Shadowlands Covenants - Making the choice. Is it really as bad as people think?

[Logwyn]

Why am I being forced to pick a Covenant? What if I don't like any of them and they can all go sit in their pretty castles.

[Verazh]

I don't mind that I sacrifice power to get what I want the most and agree that to make a choice meaningful this needs to happen in an RPG.

However what I do mind is if I "have to" choose a covenant based on the class covenant ability. say Im a warlock and mainly affliction, say the Kyrian class ability is by far the best. This leaves me with an aesthetic I can't relate to as a warlock. Same applies for a Death Knight or Demon Hunter.

[Acidbaron]

Yes a single mode of raid or dungeon reused 3 to 4 times... so many resources!

Adapting shouldn't mean put in more and more and more hours into content that doesn't interest you in order to do content that does... again lfr requiring mythic is absurd. Mythic requiring trivial content is just as absurd.

Raids remain a resource expensive development.

All the rest of your quote has nothing to say with what i was talking about. Nowhere did i state anything about LFR or higher end players needed trivial content but if you want to see how absurd your reasoning is when it comes to trivial content 'levelling and questing' is also trivial content and last i checked since the removal of tier and how quest items drop per week once regardless of what version you play, i don't see how anyone is forcing you to do anything.

So i have no idea what you are even talking about right now and how this relates to my reply.

[Adam Jensen]

I think it's gonna be terrible. Like many people I like to do both pvp (Arenas mostly) and raiding/m+.

I know it's gonna piss me off when I have to go into arenas with a subpar toolkit because I chose the covenant that is best for raiding.

I feel like if you fail at arena because you don't have the exactly optimal covenant, then it's probably PEBKAC.

[Amariw]

Why can't the covenant plot and campaign be the rpg choice?ability choice will just feel bad in situations you know you might have had more fun with a different ability. Rpg choices of power that can't be easily switched just don't fit modern wow. Rpg choices of plot can be very cool and should be added on their own, not whilst also forcing you into power choices. Just make it class-wide talents and focus on covenant campaigns.

[huth]

Why can't the covenant plot and campaign be the rpg choice?ability choice will just feel bad in situations you know you might have had more fun with a different ability. Rpg choices of power that can't be easily switched just don't fit modern wow. Rpg choices of plot can be very cool and should be added on their own, not whilst also forcing you into power choices. Just make it class-wide talents and focus on covenant campaigns.

You could read the thread, you know. That's basically what we've been discussing the last 35 pages.

[Woobels]

This Covenant shit alone is enough to put me off from buying Shadowlands. I don't care about "choice", I care about fun gameplay and fun gameplay is enhanced by having options.

[Beefhammer]

I don't mind that I sacrifice power to get what I want the most and agree that to make a choice meaningful this needs to happen in an RPG.

However what I do mind is if I "have to" choose a covenant based on the class covenant ability. say Im a warlock and mainly affliction, say the Kyrian class ability is by far the best. This leaves me with an aesthetic I can't relate to as a warlock. Same applies for a Death Knight or Demon Hunter.

That's why I said good thing we have transmogrification. You don't have to use that aesthetic.

[Laughingjack]

Well, the solution to this perceived issue where you'd level multiples of your main to pick all 4 covenants appears to be an unsavory one, but likely unnecessary. That's the point I'm trying to get at. Blizzard has designed something, and rather than taking it as designed you've tried to find a way to circumvent it, and in a way that would make you upset at the game and developers as a result. When the alternative is so much less stressful, that it's surprising to see that it's not even an option for serious players. It's a bit baffling to be frank, because it's so obvious, but you've been stuck in your ways for so long you've even previously stated you can't wrap your head around how we think. I think that's equal parts our fault as well for not presenting our arguments well and being needlessly antagonistic.

Basically, take the design for what Blizzard has stated the intention is.

Except the counter point is nonsensical... I am told repeatedly that the average player doesn't care so why would they want to be locked into a talent if they simply want to pick what appeals to them most?

This system only offers disadvantages if you want to play multiple aspects of the game. If it runs counter to game play why is it being it added to start with?

- - - Updated - - -

Only because you keep insisting on seeing everything as black and white. So it's mostly a you issue.

Yes I do tend to deal in facts not feelings it makes me a real bitch to argue against.

- - - Updated - - -

- - - Updated - - -

Theres a difference between being apathetic to everything and not needing to 100% shit. You should know this from your own life as you would have never started playing videogames as you would still be busy perfecting your homework, being the best rock paper scissors player, English speaker/writer, cook, etc.....

Except the argument he is making is that the majority of players are apathetic and at best are picking talents and abilities randomly. With such a argument it begs the question why is a choice that can only be changed through a arduous grind a positive one?

He has yet to offer a rebuttal or anyone else for that matter beyond enjoying role playing.

[Beefhammer]

I feel like if you fail at arena because you don't have the exactly optimal covenant, then it's probably PEBKAC.

I kind of feel those complaining about not being able to function in an area opposite of their covenant choice truly suffer from that. Again, 1 talent will not make or break things for anyone not in the top few % of that chosen activity, which is pretty much, mostly everyone here posting.

- - - Updated - - -

Except the counter point is nonsensical... I am told repeatedly that the average player doesn't care so why would they want to be locked into a talent if they simply want to pick what appeals to them most?

This system only offers disadvantages if you want to play multiple aspects of the game. If it runs counter to game play why is it being it added to start with?

- - - Updated - - -



Yes I do tend to deal in facts not feelings it makes me a real bitch to argue against.

- - - Updated - - -

- - - Updated - - -



Except the argument he is making is that the majority of players are apathetic and at best are picking talents and abilities randomly. With such a argument it begs the question why is a choice that can only be changed through a arduous grind a positive one?

He has yet to offer a rebuttal or anyone else for that matter beyond enjoying role playing.

Percieved disadvantages. Not been fully tested nor tuned to even know. Again, it's one talent.

[Laughingjack]

I feel like if you fail at arena because you don't have the exactly optimal covenant, then it's probably PEBKAC.

Have you ever played beyond 2k were picking loadout against certain teams makes or breaks a match?

PvP is you against another player if they can outright beat you via a ability you don't have the odds of you winning drastically fall. WoW isn't a twitch shooter if someone has a better tool kit and near equal skill they are the ones who are going to win.

- - - Updated - - -

I kind of feel those complaining about not being able to function in an area opposite of their covenant choice truly suffer from that. Again, 1 talent will not make or break things for anyone not in the top few % of that chosen activity, which is pretty much, mostly everyone here posting.

- - - Updated - - -



Percieved disadvantages. Not been fully tested nor tuned to even know. Again, it's one talent.

It has been 15 fucking years. They have fucked up this alternative power shit since glyphs. Please don't ask people capable of learning from history to "wait and see" simply because you cannot.

[Tarba]

Liking that stupid convenant idea is basically being against talent respec. Not against respec with a little gold price like we had before. Just against respec.
"Ho you chose that talent for raiding? And now you dare want to pvp? Well, fuck you."
And I'm not even talking about rp. You want that ability for your forsaken eater of children? Well you have to be friend with the bland goody 2 shoes. Or your character is a paramount of vertue? well to bad their ability is shite, so you have to go with the corrupted ones. Or just lose the abilities you wanted.
Have fun!

So basically in any case, instead of being very lucky, and only the covenant you liked has that usefull ability for everything you do in game and will never be nerfed, you are fucked. Or you don't care about some aspects of your character.

[huth]

Yes I do tend to deal in facts not feelings it makes me a real bitch to argue against.

No, you mostly deal with feelings and oversimplified models that fit yours best while ignoring facts. Which makes you impossible to argue against because you don't accept arguments.

The world is not black and white, especially not the factual world. There are no simple categories you can divide people into.

[Beefhammer]

Have you ever played beyond 2k were picking loadout against certain teams makes or breaks a match?

PvP is you against another player if they can outright beat you via a ability you don't have the odds of you winning drastically fall. WoW isn't a twitch shooter if someone has a better tool kit and near equal skill they are the ones who are going to win.

- - - Updated - - -



It has been 15 fucking years. They have fucked up this alternative power shit since glyphs. Please don't ask people capable of learning from history to "wait and see" simply because you cannot.

Oh please. You guys are worrying about 1 ability. One ability has never been so OP that a player has been deemed useless if they didn't use, nor has prevented a guild, a raid team, or dungeon group from being successful.

[Laughingjack]

No, you mostly deal with feelings and oversimplified models that fit yours best while ignoring facts. Which makes you impossible to argue against because you don't accept arguments.

The world is not black and white, especially not the factual world. There are no simple categories you can divide people into.

What emotional arguments have I used then?

This system will negatively impact people who wish to excel in more then one area in the game while at the same time I am told repeatedly that the average player doesn't care about whats best. I can accept that argument but it begs the question. If they don't care regardless why have such a system.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh please. You guys are worrying about 1 ability. One ability has never been so OP that a player has been deemed useless if they didn't use, nor has prevented a guild, a raid team, or dungeon group from being successful.

I mean I can point to every fight that needs immunity to show that your wrong... even ones that don't require it like n'zoth it helps make the encounter far more manageable like ra-den.

[ymirsson]

I mean I can point to every fight that needs immunity to show that your wrong... even ones that don't require it like n'zoth it helps make the encounter far more manageable like ra-den.

If you are as good as you are implying, why would you need that crutch?

[Beefhammer]

What emotional arguments have I used then?

This system will negatively impact people who wish to excel in more then one area in the game while at the same time I am told repeatedly that the average player doesn't care about whats best. I can accept that argument but it begs the question. If they don't care regardless why have such a system.

- - - Updated - - -



I mean I can point to every fight that needs immunity to show that your wrong... even ones that don't require it like n'zoth it helps make the encounter far more manageable like ra-den.

Alright, list me every fight that immunity talents were required and what talents were required to be picked. If it's baseline ability or something gained from a pot or on use ability it doesn't count.

[qwerty123456]

Except the argument he is making is that the majority of players are apathetic and at best are picking talents and abilities randomly. With such a argument it begs the question why is a choice that can only be changed through a arduous grind a positive one?

He has yet to offer a rebuttal or anyone else for that matter beyond enjoying role playing.

Picking talents because you think the skill is cool, you feel you have too many active skills, you have an easier time using it over the "better one", you don't have addons and it seems to you that it does more dmg/healing, are all also reasons a person may pick a talent that isn't roleplaying and are not apathetic.

Some people play the game for the story, even non-roleplayers, its shocking I know. So when some players that are so shit at the game that they need to cookiecutter what ever they heard was best just to get at a somewhat respectable level because they have no skill of their own try to ruin the story even more by making story skills (which classes are also btw) easily swapable because they can't be assed to actually play the game and put work in when they want to change them of course those people are going to be pissed. Hell even people who don't give a shit about story but like hard choices that can be changed by putting work in can be upset too.

Also if you truly are this perfection player then you should easily have a billion + gold as the ah and gold are integral parts of the game. And if thats the case then pm me your server and charname and I'll make a toon on your server and you can give me 12 million gold cause if you can give a random person 12 million gold then clearly you have perfected your gold making skills and I'll come back on here and let everyone know how good you are.

[Lolites]

There are no simple categories you can divide people into.

disagree, i can simply divide people into two categories
1. reasonable people, that use logic
2. people like Laughingjack

[Acidbaron]

I feel like if you fail at arena because you don't have the exactly optimal covenant, then it's probably PEBKAC.

This can be applied to PvE as well, while some things might make it easier it is by no means a necessity and often when something could bypass a mechanic it was considered exploiting.

As i stated before i would really like to see some ratings/rankings behind people who claim that it is.