Shadowlands Covenants - Making the choice. Is it really as bad as people think?

[Saltysquidoon]

I've been in the raid scene before, and I'm very confident that I could jump right back in with no trouble and clear mythic raids. But I don't like how people in that space seem to feel like the game should revolve around how they play when they represent such a small part of the game's players

From a game design perspective; There's no reason not to design around the high end because generally, it doesn't negatively affect shitters at all. Generally, it's basically the skill floor v skill ceiling argument, the only time that's an issue is when you raise the skill floor so high shitter's can't use it (which is bad game design).

Relating that to covenants. If there was s cost attached to changing or one 'free' change per character per covenant, it literally doesn't affect shitters because they'll pick whatever strokes their rp boner and people who care have a built-in release valve when blizzard invariably stuffs up balancing.

EDIT; omg floor, floor

[Quro]

Have you considered playing pathfinder?

I find it weird how the people wanting drastic changes are the ones demanding others leave?

I have and I do. I'm not demanding that you leave, I'm just curious why you are playing a game with so many design choices that you seem to actively dislike. I mean, outside of arena championships, WoW is never going to be a pure test of "skill" that you seem to be looking for.

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From a game design perspective; There's no reason not to design around the high end because generally, it doesn't negatively affect shitters

Except it does. See WoD, where the entire expansion was designed around raiders.

[huth]

Except it does. See WoD, where the entire expansion was designed around raiders.

Just the word choice betrays the agenda, really. Hard to take somebody serious who calls 99% of the playerbase "shitters".

[Saltysquidoon]

Except it does. See WoD, where the entire expansion was designed around raiders.

Ah yes I remember the guild and I downing the garrison table, it took a whole expansion but we got there. Who could forget the Challenge mode dungeons where the raid was permanently split into 4 groups. I also look back fondly on ashran it was like an undending champions of the X boss in ToC but the AI was so much more developed. Then there was my personal favourite, the apexis raid that one took a while too but I got my mount.

Just the word choice betrays the agenda, really. Hard to take somebody serious who calls 99% of the playerbase "shitters".

If you're diamond in lol or masters in a blizzard game you're better then 97% of the player population. Turns out being good at something isn't a democratic process and simply because there are more bad players that don't make their opinion correct.

[Laughingjack]

That's not necessarily what I want. I'd simply prefer if the high end community would accept that the way they play the game is not who the design team should focus on. Especially if catering to them at all would compromise a new game system to just so that they don't go out of their way to circumvent it. Because every time the competitive-minded players try to get around a system, they wind up hating the game or the developers for it, based on a choice they made for themselves. I believe the game was more accepting and less strict when they didn't design for the high end very much.

I've been in the raid scene before, and I'm very confident that I could jump right back in with no trouble and clear mythic raids. But I don't like how people in that space seem to feel like the game should revolve around how they play when they represent such a small part of the game's players

It is more of them warning the design team... They are going to break the living hell out of covenants to the point content is going to become balanced around them. It isn't so much as balancing around the high level players as the realization that the high end players are going to decide what the balancing has to be.

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I have and I do. I'm not demanding that you leave, I'm just curious why you are playing a game with so many design choices that you seem to actively dislike. I mean, outside of arena championships, WoW is never going to be a pure test of "skill" that you seem to be looking for.

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Except it does. See WoD, where the entire expansion was designed around raiders.

Are you asking why I take issue with massive design shifts in a game I enjoyed for a decade? I mean its a question but most people consider it a self evident one.

[Quro]

Are you asking why I take issue with massive design shifts in a game I enjoyed for a decade? I mean its a question but most people consider it a self evident one.

No, I'm asking why you enjoyed it to begin with. According to what you said before, you'd prefer to remove any and all customization from the game and make it into a straight up action with no rpg elements. Considering that WoW was much heavier on those originally, it just seems strange that you'd like it at all.

[Laughingjack]

No, I'm asking why you enjoyed it to begin with. According to what you said before, you'd prefer to remove any and all customization from the game and make it into a straight up action with no rpg elements. Considering that WoW was much heavier on those originally, it just seems strange that you'd like it at all.

Perspective is a powerful thing. I actually recall very,very little customization in wow with talent trees though I mostly played classes that didn't allow it.

WoW was a lot less random then I think most people realize early on. Even trinkets had icd. I enjoy getting better at the game and learning fights. There is nothing that makes the experience more hollow then garbage like infinite stars and to a lesser extent everything born of the AP system.

Is WoW the 100% ideal game I would want? No, but the parts of it I enjoy I greatly enjoy and it annoys me that more and more grinds are being put in the way of what I enjoy about it.

[Quro]

WoW was a lot less random then I think most people realize early on.

I dislike all the randomness as well, however, the part I enjoy is the character building and the customization. Raiding is just the means to allow that, not the other way around.

[Woobels]

No, I'm asking why you enjoyed it to begin with. According to what you said before, you'd prefer to remove any and all customization from the game and make it into a straight up action with no rpg elements. Considering that WoW was much heavier on those originally, it just seems strange that you'd like it at all.

Refresh my memory but what rpg elements did WoW have back in the day that were both permanent decisions while also being this impactful on how your character plays? I'm drawing a blank.

[facefist]

And then you proceed to move the goalposts, presumably due to a lack of actual arguments.

Yes, because saying that I dont have arguments is a great argument on its own, right?

[Velerios]

Since i will play the ability that is the most fun to me and not the one that is best for anything, i'm quite happy about the new system giving us a choice. The only bad thing about it is that it only works for this expansion (except blizzard finally stop this shit and make abilities like them work over the xpack (maybe later with an easier way to switch them))

So nope, it isn't as bad as long as you don't are obsessed with: is this better by 0.1% for whatever, then i'm forced to take it!!!!; instead you gain all abilities to test with, just play the one you like and that's all folks. And if there are morons who requires them to join the raid, then you should rather find a group without morons.

Also: what people here are always forgetting: we know absolutely NOTHING about the new Soulbinds yet: Maybe ability X is better for PvP, but all soulbings are then better for raiding and mythic+; it seems that everyone is forgetting this.

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Refresh my memory but what rpg elements did WoW have back in the day that were both permanent decisions while also being this impactful on how your character plays? I'm drawing a blank.

Scryer and Aldor.

[Advent]

Refresh my memory but what rpg elements did WoW have back in the day that were both permanent decisions while also being this impactful on how your character plays? I'm drawing a blank.

It's actually never really happened before, but does that necessarily mean they shouldn't try it? Can we just let them do something without tearing it down immediately? We don't even know for certain how strong the abilities are going to be, people are just speculating and getting prematurely upset over something they haven't gotten the chance to properly test yet.

[Woobels]

Since i will play the ability that is the most fun to me and not the one that is best for anything, i'm quite happy about the new system giving us a choice. The only bad thing about it is that it only works for this expansion (except blizzard finally stop this shit and make abilities like them work over the xpack (maybe later with an easier way to switch them))

So nope, it isn't as bad as long as you don't are obsessed with: is this better by 0.1% for whatever, then i'm forced to take it!!!!; instead you gain all abilities to test with, just play the one you like and that's all folks. And if there are morons who requires them to join the raid, then you should rather find a group without morons.

Also: what people here are always forgetting: we know absolutely NOTHING about the new Soulbinds yet: Maybe ability X is better for PvP, but all soulbings are then better for raiding and mythic+; it seems that everyone is forgetting this.

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Scryer and Aldor.

From everything I've seen from the alpha, which I'm admittedly not in myself so I can't speak from hands on experience, the Scryer and Aldor decision isn't even remotely comparable whatsoever.

It's actually never really happened before, but does that necessarily mean they shouldn't try it? Can we just let them do something without tearing it down immediately? We don't even know for certain how strong the abilities are going to be, people are just speculating and getting prematurely upset over something they haven't gotten the chance to properly test yet.

Some form of (hefty) skepticism is healthy, I'm not necessarily comfortable with letting them do something and just hoping for the best, especially when they have a bad track record. I also just felt it was worth bringing it up because people keep going on about how WoW used to be some deep roleplaying games but it was always much more "arcade-y" than that. This is a pretty significant departure.

[Saltysquidoon]

Refresh my memory but what rpg elements did WoW have back in the day that were both permanent decisions while also being this impactful on how your character plays? I'm drawing a blank.

I literally cannot connect to my character now I don't have stack an arbitrary amount of hit to ensure I never miss bosses, defence so I don't get auto crit and spell haste and melee haste are one stat.

WoW is dead.

[huth]

Some form of (hefty) skepticism is healthy, I'm not necessarily comfortable with letting them do something and just hoping for the best, especially when they have a bad track record. I also just felt it was worth bringing it up because people keep going on about how WoW used to be some deep roleplaying games but it was always much more "arcade-y" than that. This is a pretty significant departure.

There is one that has been there from the start, and is still unchanged. Class selection.

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If you're diamond in lol or masters in a blizzard game you're better then 97% of the player population. Turns out being good at something isn't a democratic process and simply because there are more bad players that don't make their opinion correct.

Being good at something also doesn't magically give you insight into proper development and design of said thing. Nor does it make you more important from a business PoV. The 97% pay the bills, not the 3%.

[Woobels]

There is one that has been there from the start, and is still unchanged. Class selection.

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Being good at something also doesn't magically give you insight into proper development and design of said thing. Nor does it make you more important from a business PoV. The 97% pay the bills, not the 3%.

I guess that's fair but I meant for one specific character, but I'm sure you knew that.

[VinceVega]

There is one that has been there from the start, and is still unchanged. Class selection.

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Being good at something also doesn't magically give you insight into proper development and design of said thing. Nor does it make you more important from a business PoV. The 97% pay the bills, not the 3%.

Heavens no one disputes class selection as meaningfull choice. But no one says covenants destroy anything class overarching. This is a basic balance problem which will never be solved. And doesn't need to. Everyone can do something (except Shadowpriests).
The problem is class specific.

That stupid argument that classes are the same as the covenant abilities is so annoying and wrong. Because you completly throw out everything everyone put into his/her character up to that point and you can play more characters. But playing mroe than 3 characters is difficult as it is. If those abilities are balanced like corruption you need 4 characters per class. This just gets tedious at some point.

There are so many good arguments on both sides but that: "We allready have classes as a choice why don't you have a problem with that!" is the most horrible argument ever just to annoy the person you are talking to because you know damn well that this is something different. But hey. People in this threat on the "more choices" side don't even try to see the other side and rather insult them. Cobined with that weird numbers everyone seem to have. One says only 1% raids. You say only 3%. Which are numbers out of thin air. The last numbers we had are from WoD and these are a good deal bigger in favour of poeple who raid.

Also insinuating that EVERYONE else cares about the choice more than having those abilities as if you talk for the 99%! There are a good deal more players who do NOT play for thoses choices and like to play to their capabilities on a lower difficulty/not raid etc as people in this thread think or people who don't care at all.

This whole threat is just an echochamber for people who HATE raiders for whatever reason. As if blizz catered to them. They did not. Raiders and high end players get sticks thrown between their legs all the time. Be it MasterLoot, AoE changes, Grinding ressources and whatnot. The original reason for the discussion got completly overshadowed by people who try to proove that raiders are just assholes who don't bring anything for Blizz. Which Blizz aparantly did not see for 15 years...

[Saltysquidoon]

Being good at something also doesn't magically give you insight into proper development and design of said thing. Nor does it make you more important from a business PoV. The 97% pay the bills, not the 3%.

Paying the bills has nothing to do with anything because I was specifically speaking about design decisions take place in such a way as to not affect the majority of blizzard's valued playerbase. Hence my use for the example of the difference between skill floor and skill ceiling.

Being good at the game doesn't magically do anything that's correct, however, it's a pretty good indicator your understand the underlying mechanics and any flaws of those mechanics. This is demonstrably true in a game like wow that's predominantly math. Jeff Kaplan's EQ rants and Ion's history with EJ attest to this.

Also from a business PoV obviously the minority of the players can't be worth more than the majority yes but that's a simplistic and flippant analysis. A single skilled player can disproportionally bring more worth to your game than a host of blizzard's valued majority. Leaving aside the esports angle as it's largely (but not entirely) tangendental to WoW. We live in the age of the twitch streamer, someone like Sco generates more worth for the game on an individual level than a host of blizzard's valued majority.

[Eazy]

Blizzard is playing the long game.

Instead of farming a few gear sets for one class, now you're going to level up 4 different characters of the same class if you want to play competitive in every game aspect(PvP/raids/M+/etc.)!

[huth]

good at the game doesn't magically do anything that's correct, however, it's a pretty good indicator your understand the underlying mechanics and any flaws of those mechanics.

From the PoV of a player. Which does neither confer the necessary knowledge nor skills to do the same from the PoV of a developer and actually develop fixes for the issues, or determine whether fixing it is even worth the cost.

Paying the bills has nothing to do with anything because I was specifically speaking about design decisions take place in such a way as to not affect the majority of blizzard's valued playerbase. Hence my use for the example of the difference between skill floor and skill ceiling.

That still leaves it for you to show that your assertion has any actual truth to it. I'm rather doubtfull, since, if nothing else, it would mean a disproportionate allocation of development resources to a group that is only a small fraction of the playerbase.

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Heavens no one disputes class selection as meaningfull choice.

One says only 1% raids. You say only 3%. Which are numbers out of thin air. The last numbers we had are from WoD and these are a good deal bigger in favour of poeple who raid.

Congratulations on not paying any attention to the context and completely missing what i was talking about.

I never said anybody disputes classes as being meaningfull, nor did i say 3% raid. In fact, if you had paid any attention to what i was responding to, you'd have noticed the 3% are from a different game.