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  1. #1

    What do you think about retri changes so far in shadowlands

    Yo, wake of ashes baseline, holy power is back and more! Do you think retri will be in good spot ?

  2. #2
    Holy Power left?
    "Auto-correct is my worst enema."

  3. #3
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarthas View Post
    holy power is back
    Be cooler if it wasn't.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  4. #4
    I wish they would bring back the seal/judgement system, just make it better. Building up combo points is just like a weird rogue, I never thought it felt like a Paladin.

  5. #5
    I just want exorcism back.
    "I will say, I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act."

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Be cooler if it wasn't.
    Believe I've said this before (or meant to), but if Retribution did NOT have Holy Power, it would play like Enhancement Shamans. If you want to know what that is like play a 110 Trial Enhancement Shaman right now. To get the full feel, make macros for every one of your Shaman skills using Retribution art.

    See for yourself why players like myself that played Retribution PRE-Holy Power don't want to go back and why Holy Power improved the playing experience by taking it away from what it was. (Note - Devs struggled for years to balance how their skills worked and how they used mana, HP fixed this issue).

    I say this firmly, Holy Power did not ruin Retribution. Instead the eradication of their baseline skills and/or turning them into 'optional' talents did.
    - Execution Sentence change to an 'optional talent' = BAD
    - Hammer of Wrath change to an 'optional talent' = BAD
    - Exorcism removed as a skill entirely = BAD
    - In introduction of Inquisition and it's various incarnations = BAD
    - Divine Purpose change to an 'optional talent' = BAD

    These changes fundamentally changed the rotation experience and made it focused on the accumulation of Holy Power. When we had the above skills AND Holy Power in early testing, it was good. When they gutted the spec, the rotation went bad.

    If you want a close approximation to how Retribution's rotation felt like in early testing of Holy Power before they gutted the skills, play a 110 Ret right now and use Azerite skills with Legion legendaries to give yourself multiple skills at the same time, and you're pretty much there.

    I've done this too and it feels F'n fantastic! It feels exactly like it was supposed to before they gutted the spec.

  7. #7
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathpony View Post
    See for yourself why players like myself that played Retribution PRE-Holy Power don't want to go back
    Ret has been my main since TBC started, I'm fully aware of what I'm asking for thank you very much.

    And no, it wouldn't play like Enh does right now, it would play like Enh does in the Shadowlands beta after the removal of the Maelstrom resource, and judging by the feedback I've seen so far, they seem pretty fuckin happy with it.

    This is just another example of Blizz taking something Rets have been asking for for years and then doing it to some other spec instead of us.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2020-05-04 at 09:14 PM.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  8. #8
    Did they discuss anything regarding giving us a bit more mobility?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisuke42 View Post
    Did they discuss anything regarding giving us a bit more mobility?
    Unfortunately no...
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Unfortunately no...
    I remember few years ago (not sure WoD or MoP).
    We had a talent that each time you use judgment you get a 2 sec of %40 speed boost. Man I liked that so much.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisuke42 View Post
    I remember few years ago (not sure WoD or MoP).
    We had a talent that each time you use judgment you get a 2 sec of %40 speed boost. Man I liked that so much.
    Yeah that was nice, but Judgment also had a 6s cooldown back then, wouldn't be that great now... I always preferred Pursuit of Justice (passive movement speed) personally.

    Also Emancipate... If they just gave us back PoJ and Emancipate all our mobility problems would be remedied.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  12. #12
    i want old divine storm animation...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by naeblis495 View Post
    i want old divine storm animation...
    So many old animations for so many classes need to come back as glyphs... We have this whole glyph system that is specifically and soely in the game for cosmetic alteration of spell visuals and it's criminally underused..

    Old Divine Storm could be a glyph.

    Exorcism could be a glyph.

    Old Judgment could be a glyph.

    Final Verdict animation from WoD could be a glyph.

    What do we have instead? 6 fucking glpyhs that alter the appearance of the stupid fucking horse that we never asked for.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    So many old animations for so many classes need to come back as glyphs... We have this whole glyph system that is specifically and soely in the game for cosmetic alteration of spell visuals and it's criminally underused..

    Old Divine Storm could be a glyph.

    Exorcism could be a glyph.

    Old Judgment could be a glyph.

    Final Verdict animation from WoD could be a glyph.

    What do we have instead? 6 fucking glpyhs that alter the appearance of the stupid fucking horse that we never asked for.
    Can't agree more.

  15. #15
    I wish they could bring back, despite the massive pruning.

    Long Arm of the Law. I miss my mini sprint so bad.
    The Judgement Cleave with +% crit if target is at 100% hitpoint. Thats a lot to ask, but my god was it satisfying.
    Exorcism (Now its Blade of Wrath basically...), but Exorcism have bonus to Undead and Demons (that could apply against Deathknight, Demon Hunter, the same kind of counter a priest could have with Shackle Undead or the Hunter's sleep for beasts (druids). I feel like this anti-demon/undead theme is gone.
    Divine Protection or Shield of Vengeance

  16. #16
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    Ret's looking alright. Few things I would like is to remove horse and add Long Arm of the Lawl, revert BoJ to Exorcism and make BoJ a glyph, Empowered Seals.

    I would sign a lifetime contract to stay subbed to the game for my remaining years if they promised to bring back and keep Empowered Seals. Even if nothing else changes.
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  17. #17
    I'd like seals back - even if it's just cleave vs st seal.
    I'd also like Exorcism over BoW back, dunno why they took such an iconic Paladin spell completely out of the game for... that thing.

    Other than that... I'd love if they didn't smack every kewl set bonus, azerite or legendary effect onto the talent tree - can't wait for the spec to play like absolute ass when Seraphim + Inquisition + Zeal is the best build.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathpony View Post
    Believe I've said this before (or meant to), but if Retribution did NOT have Holy Power, it would play like Enhancement Shamans. If you want to know what that is like play a 110 Trial Enhancement Shaman right now. To get the full feel, make macros for every one of your Shaman skills using Retribution art.

    See for yourself why players like myself that played Retribution PRE-Holy Power don't want to go back and why Holy Power improved the playing experience by taking it away from what it was. (Note - Devs struggled for years to balance how their skills worked and how they used mana, HP fixed this issue).

    I say this firmly, Holy Power did not ruin Retribution. Instead the eradication of their baseline skills and/or turning them into 'optional' talents did.
    - Execution Sentence change to an 'optional talent' = BAD
    - Hammer of Wrath change to an 'optional talent' = BAD
    - Exorcism removed as a skill entirely = BAD
    - In introduction of Inquisition and it's various incarnations = BAD
    - Divine Purpose change to an 'optional talent' = BAD

    These changes fundamentally changed the rotation experience and made it focused on the accumulation of Holy Power. When we had the above skills AND Holy Power in early testing, it was good. When they gutted the spec, the rotation went bad.

    If you want a close approximation to how Retribution's rotation felt like in early testing of Holy Power before they gutted the skills, play a 110 Ret right now and use Azerite skills with Legion legendaries to give yourself multiple skills at the same time, and you're pretty much there.

    I've done this too and it feels F'n fantastic! It feels exactly like it was supposed to before they gutted the spec.
    I'm glad you speak for the community. There's a lot of us who went to Classic to have the seal system back. It was improved upon and in a decent place in BC. Wrath it was kind of a "you just swing for extra stuff" but that still feels better than Holy Power to me. The biggest issue Blizzard has had with Ret in BC/WotLK was making them not all burst damage. Outside of wings, your DPS would drop off for awhile. Holy Power, and by a lesser extent Inquisition "fixed" the down period by giving a hard hitting attack after building up a resource or spending it on a maintenance buff that increased your damage in the meantime (that could also be used with Wings).

    The seal system eventually got moved into Mastery in a sense for awhile. Swings did Holy damage based on your Mastery. They could have come up with something else, but the "ultimate" system to them is builder->spender. Even the fun Eclipse system on Boomkins with do Wrath during your Day bonus and Starfall with your Night bonus was a better builder->spender system. They just kind of fucked up by making it so you want to get to Night bonus as fast as possible and stay there as long as you could. Completely invalidated the Day portion of it. Having drawbacks is fine, but having 1/2 your time in a sequence that is a complete drawback is bad.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    Wrath it was kind of a "you just swing for extra stuff"
    Hey now! It was in Wrath were seals were the least "just more damage" mechanic. Command was the cleave seal, Righteousness was the sustained damage and strong Judgement, Corruption was the dot seal, Light and Wisdom would restore hp and mana. They sound dull so far but besides their own innate effects there were talents/glyphs that would modify them to fulfill certain roles. Command would return more mana when judging and made it a really strong seal for leveling, specially before Replenishment. Light would increase healing done when active. Vengeance increased expertise. Wrath was the one expac where they managed to make seals more than just more damage with added customization! Second place would be WoD with Empowered Seals imo. Your overall point I agree with though, much better than Holy Power.
    "I have the most loyal fanboys. Did you ever see that? Where I could stand by Thoradin's Wall and massacre my own people and I wouldn't lose any fanboys. It's like incredible." - Sylvanas Windrunner

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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    I'm glad you speak for the community. There's a lot of us who went to Classic to have the seal system back. It was improved upon and in a decent place in BC. Wrath it was kind of a "you just swing for extra stuff" but that still feels better than Holy Power to me.
    Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to accuse him of speaking for the community and then in the same sentence you do the same thing?

    While I'm not a fan of Holy Power at all, Seals sucked. They were boring and binary and removed for very good reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    Hey now! It was in Wrath were seals were the least "just more damage" mechanic. Command was the cleave seal, Righteousness was the sustained damage and strong Judgement, Corruption was the dot seal, Light and Wisdom would restore hp and mana. They sound dull so far but besides their own innate effects there were talents/glyphs that would modify them to fulfill certain roles. Command would return more mana when judging and made it a really strong seal for leveling, specially before Replenishment. Light would increase healing done when active. Vengeance increased expertise. Wrath was the one expac where they managed to make seals more than just more damage with added customization! Second place would be WoD with Empowered Seals imo. Your overall point I agree with though, much better than Holy Power.
    I had several top 10 world Ret parses in WotLK. After the Blood/Martyr change, we pretty much used Corruption/Vengeance exclusively because switching to the AOE seal wasn't even a damage increase in most situations.

    The other seals? I sure as hell didn't touch them as a Ret. Good design would just bake their passive effects into other dynamically activated skills, and not create a bunch of superfluous hotkeys to do nothing but passive binary effects.

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