Shadowlands Covenants - Making the choice. Is it really as bad as people think?

[facefist]

It would be if changing your talents wasn't something you could do on a whim. As is, people change talents to fit the fight, not tactics to fit their talents. Talents are impactfull, but not choices.

You've got the whole thing backwards.

Words of a player who has never played in a top-end guild that has to make their own tactics and builds, instead of reading the first guides available to pick the "best talents" and "best strategy".

Several tactics are tried and for many classes, it requires trying several different talent builds. If talent builds were locked, then the choice of trying the other tactic that requires different talents would not be available. Essentially it is a choice of choosing the strategy AND matching talents for it, because neither is locked in and there are usually several valid tactics. Drawing from this, making the choice of one specific covenant ability might kill the choice of using a tactic that requires different covenant ability. You're making this black and white because you don't understand how different the game is for top players.

It's true that the former is a rare scenario and fits only a small playerbase, but you don't seem to understand that small minority you are not part of.

IT"S ONE FUCKING ABILITY PEOPLE.

I don't think that people care if it's not super meaningful. Most people that are against this probably have a fear that some abilities are either super broken, or the ability they pick in the beginning will be nerfed to be total shit. ONE FUCKING LEGENDARY made a single target dps difference of more than 10 % for fire mages in the beginning of Legion and it was fucking stupid (until I got the bracers myself and shit on all mages that did not have them). That is pretty meaningful.

If you cant make a bad choice, why have a choice in the first place?

Is it even a real choice, when 99 % of the players are just going to google "best covenant for class X for raiding/m+/pvp"?

[Soon-TM]

ONE FUCKING ABILITY PEOPLE.

"One fucking ability" may break the game (or at least certain parts of it) if it isn't properly balanced. While the picture is certainly still incomplete, there are legit grounds to doubt about Blizzard getting everything right from the get go.

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You won't be unique. You won't ever for a moment be unique in this game so banish the thought. You are actively harming game play in your absurd desire to be a snowflake. If you want a lol so random game go and play one but wow will never ever be that game.

Exactly this. Uniqueness can work in a game that can be completed entirely in single player mode, e.g. D2 or Path of Exile. But not in a game where you are have to cooperate on a consistent basis with other players in order to succeed. At least for anything beyond Normal raids or random BGs.

Taking the non-optimal choice is placing a burden on your fellow players, it's just that simple.

[Laughingjack]

This is the thing. The complainers here that participate in multiple activities change out some talents for each activity. They act as if this one covenant choice will supersede all their talents or that they will be unable to change talents again. IT"S ONE FUCKING ABILITY PEOPLE. Choose the one you like the most. If you choose the ST one for raiding, nothing prevents you form making the best AoE build for M+ and using that ST ability on bosses in M+. Again, the sky is falling and you have about 33% of the total information available to you.

Play a fire mage without using combustion or a havok demon hunter without metamorphosis. It is only one ability it shouldn't hinder you right?

[Beefhammer]

Well, in MoP we had Horde racials which were "ONE FUCKING ABILITY" and that was all it took to kill Alliance raiding scene.

Raided as Alliance and didn notice any issues recruiting or puggung. Or did you mean the progression side of things?

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"One fucking ability" may break the game (or at least certain parts of it) if it isn't properly balanced. While the picture is certainly still incomplete, there are legit grounds to doubt about Blizzard getting everything right from the get go.

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Exactly this. Uniqueness can work in a game that can be completed entirely in single player mode, e.g. D2 or Path of Exile. But not in a game where you are have to cooperate on a consistent basis with other players in order to succeed. At least for anything beyond Normal raids or random BGs.

Taking the non-optimal choice is placing a burden on your fellow players, it's just that simple.

True, but the initial goal is to not have them be a huge balance issue. Not just toss out powerful level 90 or 100 abilities and go from there.

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Play a fire mage without using combustion or a havok demon hunter without metamorphosis. It is only one ability it shouldn't hinder you right?

Thise are baseline core abilities it talents you have to choose over another. Try again.

[Quro]

You won't be unique. You won't ever for a moment be unique in this game so banish the thought. You are actively harming game play in your absurd desire to be a snowflake.

With that mindset, why have things like talents at all then? Let's make every mage/hunter/paladin exactly the same as every other mage/hunter/paladin. In fact, let's remove variable stats and gear too, while we're at it. Then we can all just focus on getting good with no distractions.

[Laughingjack]

With that mindset, why have things like talents at all then? Let's make every mage/hunter/paladin exactly the same as every other mage/hunter/paladin. In fact, let's remove variable stats and gear too, while we're at it. Then we can all just focus on getting good with no distractions.

I mean I would be down for that but I imagine people would complain.

[Quro]

I mean I would be down for that but I imagine people would complain.

Have you considered playing something like a shooter then? If you detest customization that much.

[Laughingjack]

Have you considered playing something like a shooter then? If you detest customization that much.

Have you considered playing pathfinder?

I find it weird how the people wanting drastic changes are the ones demanding others leave?

[huth]

Words of a player who has never played in a top-end guild that has to make their own tactics and builds, instead of reading the first guides available to pick the "best talents" and "best strategy".

So you say, and then you just repeat what i said without even realising. There is no choice. Talents are mandated by the fight, even if a different tactic mandates different talents. It's still not up to the player what talents they use.

Besides, those top end players have actually spoken in favour of hard to switch Covenants. Think about that a bit.

Taking the non-optimal choice is placing a burden on your fellow players, it's just that simple.

If there is a choice that is always preferable or it is reasonable to expect you to change them as needed. Otherwise, it's a necessity of playing the game, as always being optimal would be impossible.

[sensei-]

Normally I don’t side with the doom and gloomers and other alarmists, but with this case they are on to something.

But I don’t worry as much as they do about the difference of ”Elysian Decree” to ”the Hunt” as DPS abilities, because I’m sure the numbers tuning will be sharp with these, as I’m concerned about the basic covenant abilities:

There is simply no way that Door of Shadows, a 35 yard demonic gateway on a 1 minute CD is balanced with any of the other basic abilities. For PvP it’s obviously useful as a mobility tool, for raiding it’s useful for everyone and nigh mandatory for classes that could use extra mobility, and for mythic+ it actually enables the player to skip packs, go up vertical terrain and many other useful things. For m+ it’s very close to ”venthyr or gtfo”.

Nothing Blizzard has stated so far has implied they intend to fix this. They are more concerned that DPS ability 1 would do equal damage of DPS ability 2. That won’t make any difference. It’s the humongous discrepancies in utility that are worrying.

[facefist]

So you say, and then you just repeat what i said without even realising. There is no choice. Talents are mandated by the fight, even if a different tactic mandates different talents. It's still not up to the player what talents they use.

Besides, those top end players have actually spoken in favour of hard to switch Covenants. Think about that a bit.

It's cute how you believe that there will be actual choice for the top-end guilds. Guess what, the covenant choice will be mandated by the final boss of the tier. You are free to pick any talent = you have the choice. You are free to pick any covenant = you have the choice. If you pick non-optimal talents or a bad covenant in a semi serious guild = you won't be invited. There is no real choice if you want to be a part of serious raiding team, and whether you can change the thing instantly or not does not make a difference. I don't know how this is so hard concept to grasp, the choice is made by the balancing team of Blizzard whether it is talents or covenant abilities.

You mistake the choice of a casual player to a choice of a player who plays more serious. And yes, I am not against hard to switch Covenants and that is not my point, it won't affect me greatly. I am just pointing out how you look at this as a black and white issue.

[huth]

You mistake the choice of a casual player to a choice of a player who plays more serious. And yes, I am not against hard to switch Covenants and that is not my point, it won't affect me greatly. I am just pointing out how you look at this as a black and white issue.

No, you're not. You're mistaking an argument about talents as they are now specificially not being a choice for an argument about something completely different, and accuse me of something you don't appear to even have bothered checking if it is true.

[facefist]

No, you're not. You're mistaking an argument about talents as they are now specificially not being a choice for an argument about something completely different, and accuse me of something you don't appear to even have bothered checking if it is true.

No, you just don't understand the concept of choice.

[huth]

No, you just don't understand the concept of choice.

And then you proceed to move the goalposts, presumably due to a lack of actual arguments.

[Laughingjack]

And then you proceed to move the goalposts, presumably due to a lack of actual arguments.

Nah hes right you really don't grasp what the concept of choice is.

[Advent]

You won't be unique. You won't ever for a moment be unique in this game so banish the thought. You are actively harming game play in your absurd desire to be a snowflake. If you want a lol so random game go and play one but wow will never ever be that game.

If you want to be unique just only cast one spell you will be met with the same amount of disdain as your goal with what you want covenants to be. You are actively supporting systems that harm game play in a absurd effort to make the game into something it never was.

Have you considered getting good? It is one of the few ways to be unique in WoW. I know I haven't actually ran into another character using my elite mog in the past 5 years. Getting good is the one true way of standing out in a crowd.

And I'd argue that making the game competitive, or focusing at all on high end skill is to its detriment. There appear to be a multitude of players who want the game to return to a more inclusive community, and competitive, skill-based games are some of the most exclusive and aggressive games out there. WoW used to reward time spent, not skill, because it wasn't designed to be a test of skill or player ability. I enjoyed the game more then, because personal character progression was based entirely on how interested I was in the game long-term, not how fast or good I was. I'm as good at this game as I'm ever going to be, and we'll never agree that wow is better as a competitive E-sport type of game. Plenty of games do that better without compromising the core aspects of a traditional MMO to do it.

[Soon-TM]

And I'd argue that making the game competitive, or focusing at all on high end skill is to its detriment. There appear to be a multitude of players who want the game to return to a more inclusive community, and competitive, skill-based games are some of the most exclusive and aggressive games out there. WoW used to reward time spent, not skill, because it wasn't designed to be a test of skill or player ability. I enjoyed the game more then, because personal character progression was based entirely on how interested I was in the game long-term, not how fast or good I was. I'm as good at this game as I'm ever going to be, and we'll never agree that wow is better as a competitive E-sport type of game. Plenty of games do that better without compromising the core aspects of a traditional MMO to do it.

That's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't change the fact that WoW has a competitive scene, one which is actively sponsored by Blizzard themselves. As long as that competitive scene exists, there will be minmaxing - especially when PvE has been becoming more and more complex over the years. So, you either kill the competitive scene in order to promote Meaningful Options™ - or you keep the competitive elements, and try to design your game accordingly.

I personally would be fine with either, but not with those half baked compromises which seem to be Blizzard's specialty as of late.

[Laughingjack]

And I'd argue that making the game competitive, or focusing at all on high end skill is to its detriment. There appear to be a multitude of players who want the game to return to a more inclusive community, and competitive, skill-based games are some of the most exclusive and aggressive games out there. WoW used to reward time spent, not skill, because it wasn't designed to be a test of skill or player ability. I enjoyed the game more then, because personal character progression was based entirely on how interested I was in the game long-term, not how fast or good I was. I'm as good at this game as I'm ever going to be, and we'll never agree that wow is better as a competitive E-sport type of game. Plenty of games do that better without compromising the core aspects of a traditional MMO to do it.

No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.

I am going to assume you are talking about vanilla as even mid tbc has skill checks slowly creep into the game itself... Have you ever thought that maybe the problem isn't the game but your perspective of it? I can't recall a wow that rewarded time investment more then skill even going back to vanilla.

If you want wow to be a low skill high time investment game their is always the option of not pushing past heroic or normal raiding or you can run under a mythic +10.

The problem with these systems is the effects they have on those that do want a challenge. As for community... well you have to build that yourself. I can't help you with that. The community I am a part of is massive with hundreds of members on my server hanging out and constantly pugging but its my kind of community not yours. Access is only gained after becoming a raiding member of a handful of mythic guilds.

Build your own community and find people that care. My quarrel honestly isn't with you but its spawned from the annoyance of knowing that another horrible system is going to be pushed into the game that in the end won't help anyone.

[huth]

That's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't change the fact that WoW has a competitive scene, one which is actively sponsored by Blizzard themselves. As long as that competitive scene exists, there will be minmaxing - especially when PvE has been becoming more and more complex over the years. So, you either kill the competitive scene in order to promote Meaningful Options™ - or you keep the competitive elements, and try to design your game accordingly.

I personally would be fine with either, but not with those half baked compromises which seem to be Blizzard's specialty as of late.

And they will continue to do that, with or without Covenants. They add an additional knob, not a nail to the coffin.

[Advent]

No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.

I am going to assume you are talking about vanilla as even mid tbc has skill checks slowly creep into the game itself... Have you ever thought that maybe the problem isn't the game but your perspective of it? I can't recall a wow that rewarded time investment more then skill even going back to vanilla.

If you want wow to be a low skill high time investment game their is always the option of not pushing past heroic or normal raiding or you can run under a mythic +10.

The problem with these systems is the effects they have on those that do want a challenge. As for community... well you have to build that yourself. I can't help you with that. The community I am a part of is massive with hundreds of members on my server hanging out and constantly pugging but its my kind of community not yours. Access is only gained after becoming a raiding member of a handful of mythic guilds.

Build your own community and find people that care. My quarrel honestly isn't with you but its spawned from the annoyance of knowing that another horrible system is going to be pushed into the game that in the end won't help anyone.

That's not necessarily what I want. I'd simply prefer if the high end community would accept that the way they play the game is not who the design team should focus on. Especially if catering to them at all would compromise a new game system to just so that they don't go out of their way to circumvent it. Because every time the competitive-minded players try to get around a system, they wind up hating the game or the developers for it, based on a choice they made for themselves. I believe the game was more accepting and less strict when they didn't design for the high end very much.

I've been in the raid scene before, and I'm very confident that I could jump right back in with no trouble and clear mythic raids. But I don't like how people in that space seem to feel like the game should revolve around how they play when they represent such a small part of the game's players