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  1. #841
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    There is one that has been there from the start, and is still unchanged. Class selection.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Being good at something also doesn't magically give you insight into proper development and design of said thing. Nor does it make you more important from a business PoV. The 97% pay the bills, not the 3%.
    Heavens no one disputes class selection as meaningfull choice. But no one says covenants destroy anything class overarching. This is a basic balance problem which will never be solved. And doesn't need to. Everyone can do something (except Shadowpriests).
    The problem is class specific.

    That stupid argument that classes are the same as the covenant abilities is so annoying and wrong. Because you completly throw out everything everyone put into his/her character up to that point and you can play more characters. But playing mroe than 3 characters is difficult as it is. If those abilities are balanced like corruption you need 4 characters per class. This just gets tedious at some point.

    There are so many good arguments on both sides but that: "We allready have classes as a choice why don't you have a problem with that!" is the most horrible argument ever just to annoy the person you are talking to because you know damn well that this is something different. But hey. People in this threat on the "more choices" side don't even try to see the other side and rather insult them. Cobined with that weird numbers everyone seem to have. One says only 1% raids. You say only 3%. Which are numbers out of thin air. The last numbers we had are from WoD and these are a good deal bigger in favour of poeple who raid.

    Also insinuating that EVERYONE else cares about the choice more than having those abilities as if you talk for the 99%! There are a good deal more players who do NOT play for thoses choices and like to play to their capabilities on a lower difficulty/not raid etc as people in this thread think or people who don't care at all.

    This whole threat is just an echochamber for people who HATE raiders for whatever reason. As if blizz catered to them. They did not. Raiders and high end players get sticks thrown between their legs all the time. Be it MasterLoot, AoE changes, Grinding ressources and whatnot. The original reason for the discussion got completly overshadowed by people who try to proove that raiders are just assholes who don't bring anything for Blizz. Which Blizz aparantly did not see for 15 years...

  2. #842
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Being good at something also doesn't magically give you insight into proper development and design of said thing. Nor does it make you more important from a business PoV. The 97% pay the bills, not the 3%.
    Paying the bills has nothing to do with anything because I was specifically speaking about design decisions take place in such a way as to not affect the majority of blizzard's valued playerbase. Hence my use for the example of the difference between skill floor and skill ceiling.

    Being good at the game doesn't magically do anything that's correct, however, it's a pretty good indicator your understand the underlying mechanics and any flaws of those mechanics. This is demonstrably true in a game like wow that's predominantly math. Jeff Kaplan's EQ rants and Ion's history with EJ attest to this.

    Also from a business PoV obviously the minority of the players can't be worth more than the majority yes but that's a simplistic and flippant analysis. A single skilled player can disproportionally bring more worth to your game than a host of blizzard's valued majority. Leaving aside the esports angle as it's largely (but not entirely) tangendental to WoW. We live in the age of the twitch streamer, someone like Sco generates more worth for the game on an individual level than a host of blizzard's valued majority.

  3. #843
    Blizzard is playing the long game.

    Instead of farming a few gear sets for one class, now you're going to level up 4 different characters of the same class if you want to play competitive in every game aspect(PvP/raids/M+/etc.)!

  4. #844
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    good at the game doesn't magically do anything that's correct, however, it's a pretty good indicator your understand the underlying mechanics and any flaws of those mechanics.
    From the PoV of a player. Which does neither confer the necessary knowledge nor skills to do the same from the PoV of a developer and actually develop fixes for the issues, or determine whether fixing it is even worth the cost.

    Paying the bills has nothing to do with anything because I was specifically speaking about design decisions take place in such a way as to not affect the majority of blizzard's valued playerbase. Hence my use for the example of the difference between skill floor and skill ceiling.
    That still leaves it for you to show that your assertion has any actual truth to it. I'm rather doubtfull, since, if nothing else, it would mean a disproportionate allocation of development resources to a group that is only a small fraction of the playerbase.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Heavens no one disputes class selection as meaningfull choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    One says only 1% raids. You say only 3%. Which are numbers out of thin air. The last numbers we had are from WoD and these are a good deal bigger in favour of poeple who raid.
    Congratulations on not paying any attention to the context and completely missing what i was talking about.

    I never said anybody disputes classes as being meaningfull, nor did i say 3% raid. In fact, if you had paid any attention to what i was responding to, you'd have noticed the 3% are from a different game.

  5. #845
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    From the PoV of a player. Which does neither confer the necessary knowledge nor skills to do the same from the PoV of a developer and actually develop fixes for the issues, or determine whether fixing it is even worth the cost.



    That still leaves it for you to show that your assertion has any actual truth to it. I'm rather doubtfull, since, if nothing else, it would mean a disproportionate allocation of development resources to a group that is only a small fraction of the playerbase.
    Do you think quoting someone mid sentence is really the best way to refute arguments?

    Developers do put more stock in the opinion of more knowledgeable players this can be clearly seen from every alpha. After the media gets in the most skilled players get in then it opens to random players.

  6. #846
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    I mean your meaningful choice is going to be to take whatever a guide tells you to pick... I don't understand why we are pretending this is some new concept to the community.

    To quote the npc's my alt runs into

    "I've heard this story before"
    I see you've decided to skip reading the thread and go straight to the toxicity. That's a bold.move. There are many playstyles out there and because you're embarrassed of the way you Google ”hOw To WiNzOr WoW" doesn't make it the dominant way people play. Take this website, everyone's a pro waiting for a callup to Method and everyone else is fucking shit. You would expect that if everyone reads the guides as you do there wouldn't be so many shit players.

    I have actually played the game since the beginning and I have been to the top of the mountain so to speak. I know what it takes to succeed at this game and picking the optimal path doesn't guarentee it. Choice is a part of it and people are complaining that blizzard is forcing them to choose and I will be choosing based on my current thoughts are not what some website tells me to as most people will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  7. #847
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    From the PoV of a player. Which does neither confer the necessary knowledge nor skills to do the same from the PoV of a developer and actually develop fixes for the issues, or determine whether fixing it is even worth the cost.



    That still leaves it for you to show that your assertion has any actual truth to it. I'm rather doubtfull, since, if nothing else, it would mean a disproportionate allocation of development resources to a group that is only a small fraction of the playerbase.

    - - - Updated - - -




    Congratulations on not paying any attention to the context and completely missing what i was talking about.

    I never said anybody disputes classes as being meaningfull, nor did i say 3% raid. In fact, if you had paid any attention to what i was responding to, you'd have noticed the 3% are from a different game.
    Then why bring classes up?
    You talked about lol numbers. Fair enough. But if you don't draw any paralles to the discussion why is it even here?

    Running theme in this thread. 1. bring up why poeple don't have a problem with class selection 2. throw in the 1%.

    Maybe it lashed out at the wrong one here. Point still stands.

  8. #848
    I think it depends on what class you play.

    Like, the Venthyr covenant ability for mages is basically all PvP. You summon mirrors around a target, everytime they cast a spell they take a certain, insignificant amount of damage, when each mirror is consumed they take a decent amount of damage and are silenced.

    Whoop-de-dooo
    Attention all members of staff, corporate asks that in these trying pandemic times we stay safe and avoid spreading the virus, therefore please remain at your desks at all times, you ARE allowed to contact friends and family using company phones, but you must always maintain productivity. Leaving your desk will result in a written warning, and leaving the office will result in immediate termination.

  9. #849
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    I see you've decided to skip reading the thread and go straight to the toxicity. That's a bold.move. There are many playstyles out there and because you're embarrassed of the way you Google ”hOw To WiNzOr WoW" doesn't make it the dominant way people play. Take this website, everyone's a pro waiting for a callup to Method and everyone else is fucking shit. You would expect that if everyone reads the guides as you do there wouldn't be so many shit players.

    I have actually played the game since the beginning and I have been to the top of the mountain so to speak. I know what it takes to succeed at this game and picking the optimal path doesn't guarentee it. Choice is a part of it and people are complaining that blizzard is forcing them to choose and I will be choosing based on my current thoughts are not what some website tells me to as most people will.
    Method doesn't have the best players though. They have good players with exorbitant amounts of time on their hands. Blow for blow they rarely have the best of the best.

    If you have been where you claim to of been you know the real deciding factor is how many funnel runs you can do these days over being 100% at your best. 90% will do.

  10. #850
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    From the PoV of a player. Which does neither confer the necessary knowledge nor skills to do the same from the PoV of a developer and actually develop fixes for the issues, or determine whether fixing it is even worth the cost.
    Holy disingenuous argument batman. Cutting off my examples of what you just described occurring in wow makes your point weaker than either conceding it or simply not addressing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    That still leaves it for you to show that your assertion has any actual truth to it. I'm rather doubtfull, since, if nothing else, it would mean a disproportionate allocation of development resources to a group that is only a small fraction of the playerbase.
    Let me see if there's an appropriate retort, oh yes here it is
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Congratulations on not paying any attention to the context and completely missing what i was talking about.
    In the post, you quoted I was specifically talking about some sort of limited switching system that could act as a release valve for blizzard's inevitable bad balancing for the people who would want or feel the need to switch for balance reasons. There is no way this system would negatively affect people who pick a covenant for rp or aesthetic purposes.

    Further as a matter of general argument; Blizzard conducts live tuning of raids during the world first race. So clearly on some level, they feel it is appropriate to deploy development resources to a vanishingly small number of people who make up the high end of the high end. Which isn't even going into games such as starcraft that are balanced almost exclusively around the top end.

  11. #851
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    In the post, you quoted I was specifically talking about some sort of limited switching system that could act as a release valve for blizzard's inevitable bad balancing for the people who would want or feel the need to switch for balance reasons. There is no way this system would negatively affect people who pick a covenant for rp or aesthetic purposes.
    You mean like the one that's already planned? Covenants were never announced as completely unswitchable to begin with. Although i still disagree with your assertion, as the easier it is to switch, the more likely people are to expect you to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Further as a matter of general argument; Blizzard conducts live tuning of raids during the world first race. So clearly on some level, they feel it is appropriate to deploy development resources to a vanishingly small number of people who make up the high end of the high end. Which isn't even going into games such as starcraft that are balanced almost exclusively around the top end.
    Two problems with that: A) Tuning takes far less resources than you seem to think and B) those are highly public events that ultimately affect more than just the top end.

  12. #852
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You mean like the one that's already planned? Covenants were never announced as completely unswitchable to begin with. Although i still disagree with your assertion, as the easier it is to switch, the more likely people are to expect you to do so.
    I never said the system doesn't exist, I was positing how it might function and the benefits of that function.

    I do see the argument that people might possibly be expected to swap, but I can't imagine a serious situation where someone who doesn't want to pick for optimisation would face serious pressure to swap.

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Two problems with that: A) Tuning takes far less resources than you seem to think and B) those are highly public events that ultimately affect more than just the top end.
    Mythic raid tuning between pulls is going to affect more than just the top end? Even outside the race, it's only going to hit mythic players.

  13. #853
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I never said the system doesn't exist, I was positing how it might function and the benefits of that function.

    I do see the argument that people might possibly be expected to swap, but I can't imagine a serious situation where someone who doesn't want to pick for optimisation would face serious pressure to swap.


    Mythic raid tuning between pulls is going to affect more than just the top end? Even outside the race, it's only going to hit mythic players.
    You know your arguing with someone who prides themselves on their own ignorance right? It is amusing to read but your never going to budge him.

  14. #854
    I think people are pissing steam a tad too early.

    We don't even know, all things considered, what will be the optimal choice and how far off will be the second or third option.

    With soulbinds, I am willing to bet that there will be at least 2 optimal (as in really close to each other) covenants for every spec, simply because of all the possible combinations there. This is reasonable enough.

    Of course you will see people here go full Highlander mode - "there can be only one" and will be debating to death how that specific combo that is simming better within margin of error from the second best option is THE ONLY REAL choice, but in reality, aside from some super edge cases there will likely be several viable options on the table for everyone.

    And the said super edge cases will just get beaten back into their place, before the inevitable 9.1 flips everything around, alongside with some new system Blizz will duct tape to the game.

  15. #855
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I think people are pissing steam a tad too early.

    We don't even know, all things considered, what will be the optimal choice and how far off will be the second or third option.

    With soulbinds, I am willing to bet that there will be at least 2 optimal (as in really close to each other) covenants for every spec, simply because of all the possible combinations there. This is reasonable enough.

    Of course you will see people here go full Highlander mode - "there can be only one" and will be debating to death how that specific combo that is simming better within margin of error from the second best option is THE ONLY REAL choice, but in reality, aside from some super edge cases there will likely be several viable options on the table for everyone.

    And the said super edge cases will just get beaten back into their place, before the inevitable 9.1 flips everything around, alongside with some new system Blizz will duct tape to the game.
    I heard this tale before in bfa.

    If anything its to late to complain.

  16. #856
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    I heard this tale before in bfa.

    If anything its to late to complain.
    And what happened in BFA, pray tell? Skies rained fire and hordes of unfortunate souls were sacrificed on the bloody altar of the devs?

    It was the same shit you had in Legion, WoD, MoP, Cata and so on. On launch some specs were good, some specs were bad, then 8.1 came and reshuffled the shit around, then 8.2 and so on.

    Balance you had in 8.0 looked nothing like you have in 8.3 and so on. Mages were dogshit and everyone and their dog was Frost, because at least it was ok in some places, then suddenly 8.2 happened and fire went up HARD, while Shadow was the king spec. 8.3 - Shadow nerfed and suddenly Arms and BM rose good 10 positions up to become best physical DPS specs in raids, with bonus point of how that retard Preach was proclaiming the death of Hunters in Nyalotha raid a week before it launched, kekw.

    Some specs completely switched their essences and Azerite and so on (which is literally what will happen with Covenants, just wait and see).

    The only constant you had was Warlocks being in generally good place in raids and dog in M+.

    ---

    I play this game for 15 years now, it's the same shit every patch, every expansion.

    This whole steam pissing is so futile, it's almost laughable. Things change wildly all the time, your "optimal" covenant/spec/class/setup can literally be broken up in a matter of hotfix and whatever we will have in 9.0 and 9.3 will be so different, it will be like a whole new thing. I mean, I still remember how in Highmaul blizzard hotfixed Demo Warlocks to effectively do something like 20% more damage or some such, mid-raid progression for many guilds and then nerfbatted it by a factor of 30% in the end of expansion patch.

    Somehow I managed to live through all of this with my Warlock and lo and behold, it's somehow still playable and even good, despite every bloody expansion launch various retards proclaiming the DEATH of CLASS. I mean, we literally have said thread now in lock section.

    Same with the others. Bottom line - it will be fine, yes there will be optimal setup and it will change 500 times, because Blizzard will adjust/expand/change this shit as it goes.

    And nothing you can do will change that, because Blizzard is incapable of landing perfect balance from a get go, simply because the whole zoo is so huge, you inevitably will have an elephant or two popping up on launch stomping around, just to get beaten back into their pens in x.1 patch.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2020-05-11 at 11:26 PM.

  17. #857
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Blizzard is playing the long game.

    Instead of farming a few gear sets for one class, now you're going to level up 4 different characters of the same class if you want to play competitive in every game aspect(PvP/raids/M+/etc.)!
    And ~12 characters of the same class if you are unlucky and Blizzard fucked up class Covenant and its good for one spec and bad for another. Love it.

  18. #858
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    And what happened in BFA, pray tell? Skies rained fire and hordes of unfortunate souls were sacrificed on the bloody altar of the devs?

    It was the same shit you had in Legion, WoD, MoP, Cata and so on. On launch some specs were good, some specs were bad, then 8.1 came and reshuffled the shit around, then 8.2 and so on.

    Balance you had in 8.0 looked nothing like you have in 8.3 and so on. Mages were dogshit and everyone and their dog was Frost, because at least it was ok in some places, then suddenly 8.2 happened and fire went up HARD, while Shadow was the king spec. 8.3 - Shadow nerfed and suddenly Arms and BM rose good 10 positions up to become best physical DPS specs in raids, with bonus point of how that retard Preach was proclaiming the death of Hunters in Nyalotha raid a week before it launched, kekw.

    Some specs completely switched their essences and Azerite and so on (which is literally what will happen with Covenants, just wait and see).

    The only constant you had was Warlocks being in generally good place in raids and dog in M+.

    ---

    I play this game for 15 years now, it's the same shit every patch, every expansion.

    This whole steam pissing is so futile, it's almost laughable. Things change wildly all the time, your "optimal" covenant/spec/class/setup can literally be broken up in a matter of hotfix and whatever we will have in 9.0 and 9.3 will be so different, it will be like a whole new thing. I mean, I still remember how in Highmaul blizzard hotfixed Demo Warlocks to effectively do something like 20% more damage or some such, mid-raid progression for many guilds and then nerfbatted it by a factor of 30% in the end of expansion patch.

    Somehow I managed to live through all of this with my Warlock and lo and behold, it's somehow still playable and even good, despite every bloody expansion launch various retards proclaiming the DEATH of CLASS. I mean, we literally have said thread now in lock section.

    Same with the others. Bottom line - it will be fine, yes there will be optimal setup and it will change 500 times, because Blizzard will adjust/expand/change this shit as it goes.

    And nothing you can do will change that, because Blizzard is incapable of landing perfect balance from a get go, simply because the whole zoo is so huge, you inevitably will have an elephant or two popping up on launch stomping around, just to get beaten back into their pens in x.1 patch.
    No they tried making the azerite system to be a lot more like what covenants are now. During the last month of testing it became clear it was a utter train wreck and was replaced whole scale with a new more generic system that lead to BFA's long parade of terrible systems building up more and more busy work that will make it one of the most disliked expansions to date.

    Some people would rather address a problem early rather then embrace the fact its going to suck like you seem determined to do.

  19. #859
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    No they tried making the azerite system to be a lot more like what covenants are now. During the last month of testing it became clear it was a utter train wreck and was replaced whole scale with a new more generic system that lead to BFA's long parade of terrible systems building up more and more busy work that will make it one of the most disliked expansions to date.

    Some people would rather address a problem early rather then embrace the fact its going to suck like you seem determined to do.
    That probably depends on your perception of this system sucking. I don't think it will. I hope they make more changes like it, and maybe as a result some of the culture of the game will change because it is not a good experience for anyone I know who has come in as a new or returning player.

  20. #860
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    That probably depends on your perception of this system sucking. I don't think it will. I hope they make more changes like it, and maybe as a result some of the culture of the game will change because it is not a good experience for anyone I know who has come in as a new or returning player.
    Sacrificing balance so low skilled players can feel more like special snowflakes has been death in every game that has tried it from mmo to solitaire.

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