character is built.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But why is that needed?
    Here is my opinion on this. I understand hard choices when I built a character in a pen n paper RPG or even a CRPG. You choose between multiple options of things to effectively buy from a basket of feats/treasure/etc. with the experience you have accrued. This is not a statement that can be valid in WoW. That part of verisimilitude is long broken; you can change your spec, you can change your talents, you could even change things within existing systems. The hard choice could simply be investment; if there is only so much anima and souls and whatever you can collect per week, then you are not going to be able to progress everything however much you try. And that would actually be organic. But what actually happens is that although you have won the allegiance of everyone you are forced to pick. They don't get to ask for a commitment as well; they need us and are desperate so if I mostly give my anima to the Kyrian but decide to throw some to the Venthyr, neither has the luxury to say no.

    As for consequence, I do not think that how you built your character should be locked in an MMO unless every time they rebalance they give us a respec. If I nerf a feat in D&D and any of my players has it, they get to replace it. And if they have built their character around it, then they get to rebuilt. In WoW balancing is (and should be) constant. Will I get to remake my choices because you decided to rebalance things?
    There are several things that are and will be on consequence in Shadowlands. Combat is still of consequence. You can still die, you still have to make choices every second. You have to decide how you spend your gold. You'll have to be careful with your Torghast runs. You very much have to manage your social interactions. So I don't see the necessity of adding consequence to how your character is built.
    Dying is meaningful in WoW? Never was.

    And for the rest of your rant, that is all very much a matter of opinion.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  4. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by Hadriker View Post
    Except for the fact they seem to be trying to bring back aspects of the game WoW used to be with mechanics such as covenants and the un-pruning of classes. There's no reason they can't go back to that type of game design. After all, the game was at its most popular when it was "that game we used to like"
    But it's curious how they pick and choose what should be reverted in design. Unpruning has been something the community has indeed been very vocal about. Has it been as vocal about hard locked choices? Have we ever had any choices that were as complex in gameplay and seemingly as troublesome to alter other than your character creation (faction, race, class)?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Dying is meaningful in WoW? Never was.

    And for the rest of your rant, that is all very much a matter of opinion.
    How on earth was that a rant . . . And this is not about dying, it's about failing. Failing in combat is meaningful in WoW. It means you wipe your group in an instance or lose the game for your group in PvP. Even in world content it means you are wasting time.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But it's curious how they pick and choose what should be reverted in design. Unpruning has been something the community has indeed been very vocal about. Has it been as vocal about hard locked choices? Have we ever had any choices that were as complex in gameplay and seemingly as troublesome to alter other than your character creation (faction, race, class)?

    - - - Updated - - -



    How on earth was that a rant . . . And this is not about dying, it's about failing. Failing in combat is meaningful in WoW. It means you wipe your group in an instance or lose the game for your group in PvP. Even in world content it means you are wasting time.
    And when was the last time you failed a fight because of a wrong talent choice, item or covenant sould bind?
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    And when was the last time you failed a fight because of a wrong talent choice, item or covenant sould bind?
    I've failed quite a few fights by a small percentage and I assume that if someone in the group was built optimally we might have pulled an earlier kill. You think that is never true?
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I've failed quite a few fights by a small percentage and I assume that if someone in the group was built optimally we might have pulled an earlier kill. You think that is never true?
    I think more often it is a matter that someone played suboptimally. Or can you point at some fight were everyone played near perfectly and you still missed by 1%?
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    I think more often it is a matter that someone played suboptimally. Or can you point at some fight were everyone played near perfectly and you still missed by 1%?
    It's never one thing though.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But it's curious how they pick and choose what should be reverted in design. Unpruning has been something the community has indeed been very vocal about. Has it been as vocal about hard locked choices? Have we ever had any choices that were as complex in gameplay and seemingly as troublesome to alter other than your character creation (faction, race, class)?

    - - - Updated - - -

    You could argue the Class Halls in Legion are not much different than covenants. They function in a similar manner. They operated as a separate gathering area for its members. You had borrowed powers in the way of artifact weapons. But you were hard locked into the class hall. You couldn't be a druid and decide to join the warrior class hall.


    Now instead of class halls, we have covenants that are available to everyone. You get to choose which one best suits your character. Each covenant will grant you access to soul binds (basically another version of the artifact talent trees).

    There may be some minor mechanical differences between the two but its the same basic design with a different coat of paint except for one big difference. Now you have to make a choice. You now have some amount of agency over how your character will play in the next expansion. To me, that's exciting and fits exactly into the bringing the RPG back to WoW.

    The whole thing may end up falling flat on its face but I do want them to at least try. If they are able to implement it successfully, it could open up a lot of options for future expansions.

    To me, it seems the critics of the covenant system don't really want to have to make choices. Blizz could have also just as easily locked classes to their thematically relevant covenants and called it a day or they could do what some in this post want them to do. make it easy to switch back and forth.

    They didn't go that direction though. They are taking a bit of a gamble on this i admit, but I am excited to see how it plays out.
    Last edited by Hadriker; 2020-05-05 at 08:19 PM.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    We have had convenants for 15 years? Funny, I don't really them ever being on the live game. So, you have no proof.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I would rahter have to make choices that come with consequences than simply be handed everything.
    Your being handed that choice... its not like covenants are locked behind mythic raiding...

    We have 15 years of wow and not one of these alternative power progression paths have done well since it released. This is just adding another corpse to the heap.

  11. #571
    Im going Kyrian for my paladin no matter what cuz i want the mog.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by Hadriker View Post
    You could argue the Class Halls in Legion are not much different than covenants. They function in a similar manner. They operated as a separate gathering area for its members. You had borrowed powers in the way of artifact weapons. But you were hard locked into the class hall. You couldn't be a druid and decide to join the warrior class hall.


    Now instead of class halls, we have covenants that are available to everyone. You get to choose which one best suits your character. Each covenant will grant you access to soul binds (basically another version of the artifact talent trees).

    There may be some minor mechanical differences between the two but its the same basic design with a different coat of paint except for one big difference. Now you have to make a choice. You now have some amount of agency over how your character will play in the next expansion. To me, that's exciting and fits exactly into the bringing the RPG back to WoW.

    The whole thing may end up falling flat on its face but I do want them to at least try. If they are able to implement it successfully, it could open up a lot of options for future expansions.

    To me, it seems the critics of the covenant system don't really want to have to make choices. Blizz could have also just as easily locked classes to their thematically relevant covenants and called it a day or they could do what some in this post want them to do. make it easy to switch back and forth.

    They didn't go that direction though. They are taking a bit of a gamble on this i admit, but I am excited to see how it plays out.
    Here is the thing. Class Halls are an extension of character creation. You picked a class, and that's what you cannot change.
    And here is the thing. The one thing that was reasonably hard to change in the Class Hall was how you spend your AP. You had to make a choice, it was not easily reversible. But at the same time, it did not limit you. You could use all three (or two or four) of your specs. You just had to leave some a bit behind. And that could have worked well with Covenants. You get the basic abilities and then you have to choose how you progress your soulbinds. And you cannot keep twelve soulbinds equal and equipped (because you also need to add 4 relics on each soulbind so that would be a freaking FOURTY EIGHT of them). So the hard choice is still there
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  13. #573
    Class halls are big inns where ppl compare their transmog and size of their weapons

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Here is the thing. Class Halls are an extension of character creation. You picked a class, and that's what you cannot change.
    And here is the thing. The one thing that was reasonably hard to change in the Class Hall was how you spend your AP. You had to make a choice, it was not easily reversible. But at the same time, it did not limit you. You could use all three (or two or four) of your specs. You just had to leave some a bit behind. And that could have worked well with Covenants. You get the basic abilities and then you have to choose how you progress your soulbinds. And you cannot keep twelve soulbinds equal and equipped (because you also need to add 4 relics on each soulbind so that would be a freaking FOURTY EIGHT of them). So the hard choice is still there


    it seems Blizzard wants us to view covenants as an extension of our character creation as well. Like I said its the same basic premise as class halls except implemented in a slightly different fashion. The specific mechanics of how each work isn't really relevant, its the same basic principle, except this time you are having to make a choice. It seems the critics do not want to have to make a choice, out of fear of making the "wrong" choice. So they just want access to everything.
    Last edited by Hadriker; 2020-05-05 at 08:56 PM.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Hadriker View Post
    it seems Blizzard wants us to view covenants as an extension of our character creation as well. Like I said its the same basic premise as class halls except implemented in a slightly different fashion. The specific mechanics of how each work isn't really relevant, its the same basic principle, except this time you are having to make a choice. It seems the critics do not want to have to make a choice, out of fear of making the "wrong" choice. So they just want access to everything.
    But what about the people who want to make every choice? I am a paladin but there are now 4 different ways to play paladin and I can only have one unless I run four paladins. 12 classes is enough for me I don't need 48 classes. A Night Fae Paladin will play distinctively different than a Kyrian one.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But what about the people who want to make every choice? I am a paladin but there are now 4 different ways to play paladin and I can only have one unless I run four paladins. 12 classes is enough for me I don't need 48 classes. A Night Fae Paladin will play distinctively different than a Kyrian one.
    Why do you expect to be able to have everything? That's a silly notion.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  17. #577
    My one and only gripe with the Covenants... Is that I want the Transmog stuff from Covenant A but I want the ability from Covenant C. Looking at the big picture though, I am happy to see a choice that actually matters, and I see it as encouragement to choose what you like because you won't know if the abilities will be nerfed or buffed in the future, so you can choose what looks the most fun to you.

    As a holy priest, i like the idea of being able to use my heals to deal damage with. It's one of the big flaws Holy has right now, we can't keep up with other healers in terms of damage while healng. We'll be able to hard burst stuff with our Holy Words, and then go back to healing.

    Now we just need something useful to cast while moving, instead of Renew which doesn't scale off our best stat.

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Why do you expect to be able to have everything? That's a silly notion.
    Right? the demand to have access to everything is a big reason WoW is what it currently is. Limitations in design is not a bad thing.

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Why do you expect to be able to have everything? That's a silly notion.
    To be able to have everything with YOUR CLASS is the achieve to reach for many players in WoW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadriker View Post
    Right? the demand to have access to everything is a big reason WoW is what it currently is. Limitations in design is not a bad thing.
    Which limitations we had in BC and WOTLK? Most of my friends left WoW for bad class desing pruned to the ground, rly low new content, like 3 expansions and 2 new dungeons in 2 years of expansion. Bug since alpha that still there unfixed etc.

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarou View Post
    To be able to have everything with YOUR CLASS is the achieve to reach for many players in WoW
    Yeah, you can have all covenants, just not at the same time. Just like you cant have all specs at the same time.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

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