How they could change Group Finder and LFR

[TheRevenantHero]

Oh yeah it did.

You quite literally can't prove that. Especially since Blizzard has even said that LFR has brought MORE people to the game since it was introduced. Just because you hate the fact that other people can experience raids doesn't mean you're right.

[Ragedaug]

What's more, I had fun gearing my Alts via LFG Dungeon Zergs.

100% agree with you. I was doing dungeons constantly on alts of every class and role, and enjoyed it. Never once thought, "ugh, gotta log and do my dungeons". It was more of just logging on and deciding with class/role to play that evening, and queuing up.

Then it appeared a few loud people complained about it being too easy, then Blizzard decided to go back to Vanilla standards and make dungeon trash difficult, then give Boss' one shot mechanics, and you could expect some dungeons to take 1-2 hours to complete.

When they saw players were still enduring that (at least some of them), they decided to drastically cut Rep from dungeons, then when they saw players still queueing, they finally just removed any incentive to run them at level cap to make sure players weren't queuing for heroics.


--- to be honest, I don't mind the one-shot mechanics. I don't mind the difficult boss fights. Just let me zerg the trash. I'm not there to grind/farm trash. Then give me a way to feel I'm still progressing my character. Rep and/or emblem type currencies will keep my coming back. I'll do dungeons over world quests for Rep any day.

[Yriel]

Lots of LFR haters lately.

I guess they are return players but couldn't find a raid guild.

I think it's rather people whos raid died and who can't find replacements. They probably hope that without LFR the unwashed masses will apply to their dying guilds again like in the good old times.

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If we go back to Wrath, when LFG was introduced, I used to run countless dungeons per week... far more than I do now in M+. My main was raid geared, but my Alts geared up via 5 mans. Most of them Tanked or Healed for shorter queues and I'd simply farm Badges in 5 mans for my welfare gear. Again, some players dislike this approach, but let me tell you, it took me vastly longer to gear an Alt back then Via badge gear than it does today getting carried through keys by guildies while Armor stacking.

What's more, I had fun gearing my Alts via LFG Dungeon Zergs.

LFR has also suffered the same fate. Again, my main has always been raid geared, but in Cata/MoP, I would also gear Alts via LFR for their Welfare Tier gear. It was easy, it was fun, and I could just sit in Queue while doing other content. Late MoP, Blizzard introduced a Group finder for Premades which (IMO) was vastly superior to the one we have today. I remember I'd list myself for SoO, usually as a Healer, and wait for a leader to /W me. Today, you apply to multiple groups, wait to be declined, apply for more etc... nah, just not worth it for an Alt IMO.

Very good post. I agree 100%.

[Kaver]

But you can always go back. If something was added to the game and is seen as a mistake or bad for the overall health of the game. It can and should be removed. There is no, You Can't Go Back. Blizzard can do whatever Activision will let them do. Activision is why we are in this mess.

I don't agree.

Because you cannot remove the fact that players have 20 max level characters.

You cannot remove the fact that players have 300-500 mounts.

You cannot remove the fact that players got millions of gold.

Blizzard would have to delete things from the game in order to do that, and that would never happen.

They need a clean slate to make it special again.

[Alkizon]

Point where mess started.

Problem regarding ease/accessibility/freebies of some content.

What simple solution to this issue without cutting out main functionality:
1) entire search (even being conditionally automatic), at any stage, is controlled by players (you can see which of players and from which guild, if any, automatically joined, so can agree on certain organizational/role issues or/and just "party"-chat during the wait);
2) (in fact, as addition to first paragraph) "concrete" dungeon/raid (if it wasn't set by players, when they joined seach) is determined at the end of group's formation (which may have, together with additional objective/quest, certain bonus for the group as "compensation" for random factor, what conditionally looks as/could be repeating group quest, community is formed only in conditions of limitedness (Limitation brings creativity and thats whats missing most in this industry nowadays - which true not just for graphics), in this case, choice of available people, and its sufficient consistency = interdependence, otherwise there is no point in mutual assistance = staff turnover, high requirements);
3) it uses exclusively server's player base (in fact, this requirement is more for organization of a higher order - server organization, and it being reminded here just for overall system's picture);
4) no teleport (exept meeting stones), so getting there (in the process, or at the end of group's formation) is happening by group's own capabilities;
5) dungeon/raid's difficult for such groups is no different from one, for which groupes were formed by people on their own (without using seach system).
So, conditionally(<except cross-realm-stuff), there is no LFR/LFG fully-automatic&multi-complex systems (which have/produce a lot of flaws/problems), there is only universal "auto-pug" one (almost all functionality for which is already fully exists in the game) for any form of content (instances or open world). In essence, this search should be used not so much to form a group from scratch as to add a few missing members.

Also black lists and filters have some resembles with chat one. Decent discussion with PvP background.

That's all. All unnecessary and interfering system's elements are excluded as far as possible (which are multi-complexity, cross-realm, excessive accelerating uncontrolled automation), thus, it remains safe enough for systems that regulate social part and ones implement/control adequate work of both open world and sequence/hierarchy of content&progress.

Kumorii
"we need to stop afk in cities"
"let's afk outside a dungeon"

Seems legit.

Technically, "where're you now" doesn't affect group's formation (this is sound especially stupid if dungeon/raid is initially undefined). In this regard, you will begin to have a claim on ratio of "formation time+getting there with a group"vs"time to go through this dungeon/raid", this is fair claim, which rests on correct design of such dungeons/raids (average time to pass through it at least even if with minimal hindrance by internal factors). And we smoothly and accurately return to discussion of correct dungeons/raids' design (if even not touching their complexity, but volume of their filling and organization of passage process *laughing looking at M+ and all related them systems*).

[Kumorii]

"we need to stop afk in cities"
"let's afk outside a dungeon"

Seems legit.

[Niwes]

Lfr should be made into a 10 raid instead. That way fights wouldn't take so long and it would discourage slacking as everyone's input would be required to succeed.

While somene would say it would increase queue times, I think it might not. You'd only need two healers for one and I think tanks might be more inclined to queue if the general environment in lfr would be better.

this one. /10c

[Temp name]

this one. /10c

Fuck yeah, let's increase the demand for tanks by over 200%, when it's already the role that has the least supply. Sounds absolutely brilliant!

And no, 200% more tanks aren't going to magically queue up because you want it. Not happening.

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And when you say Activision, you actually mean Vivendi?
Or are you somehow saying that features implemented (LFR, Blizzard shop etc) several years before the ATVI split are also somehow Activision's fault? Please explain in that case.

People want to blame someone other than Blizzard because they can't accept that Blizzard also prioritizes money, and has for a long time.

[Kumorii]

Technically, "where you're now" doesn't affect group's formation (this is sound especially stupid if dungeon is initially undefined). In this regard, you will begin to have a claim on ratio of "formation time+getting there with a group"vs"time to go through this dungeon", this is fair claim, which rests on correct design of such dungeons (average time to pass through it at least even if with minimal hindrance by internal factors). And we smoothly and accurately return to discussion of correct dungeons' design (if even not touching their complexity, but volume of their filling and organization of passage process *laughing looking at M+ and all related them systems*).

What exactly are you saying? Lots of words and phrases and links to your own posts but I'm having a hard time grasping what your argument is and how it relates to what I said. Only tangible hint of argument I see is when you say "formation time + getting there with a group" vs "time to through this dungeon".
Atm, getting to any dungeons is a non-factor basically because you get there within a minute or 2 from almost anywhere and you have summons.

Are you against it being a non-factor or for? If against, then you either have to make travelling inconvenient and cumbersome or reduce the length of dungeons significantly. I fail to see how any of these are a good solution to a non-problem. If you are for then I don't see where you AFK looking for a group matters.

You probably answer this but I'm not really thrilled to sift through multiple links to your own posts with links of themselves to even more posts to try and figure out what you are arguing for.

[Alkizon]

What exactly are you saying? Lots of words and phrases and links to your own posts but I'm having a hard time grasping what your argument is and how it relates to what I said. Only tangible hint of argument I see is when you say "formation time + getting there with a group" vs "time to through this dungeon".
Atm, getting to any dungeons is a non-factor basically because you get there within a minute or 2 from almost anywhere and you have summons.

Are you against it being a non-factor or for? If against, then you either have to make travelling inconvenient and cumbersome or reduce the length of dungeons significantly. I fail to see how any of these are a good solution to a non-problem. If you are for then I don't see where you AFK looking for a group matters.

You probably answer this but I'm not really thrilled to sift through multiple links to your own posts with links of themselves to even more posts to try and figure out what you are arguing for.

You don’t have to sit under dungeon. You can get there later. The size and passage time of dungeon must have certain characteristics in connection with time spent before the start.

Is this better?

[Niwes]

Fuck yeah, let's increase the demand for tanks by over 200%, when it's already the role that has the least supply. Sounds absolutely brilliant!

And no, 200% more tanks aren't going to magically queue up because you want it. Not happening.

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People want to blame someone other than Blizzard because they can't accept that Blizzard also prioritizes money, and has for a long time.

oh, thats right. thats a problem.

[Kumorii]

You don’t have to sit under dungeon. You can get there later. The size and passage time of dungeon must have certain characteristics in connection with time spent before the start.

Is this better?

As I thought, now the question is...how is that relevant to what I said? Which basically points out the flaw in that apparently fixing dungeons would be determined by where you are stand AFK looking for a group. It only shifts which place seems lively and which place does not. It doesn't not solve the problem it claimed to fix, nor has it even been established as a problem to begin with.

Cutting down 2 minutes at most from travelling doesn't factor in when it comes to a dungeons run time. Forming groups does, but that is heavily dependant on when you look for groups, what groups you are looking for and how picky you are.

[Alkizon]

As I thought, now the question is...how is that relevant to what I said? Which basically points out the flaw in that apparently fixing dungeons would be determined by where you are stand AFK looking for a group. It only shifts which place seems lively and which place does not. It doesn't not solve the problem it claimed to fix, nor has it even been established as a problem to begin with.

Cutting down 2 minutes at most from travelling doesn't factor in when it comes to a dungeons run time. Forming groups does, but that is heavily dependant on when you look for groups, what groups you are looking for and how picky you are.

If you're talking about OP's proposal, then I don't advocate, that his decision is "right"(since he offers crutches, not solutions ...which need to happen more globally, lead to more global changes). In this particular case (your wording), I talked mostly about system example described above (1st part of message) by me. With proper organization in general, it becomes absolutely irrelevant if you're afk or not, where you're and if seach happened "conditionally automatic". Requirements and process in this case for everyone will ultimately be exactly the same, which means fair and consistent

[Mirishka]

LFR caused far more people quit than it actualy bring into the game.

I'll take "Talking out of my ass" for $500, Alex.

LFR isn't going anywhere, and Blizz sure as shit isn't going to look at terrible topics full of terrible suggestions (like this one) as a path to shape it in the future.

[rrayy]

You seem pretty mad, do you get mad often when people generally suggest improvements to things in your daily life?

Nothing that has been suggested in this thread is an improvement. All you and your camp are doing is trying to remove things you don't like despite the fact you don't use them.

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Because I am strongly affected by the implications. We had this discussion 10 years ago, when the tool was introduced, the main problems have not changed and I think we can stop wasting time to discuss things that were clarified a decade ago.

You are not affected in any way because you don't use it. Stop the dishonesty.

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Blizzard isn't going to remove either. Why would you want to make it a pain in the ass to use either?

Because that is how he gets "removed". He wants to to be a big enough pain in the ass that NOBODY does it. The trth is that this is nothing more than a thinly veiled "remove LFR/LFD" thread.

[Nobleshield]

I think first we need to actually figure out what the issues are with them. REAL issues not "casuals don't deserve gear" type of elitist and entitled horseshit reasons for being against LFR.

The way I see it the major issue with LFG is that it kills the sense of community. We've all heard or seen firsthand selfish, toxic groups that outright say they don't give a shit about the others in their dungeon group and have an itchy trigger finger to boot someone for the slightest reason: Being new to the dungeon, not knowing the optimal route as though it was M+, doing what they feel is "low DPS" regardless of whether it's enough for the dungeon, or sometimes just to be dicks. That's the biggest issue. Dungeons with randoms encourages selfish behavior because you have no reason to care about those people, they may as well be NPCs. That's why I feel the "best" solution is to limit endgame dungeons for the current expansion (so Heroic and above) to not be available in LFG. Everything else would be: Leveling dungeons in prior expansions and Normal dungeons. The idea is that for those dungeons there's less of a pool of people so you want to allow people to use them for their intended purposes, but the dungeons at the end are where you should be making connections to your peers and where your reputation needs to come into play. If you're a selfish or elitist prick who is unpleasant in dungeons then you need to be punished for it, not able to do it with impunity because you can always queue up and get a different group who doesn't know. Also I'd try to guarantee that you get paired with people from your own server whenever possible. They have said this is the case but I've so rarely seen it I'm not sure if it's correct, and I've queued for dungeons at all times over the years.

LFR is trickier because of where it sits. Everyone "knows" it's faceroll easy and you can ignore mechanics even though that hasn't actually been the case for years now (it's much more forgiving, of course, but you often can't completely ignore mechanics) and this just creates its own problems because people feel you don't have to try and are quick to accuse if things go south because hey you just failed at content that's "so easy a trained monkey could do it" so it has to be someone's fault and not that everyone wasn't trying, right? For me the bigger issue is that it, again, encourages little to no communication (maybe on certain fights that might NEED it but otherwise nothing) and there's no sense of accomplishment. I feel that if raid difficulties were done correctly you wouldn't need LFR because you would have an approachable regular mode that could be done cross realm and the players would come up with resources to organize it. I have very fond memories of using a site called OpenRaid during the end of MOP when Flex raiding was a thing and you could find a raid, or virtually anything else, at all times of the day seven days a week so it was very easy to find a group doing something you wanted and actually be social; I recall even when I didn't need it doing Flex SOO weekly with a small friends & family guild on another server simply because they were pleasant to be around and it was enjoyable. We had voice comms and communication, unlike LFR, but the content was very approachable. So I feel with something like that coming back (and I will maintain that, despite Blizzard saying they just renamed difficulties from WOD onward, Normal of today is a good chunk harder than Flex was during SOO) it would remove the need for LFR. What's the main appeal of LFR? You can just queue and go, without needing to commit to a schedule right? Well without it and with a Flex type mode once again you get something similar but it's more organized (which is a good thing) but still approachable enough that you don't feel like you need to commit to a raid schedule or join a raiding guild to do it. I suppose the only potential concern here is that if it was mostly organized via an external site people would have to know about that (it would be nice if Blizzard developed an official site for that though, it would basically just be a web-based calendar for cross-realm activities).

[Oxna]

Is it possible to queue lfr in a premade raid/group atm? Dps queues are long

[arkanon]

this one. /10c

You realise that would more than double the dps wait time though?

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Is it possible to queue lfr in a premade raid/group atm? Dps queues are long

Never tried it, dont know why you wouldnt just have a crack at normal if you had a premade group, but i think you can.

[Jujudrood]

The only changes I would support are ancillary to Group Finder (both manual and auto) and LFR, which are:
- Increase dungeon size to a 6th for Normal/Heroic to ease queue times allowing another DPS
--- It can either be baseline or enabled should queue times get to x minutes
- Add a 2 tier badge system back and put them in dungeons and raids
--- Let their turn in be for a handful of gear slots (wrist/belt/boots/trinket, like wrath) as well as cosmetics, mounts, toys, similar to TW badges but related to the 'current xpac' whatever that is (those rewards can then become TW rewards once that xpac's life is over)

Adding a badge system that's farmable in dungeons and raids will encourage players to participate, and adding a 6th slot to LFD would help ease the queues.
The badges granted in Normal/Heroic dungeons and LFR are the 'lower' badge and the ones in M+ and Normal+ raids are the 'higher badge' (the valor, if you will).
Neither of these really have to do with Group Finder or LFR directly, but would make them more valuable in terms of number of participants and usage.

I don't think requiring you to be near the instance for Group Finder is a good way to go; people will queue and go about their daily play.
It's reasonable to expect that and that not all 5 people will be immediately ready in 5 sec of accepting the invite.

I wouldn't take anything away from LFR either; that would removes its purpose entirely, which is to get people to see the raid, because there would no longer be a reward.
It would be the same effect as taking the reward away from anything; it would be seen as "why bother?".

[Velerios]

LFR: Wasn't trying to come off as an elitist or anything, was just trying to think of a middle ground for players that are for and against it. Likewise, I found in my experience, that I'm less inclined to run it because the groups are either filled with people that don't try to make an effort to learn the mechanics, AFK during the encounters, or grief the rest of the group; making it take a lot more time than a normal or heroic version of the raid/raid encounter to clear. Instead of gear they could add other incentives like transmog, pets, mounts, etc. IIRC, one of the reasons why LFR was introduced so that people with limited time could still see the raids and story content, but I feel like the long queue times, alongwith the low quality groups you end up getting, really end up undermining this philosophy.

That's the issue: LFR was made TOO EASY. Increase the difficulty and the player gets better. And NO, having a high difficulty on the endboss isn't enough for it, the whole raid needs to be harder, not too hard, but harder by an significant amount than it is now. Throne of Thunder was harder than anything LFR had on all bosses. And player got better. Yes, it was a wipefest on Durumu and Lei Shen, but after the tactics got explained, people got better and finished the instance (this and a few stacks ;-) )

So yes, LFR is in a bad spot right now, but it's still better than anything else. I want LFR to be good, i also want it to be harder (and personally i would have nothing against an heroic LFR that is equal to normal mode, except skipping the dungeon finder with it's elitistjerks)

Note: No need for hostility, just wanted to create some friendly discussion on how people feel about these two systems and how they would change them, if they felt they needed any.

You started an LFR-Thread.