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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    Hey now! It was in Wrath were seals were the least "just more damage" mechanic. Command was the cleave seal, Righteousness was the sustained damage and strong Judgement, Corruption was the dot seal, Light and Wisdom would restore hp and mana. They sound dull so far but besides their own innate effects there were talents/glyphs that would modify them to fulfill certain roles. Command would return more mana when judging and made it a really strong seal for leveling, specially before Replenishment. Light would increase healing done when active. Vengeance increased expertise. Wrath was the one expac where they managed to make seals more than just more damage with added customization! Second place would be WoD with Empowered Seals imo. Your overall point I agree with though, much better than Holy Power.
    Seals became kind of white noise in Wrath is all. The seal/judgment system went away completely and Seals became "set it and forget it." Which was kind of nice, but that's why they removed them completely. They just became redundant in Cataclysm when you dealt Holy damage with your weapon based on your mastery.

    The WoD iteration was so unbelievably clunky. Swapping between 3 seals for a marginal damage boost wasn't that great (4th if you wanted some utility or full usage). I did it because it was the closest attempt to bringing back Seal/Judge system since BC, but they killed it off because it was just so unreliable in practice. It was a talent they just couldn't balance without it being underwhelming or overpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to accuse him of speaking for the community and then in the same sentence you do the same thing?

    While I'm not a fan of Holy Power at all, Seals sucked. They were boring and binary and removed for very good reason.
    I didn't speak for the whole community. I specifically said there are "a lot" of us. Meaning the people playing Ret and Prot in Classic are doing it because we actually like the seal/judge system. I read your statement as "everyone who played with the old system hated it" to be fair. I may have been a little to quick to pin that on you, but Paladins are one of the most played classes even in Classic where they "suck." The Seal/Judge system wasn't great and BC was a good spot for it in my opinion. Wrath made Ret a force to be reckoned with though.

    I just think if you want to play a rogue, go play a rogue. Don't make the rogue combo point system the default. I liked Seal Twisting in BC. It was the most fun I have ever had as ret when I would get a great line up of Seal of Blood swing and Command Judgement for a huge spike in damage. Then on fights with Demons, using exorcism and hitting the top of the meters for a bit.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravingmad View Post
    I wish they could bring back, despite the massive pruning.

    Long Arm of the Law. I miss my mini sprint so bad.
    The Judgement Cleave with +% crit if target is at 100% hitpoint. Thats a lot to ask, but my god was it satisfying.
    Exorcism (Now its Blade of Wrath basically...), but Exorcism have bonus to Undead and Demons (that could apply against Deathknight, Demon Hunter, the same kind of counter a priest could have with Shackle Undead or the Hunter's sleep for beasts (druids). I feel like this anti-demon/undead theme is gone.
    Divine Protection or Shield of Vengeance
    That's absolutely right. Came back after 7 years out of WoW, since MoP i believe, and it doesn't feel like paladin anymore. I remember on Cataclysm that was the best time to play a paladin if I recall right, just slightly above WotLK. However, I know they don't like it because Paladin was "OP" at that time, only against players that didn't knew how to play. But Words of Glory as proc to not consume holy power and heal was great. long arm of the law to reach that OP classes that have great mobility was another great thing, they made this Divine Steed shit but its cooldown is just ridiculously high.

    I'm struggling to find another class to play with, since I've been paladin for my whole life basically, but I don't feel so compelled to role another alt, I had priest and druid before, but my main was always a pally, now thinking about changing my main because Paladin isn't fun anymore only makes me want to leave WoW again, and that'll probably be what I'll do once my game time expires.

    Also it would be VERY NICE to have Blessing of Might and Wisdom as buffs, I really loved buffing my mates, gave sense of utility, that's now lost.

    Oh, I liked Blade of Justice, I would maintain that skill, however not on the expense of not having Exorcism...
    Last edited by Tribes11; 2020-05-07 at 05:01 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    The WoD iteration was so unbelievably clunky. Swapping between 3 seals for a marginal damage boost wasn't that great (4th if you wanted some utility or full usage). I did it because it was the closest attempt to bringing back Seal/Judge system since BC, but they killed it off because it was just so unreliable in practice. It was a talent they just couldn't balance without it being underwhelming or overpowered.
    Oh for PvE? You would swap between two for pve dps and the other two were utility, and yeah it wasn't the most efficient but you had two other talents choice anyway. For PvP though, Empowered Seals was super fun. A little sprint and a hot were great, and the haste buff super useful. The ability to pick which effect you needed at the moment through changing seals was absolute peak paladin flavor. I really would like it to return, dragonslayers have two other seals to pick so I don't see why it not being the most efficient talent in PvE should be a deterrent.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    Oh for PvE? You would swap between two for pve dps and the other two were utility, and yeah it wasn't the most efficient but you had two other talents choice anyway. For PvP though, Empowered Seals was super fun. A little sprint and a hot were great, and the haste buff super useful. The ability to pick which effect you needed at the moment through changing seals was absolute peak paladin flavor. I really would like it to return, dragonslayers have two other seals to pick so I don't see why it not being the most efficient talent in PvE should be a deterrent.
    Well, that was before playing optimally versus playing the easier spec only had a slight margin. IIRC to play completely optimally with it, you had to maintain 3 out of the 4 buffs. It wasn't difficult on fights that are straight tank and spank, but it got to be nearly impossible on fights with a lot of movement and WoD was filled with fights like that. It was nice to see them attempt to bring back Seals, but it just wasn't the same from the Seal/Judgement system in Classic/BC.

  5. #25
    I'm not a fan. A 10 + button single target rotation is not something I want. They also made WoG a single target heal. I think its functionality on live is how most of ret utility should behave. Simpler to use utility means more time to focus on damaging things. Blade of Justice should get a range increase to 30-40 yards. Especially if spec mobility is slated to stay the same. Please replace the Fist of Justice talent with something else. I suggest a reverse version of Monk Ring of Peace that locks people in the circle instead of keeping them out. I'd ask about a cosmetic Librams as well but I know it won't happen.

  6. #26
    Blessing of seasons seems like pretty good raid utility, since it's now stronger (autumn is anyway) and group-only, unlike the previous aura version, and you can now control the effect more easily. So, bringing multiple paladins could be more justifiable now. I agree with some of the previous posters that our utility should be simpler to use and certainly involve less single target spells. Having to make a bunch of macros in order to target allies with various single-target spells has always been terrible design for a melee dps. Blessing of Sacrifice is very powerful in many ways, but I really don't want it back, especially with Word of Glory, Lay on Hands or Selfless Healer already being single-target utility. I'm also not really that happy with many of the new talents - for years our talents have felt like they are necessary in order to make Holy Power work as a mechanic in the first place. We are should not be getting our basic functionality from talents.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2020-05-08 at 02:33 PM.

  7. #27
    I know I'll likely be in the minority, but some of the changes look like more "busywork". I am getting older, and while many disliked Ret's "boring" gameplay, I found it a calm spot in a chaotic ocean of everything else that goes on in even the "simplest" boss encounters these days.

    Wake of Ashes and Hammer of Wrath baseline are great; Consecration is a spell I've never liked simply because as soon as I drop it, LOL the tank moves the enemy out of it.

    Some things I miss:
    - Divine Hammer. I loved this talent! Cleave that moved with you.
    - Mass Judgment.
    - Long Arm of the Law. A useful tool to get you to that next add, the group, or safe spot.

    I really dislike the 100 talent row; for me, Crusade is the only ability that "feels" great. I am not a fan of maintenance buffs for any class.

    I always felt like Ret could keep Holy Power, but has a passive ability where every X Holy Power spent, you build a "Holy Rage" bar (like a Limit Break?), that automatically (or maybe controlled?) unleashes a short buff like Execution Sentence or gain the effects that Seraphim or Inquisition provide. Or if you're in a group/raid, you don't get the benefit, but it helps the nearest X number of allies, etc?

    I'd also prefer them to change the Level 15 row to simple Seals, with the Seals having the effects of the originals plus a bonus when Judgment is used.

    Zeal becomes Seal of Command (cleave). Judgment gets applied to the 3 debuffed targets.
    Righteous Verdict becomes Seal of Vengeance (single target). Judgment increases Holy damage to the target for 6? seconds.
    Execution Sentence becomes Seal of Light (for solo play?). Judgment grants you a mini-bubble for, say, 2 seconds.

    I'm no expert, just spitballing. I love paladin and Ret, but having a ton of generators to "build up" seems like filler.
    Last edited by Gloriandus; 2020-05-11 at 12:58 PM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriandus View Post
    I am getting older, and while many disliked Ret's "boring" gameplay, I found it a calm spot in a chaotic ocean of everything else that goes on in even the "simplest" boss encounters these days.
    Yup. I loved the gameplay in early WotLK as it always felt easy to drop the odd utility spell or heal without messing up my rotation. I mean, it was fun to have Divine Storm's CD reset all the time in ICC, but early WotLK was better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriandus View Post
    I am not a fan of maintenance buffs for any class.
    I guess I'd keep them for rogues, simply because they've more or less always had them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriandus View Post
    I always felt like Ret could keep Holy Power, but has a passive ability where every X Holy Power spent, you build a "Holy Rage" bar (like a Limit Break?), that automatically (or maybe controlled?) unleashes a short buff like Execution Sentence or gain the effects that Seraphim or Inquisition provide. Or if you're in a group/raid, you don't get the benefit, but it helps the nearest X number of allies, etc?
    I miss the WotLK-era blue rage bar too .
    Still not tired of winning.

  9. #29
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    Been wanting HoPo gone since Cataclysm already.

    Shamans get rid of Maelstrom and they are all happy about it.

    And Ret is still stuck with it - and now Holy and Protection have to suffer with us again. I want people to remember that Blizzard removed it from Holy and Protection in Legion because they were 'not good' and 'clunky'.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by HitRefresh View Post
    I wish they would bring back the seal/judgement system, just make it better. Building up combo points is just like a weird rogue, I never thought it felt like a Paladin.
    I'd like to integrate the seal system into the HoPo system somehow. Get the best of both worlds. Neither system are very interesting on their own.

    Here's my idea so far...

    1) Templar's Verdict: gone!
    2) Crusader Strike: now has multiple versions that give you a 8sec Seal when pressed.
    - eg) Inquisitor Strike creates Inquisitor Seal, which gives haste; Crusader Seal boosts Holy dmg; Holy Seal sometimes gives healing and HoPo; Templar Seal increases crit; etc.
    3) Judgement: new single-target spender.
    4) Spenders: when cast, it will extend you *active* seal duration to 60sec and allow another stack to be applied (3 stack max).
    5) Wake of Ashes: CD is somewhere between 15-30 sec. Each unique Seal you have at the time multiplies its damage by 2. Also, 1 stack of each Seal is consumed.

    So now we have a more complex rotation where were are juggling HoPo as well as Seals.

  11. #31

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    I didn't speak for the whole community. I specifically said there are "a lot" of us. Meaning the people playing Ret and Prot in Classic are doing it because we actually like the seal/judge system. I read your statement as "everyone who played with the old system hated it" to be fair. I may have been a little to quick to pin that on you,
    Hi there. I'm the poster you originally responded to. I am not poster Wrecktangle, who this quote is directed at.

    The person you're responding to with the above comments was not me nor do I know this person, yet you are clearly addressing this person as if it is me. That was a different poster entirely calling out your behavior towards me - which you might want to note.

    So let me clarify my previous remarks for anyone having trouble with what I was saying. Like yourself, Coldfrostzero, it was not my intent to convey a broad representation for others but instead simply those few "like me" who hold the same anti-remove-holy power opinion, beta tested holy power originally, and have played paladin since before holy power was implemented into the game.

    If you don't meet all 3 of those qualifications, I'm not talking about you and I don't 'represent' you.
    Hint: It's probably not a lot of people, so it's ironic you think I was trying to speak for many (or even you).
    My intended inference was quite the opposite.

    I would also like to point out that there were suggestions in my post for people to try out and experience that take nearly zero effort to do.
    One of these would give people a very similar experience to my point of how ret paladin would feel if the many skills they had turned into electives were baseline again.
    The other would would give them a similar experience to how ret paladin would feel in terms of play if holy power was removed and reverted back to a mana-like system.

    Again, I encourage people to broaden their view and opinion on this subject by trying such experiences out to see how they feel from a player experience perspective, not a theoretical one or debating resource name technicalities. Anyone who is game to do so and have an opinion afterwards, I'm interested in your opinion and discussing it further. Anyone not interested in doing so, we simply have nothing to discuss.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathpony View Post
    Hi there. I'm the poster you originally responded to. I am not poster Wrecktangle, who this quote is directed at.

    The person you're responding to with the above comments was not me nor do I know this person, yet you are clearly addressing this person as if it is me. That was a different poster entirely calling out your behavior towards me - which you might want to note.

    So let me clarify my previous remarks for anyone having trouble with what I was saying. Like yourself, Coldfrostzero, it was not my intent to convey a broad representation for others but instead simply those few "like me" who hold the same anti-remove-holy power opinion, beta tested holy power originally, and have played paladin since before holy power was implemented into the game.

    If you don't meet all 3 of those qualifications, I'm not talking about you and I don't 'represent' you.
    Hint: It's probably not a lot of people, so it's ironic you think I was trying to speak for many (or even you).
    My intended inference was quite the opposite.

    I would also like to point out that there were suggestions in my post for people to try out and experience that take nearly zero effort to do.
    One of these would give people a very similar experience to my point of how ret paladin would feel if the many skills they had turned into electives were baseline again.
    The other would would give them a similar experience to how ret paladin would feel in terms of play if holy power was removed and reverted back to a mana-like system.

    Again, I encourage people to broaden their view and opinion on this subject by trying such experiences out to see how they feel from a player experience perspective, not a theoretical one or debating resource name technicalities. Anyone who is game to do so and have an opinion afterwards, I'm interested in your opinion and discussing it further. Anyone not interested in doing so, we simply have nothing to discuss.
    Sometimes, I don't notice who I am replying to as it is at work and I've just woken up and yeah. Still stands.

    I played a Paladin when Seal of Fury was a thing, at least to level 20. Then eventually when Horde got Paladins, that became my main. Seals and mana make a lot more sense and they should/could play with how that works. They have gotten rid of mana as a resource unless you're a healer. Now everything is a warrior or rogue when it comes to resource basically. Builder and spender. There is no real resource management or challenge. Spam builders, hit spender. Spam builders, hit spender. The only "skill" comes in RNG talents that add additional builders on whatever their trigger is.

    Holy Power, and all builder/spenders, are there for pure balance purposes. It makes all the classes play exactly the same. It's killed innovation on how to make classes feel unique. Putting Auras back in the game is great for example, but they are largely a set it and forget it thing. It's what they wanted to get away from in Cataclysm. I love Auras and ever since first putting a point into Devo Aura on a Paladin in WC3, they've felt like they should be there (would love if the animation kept playing like it does in WC3), but it's taking a baby step in a game that largely needs to look to it's roots for a breath of fresh air. It's not unsurprising a lot of Classic servers are locked and full. Servers that are much larger than they were in Vanilla. Paladins, even in their "bad" state are one of the more played classes. Hell, I tank raids on my Paladin even. I tanked Nefarian for a few attempts when the MT got insta-gibbed and if it wasn't for a missed fear ward, it'd have been a kill.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriandus View Post
    I know I'll likely be in the minority, but some of the changes look like more "busywork". I am getting older, and while many disliked Ret's "boring" gameplay, I found it a calm spot in a chaotic ocean of everything else that goes on in even the "simplest" boss encounters these days.

    Wake of Ashes and Hammer of Wrath baseline are great; Consecration is a spell I've never liked simply because as soon as I drop it, LOL the tank moves the enemy out of it.

    Some things I miss:
    - Divine Hammer. I loved this talent! Cleave that moved with you.
    - Mass Judgment.
    - Long Arm of the Law. A useful tool to get you to that next add, the group, or safe spot.

    I really dislike the 100 talent row; for me, Crusade is the only ability that "feels" great. I am not a fan of maintenance buffs for any class.

    I always felt like Ret could keep Holy Power, but has a passive ability where every X Holy Power spent, you build a "Holy Rage" bar (like a Limit Break?), that automatically (or maybe controlled?) unleashes a short buff like Execution Sentence or gain the effects that Seraphim or Inquisition provide. Or if you're in a group/raid, you don't get the benefit, but it helps the nearest X number of allies, etc?

    I'd also prefer them to change the Level 15 row to simple Seals, with the Seals having the effects of the originals plus a bonus when Judgment is used.

    Zeal becomes Seal of Command (cleave). Judgment gets applied to the 3 debuffed targets.
    Righteous Verdict becomes Seal of Vengeance (single target). Judgment increases Holy damage to the target for 6? seconds.
    Execution Sentence becomes Seal of Light (for solo play?). Judgment grants you a mini-bubble for, say, 2 seconds.

    I'm no expert, just spitballing. I love paladin and Ret, but having a ton of generators to "build up" seems like filler.
    Older person here also, and while I understand how you feel, I'm the complete opposite. I miss the seal/judge/blessing style of classic/bc retribution paladins. Don't get me wrong - it was a shitty spec to play number-wise, but there was something about it that I really enjoyed.
    I'd certainly change some aspects of that system, such as making blessings have a default 30 minute duration or cut some of the cooldown values a bit (I'm certainly looking right at you, Lay on Hands), but that "busy" version of Ret is something that I really enjoyed.

    I really like your idea of a "holy rage" bar. I'm not sure how well it would be received by some, but the idea of limit breaks would be fun imo.

    I'm not expert either, obviously, and this is me spitballing as well.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Yeah that was nice, but Judgment also had a 6s cooldown back then, wouldn't be that great now... I always preferred Pursuit of Justice (passive movement speed) personally.

    Also Emancipate... If they just gave us back PoJ and Emancipate all our mobility problems would be remedied.
    Well, in Cata we had PoJ, LAotL, and Emancipate. But I'm not greedy - I'd settle for the MoP/WoD setup where we had three mobility choices for our L15 talent row - a Pony-like (I forget it's name, popular with Holy), PoJ, and LAotL, though I didn't like the way PoJ at that time varied its speed buff with the amount of Holy Power you had.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    So many old animations for so many classes need to come back as glyphs... We have this whole glyph system that is specifically and soely in the game for cosmetic alteration of spell visuals and it's criminally underused..

    Old Divine Storm could be a glyph.

    Exorcism could be a glyph.

    Old Judgment could be a glyph.

    Final Verdict animation from WoD could be a glyph.

    What do we have instead? 6 fucking glpyhs that alter the appearance of the stupid fucking horse that we never asked for.
    Old HoJ, especially for Human Females. Best animation ever.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribes11 View Post
    Oh, I liked Blade of Justice, I would maintain that skill, however not on the expense of not having Exorcism...
    Exorcism wasn't well liked back then, because it scaled badly (it's damage was based on Spellpower, and thus AR, rather than on weapon damage). As all damage was fixed and made consistent with Legion, that's not really a problem any more. Besides, it could've been fixed by changing it to weapon damage at any time.

    I want Exorcism back for two reasons - firstly, I don't like the Blade's animation. Secondly, Blade has only a 10 yard range, and I liked being a kind of 'semi-ranged melee' because it made up for our lowish mobility and made us different from everyone else. However, I suppose they 'needed' to take that away so they could give that niche to DH's (just as locks lost demonform so DH's could have it, and so on).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramiell View Post
    I'm not a fan. A 10 + button single target rotation is not something I want. They also made WoG a single target heal. I think its functionality on live is how most of ret utility should behave. Simpler to use utility means more time to focus on damaging things. Blade of Justice should get a range increase to 30-40 yards. Especially if spec mobility is slated to stay the same. Please replace the Fist of Justice talent with something else. I suggest a reverse version of Monk Ring of Peace that locks people in the circle instead of keeping them out. I'd ask about a cosmetic Librams as well but I know it won't happen.
    The current FoJ talent blows, and I'd like the older one back, even without the extra range - just the flat CD reduction.

  15. #35
    How about still having those awful judgement and HoW animations...lol
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  16. #36
    The WoD TV animation for "Final Verdict" was awesome; a giant hammer twirling down to smash the enemy. I'd like to see that as the default for TV.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkwlYvS4wqk
    Last edited by Gloriandus; 2020-05-23 at 06:03 PM.

  17. #37
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    I'd like to see Crusader Strike not have a cooldown, or have enough stuff to to have very little to no downtime. Some might complain that we'd have to min/max to never miss out on anything but I just...don't care. Any time I sit there auto-attacking with nothing else to do, it feels bad, regardless of spec.
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  18. #38
    I wounder why they didnt make ret more ranged based? I always thought its fun to throw judgment how or exorcism in pve or pvp. Even thematic it kidna works shooting holy damage at enemys. also the mobilty and holypower system would work better this way.

    maybe as a trade of aoe dmg is dealt in melee range?

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriandus View Post
    The WoD TV animation for "Final Verdict" was awesome; a giant hammer twirling down to smash the enemy. I'd like to see that as the default for TV.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkwlYvS4wqk
    Honestly, I don't like the slam animation the player character does, but the hammer from behind is beyond badass. WE NEED THAT BACK.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by scapeg View Post
    I wounder why they didnt make ret more ranged based? I always thought its fun to throw judgment how or exorcism in pve or pvp. Even thematic it kidna works shooting holy damage at enemys. also the mobilty and holypower system would work better this way.

    maybe as a trade of aoe dmg is dealt in melee range?
    Ret was more ranged based. It was their identity for a long while. They decided that they didn't like Ret having ranged tools compared to other melee so they brought them more in line. Speaking personally I don't care much for the change, the range was always a neat part of the kit I liked.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExiHext View Post
    Honestly, I don't like the slam animation the player character does, but the hammer from behind is beyond badass. WE NEED THAT BACK.
    What animation would make more sense? I mean if you think about it logically and thematically, you're conjuring a hammer from above the enemy. A slam animation quite literally makes the most sense.

    I miss Final Verdict. It's one of my favorite things of Ret that we ever had. I loved the alternating FV/DS playstyle and the animations (although I'd love the old animation for DS brought back and maybe made a little more high-res).

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