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  1. #241
    Pandaren Monk meathead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    The guy is clearly off his meds. I attempted to show him how 90% of what he said was incorrect with literal proof showing him wrong and he just said the links said he was right. There’s nothing serious to say to this individual
    Again your links and what your trying to say are different lol. Yup 11 million subs and MLG before cata started said hey f it lets drop wow after all these years for now reason. Lol at you! But but MLG could not run cata patch... But what others dropped wow in wrath from the completive pvp sence...more then MLG... Yeah a few did making your point nothing but crap. Blizz scrapped twos in wrath and you say they're better then Tbc twos beacusey more specs in pvp Lol. More specs on pvp does not equal balance matter of fact it usually means worse balance a they can't make all specs great for both pvp and pve without balance issues see Wrath dks and pallys. Enjoy yourself sweet cake's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    You're going off on a tangent here. People who say Wrath is the best say that because it was their favourite expansion. The fact that sub numbers stopped growing by Wrath does NOT mean that Wrath was the game's downfall. Favourite =/= most successful.

    Again, seriously, go look up how market saturation works. Stop repeating the same old shit and just learn how market saturation works, otherwise you're just refusing to learn and wasting our time.

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    That's not even how it works, either. If sub numbers remain constant, it does not mean an expansion is flopping. It means for every player who quits, one replaces them. So, why did TBC and Vanilla have a ratio of more players coming than going? Because, the market was less tapped. The market was more saturated with potential customers, and the competing MMOs were less appetizing.

    Again, this ALL points back to market saturation, the subject you seem remarkably uninterested in Googling about, instead preferring to repeat the same arguments that you yourself would have answered if you'd stopped hyperventilating, and actually read what people are trying to drill into your head.

    It's really fucking simple. There's only a FINITE number of potential customers in the market. When the market who are interested in WoW are already playing it, then the potential to grow further is lessened, because those who have an interest in the game are already playing it, and those without an interest are not. You combine this with more compelling COMPETING products, tapping the same market, and that also contributes to people leaving. That doesn't mean the expansion flopped. It doesn't mean Wrath was WoW's downfall. It just means there were less available market left to tap, and more compelling products from other companies also stealing some of the thunder.

    Your username really does check out.
    User name lol wow shocking people like you and the other guy are still doing the same old fishing routine. Why don't you go back an read where I said blizz should and will make wrath server. But that does not mean wrath was wows prime again it's where the game started it's down fall. But wrath babies don't like o here that.. human racial was balanced... dks after s5 balanced cause high rated arena numbers dropped after nerfs. Bad players playing faceroll.classes had nothing to do with rating sand numbers right? So you don't think the loss of players means anything?so why does live have half the sub numbers as back in the day?game play can't be the reason right?just the market... Lol. Enjoy.
    Last edited by meathead; 2020-05-26 at 03:52 AM.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    pretty much the only wotlk fans are the ppl that started playing in wotlk, wich happens to be a pretty large part of the playerbase.
    I like LK just fine, and ive been playing since the vanilla beta.

    Its a natural progression of game systems from Vanilla > TBC > LK.

    Cata is where that fails, where things got MASSIVE overhauls, massive changes, cut, etc.

    There's a clear delineation between the "Classic" design mentality and what came after in Cata.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Nak88 View Post
    Fortunately.

    I don't understand why people hate LFD that much. Spamming on a chat "need a tank", "need a tank" for 1h is not cool, my time is very precious.
    I guess by LK and beyond it was a necessary evil.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Nak88 View Post
    Fortunately.

    I don't understand why people hate LFD that much. Spamming on a chat "need a tank", "need a tank" for 1h is not cool, my time is very precious.
    If it had been restricted to your realm, it would have been a lot less of an issue. Im not one of the “muh commoonitee” grognards, but even i will say it led to a decline in the quality of the experience because people knew they could be shitlords without repercussions.

    Thats why it got so much hate. If it had been restricted to your server, or had operated more like the current group finder (where you can list a group, let people auto-join or not, and put a basic description on it - still restricted to your server - it would have been 100% fine, IMO. People had an issue with it because it was what kicked off the spiral into the game basically being completely soloable without ever having to be sociable or accountable. And i can understand that, even if i dont believe it was AS detrimental as that crowd usually does. Itmwas still detrimental, and it DID start the “slippery slope” into what we have now which is basically a solo game with other players subbing in for AI companions sometimes, for 90% of the base.

  5. #245
    Pandaren Monk meathead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    You don't know how many wrath brought. You only know how many played. There might have been 9m players who quit before WotLK and those who played during wotLK might be mostly new players
    Yes we do know how many people played... The numbers are easy to see.

    No 9 million player's never quit Tbc and no wrath did not bring in 9 million new players.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    Yes we do know how many people played... The numbers are easy to see.

    No 9 million player's never quit Tbc and no wrath did not bring in 9 million new players.
    But how do you know? We know that by MOP there were 100m unique users... thats what? 8 years into wow?

  7. #247
    people overthinking every shitty thing that is going on.
    WOTLK is fun. Why not play wotlk if its fun? I have been playing Tetris since I first got it in the 80s. TOTAL MADNESS!

  8. #248
    Pandaren Monk meathead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    The guy is clearly off his meds. I attempted to show him how 90% of what he said was incorrect with literal proof showing him wrong and he just said the links said he was right. There’s nothing serious to say to this individual
    https://www.engadget.com/2009-09-16-...th-of-2v2.html.

    That is what scrapping 2v2 means an Yes it happened in wrath not Tbc. More proof of how bad wraths pvp was outside of the last seasons 3v3.

    More proof of what I'm saying is true.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    But how do you know? We know that by MOP there were 100m unique users... thats what? 8 years into wow?
    This guy will not stop with just saying things he 'knows' as fact even if you have hard evidence proving him wrong. You could literally have a recording of mike morhaime saying "Wotlk was the biggest success in any MMO's history and brought in the most players" and this dude will still disagree with him/you and tell you how that recording proves him right.

    I did the precisely this a couple pages back and he still thinks he is right lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    https://www.engadget.com/2009-09-16-...th-of-2v2.html.

    That is what scrapping 2v2 means an Yes it happened in wrath not Tbc. More proof of how bad wraths pvp was outside of the last seasons 3v3.

    More proof of what I'm saying is true.
    Dude no one said glad titles got removed in tbc wtf are you on about

  10. #250
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    If it had been restricted to your realm, it would have been a lot less of an issue. Im not one of the “muh commoonitee” grognards, but even i will say it led to a decline in the quality of the experience because people knew they could be shitlords without repercussions.

    Thats why it got so much hate. If it had been restricted to your server, or had operated more like the current group finder (where you can list a group, let people auto-join or not, and put a basic description on it - still restricted to your server - it would have been 100% fine, IMO. People had an issue with it because it was what kicked off the spiral into the game basically being completely soloable without ever having to be sociable or accountable. And i can understand that, even if i dont believe it was AS detrimental as that crowd usually does. Itmwas still detrimental, and it DID start the “slippery slope” into what we have now which is basically a solo game with other players subbing in for AI companions sometimes, for 90% of the base.
    More than server community, LFG undermined guilds. How did you avoid spamming "LF1M Need Tank"? You joined a guild and got most of your runs in with them. LFG made that obsolete; why join a guild if you can login, hit a button and get a group?

    Even as it was it might have been OK but for the introduction of daily heroic quests. Those quests meant that you were incentivized to run heroics every day in 3.3... which meant you wanted to find a heroic group every day. Which meant that you wanted to find a group easily and quickly... which meant you were heavily pushed to use LFG since that was the quickest way to get bodies.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    More than server community, LFG undermined guilds. How did you avoid spamming "LF1M Need Tank"? You joined a guild and got most of your runs in with them. LFG made that obsolete; why join a guild if you can login, hit a button and get a group?

    Even as it was it might have been OK but for the introduction of daily heroic quests. Those quests meant that you were incentivized to run heroics every day in 3.3... which meant you wanted to find a heroic group every day. Which meant that you wanted to find a group easily and quickly... which meant you were heavily pushed to use LFG since that was the quickest way to get bodies.
    For wotlk, I do not believe this was an issue whatsoever. When the LFG tool was implemented, most guilds were either in ToC or ICC of some kind 25/10 normal/heroic. This meant, outside of the 'daily' heroic it was almost impossible to find a group, even IF you were in a guild. I remember having alts in wotlk and having it be near impossible to find groups for heroics pre group finder because of this issue.

    There are tons of reasons why it was needed in wotlk and not earlier. In tbc there were people ALL over the place in terms of progression because of how attunements worked. There were people doing heroics for all of tbc, some doing kara, some doing ssc/tk, some doing hyjal bt etc etc etc. With wotlk, even though I loved it, it started off the gameplay of 'let everyone be an end level raider with ease'. So heroics got obsolete FAST then Nax got obsolete FAST then ulduar got obsolete FAST etc etc.

    So the opening up of LFG in wotlk was LOVED at for good reason, it was a good feature to be added to the game.... for THAT time period.

    The issue with the group finder later on is that...it didn't go away when heroics were relevant. So once the new expansion hit, EVERYONE did lfg, EVERYONE stopped looking for groups to stick with, EVERYONE could just get relevant gear by queing with randos.

    Long story short (IMO) LFG was a god send for the time period of wotlk when it was released, it just became a problem later on.

  12. #252
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    People insisting it would be pointless to do a relaunch of the expansion during which WoW held it's lifetime absolute peak in subscribers are out of their damn minds.

    For as much as people gripe about things such as LFD on forums (and projecting their experiences of later expansions with it back onto wrath, LFD didn't get put in until 3.3, by the time of ICC being there), things didn't seriously starts to go downhill until 4.0. It didn't get expanded to include raids until 4.3 either.
    Last edited by zealo; 2020-05-27 at 08:07 PM.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    People insisting it would be pointless to do a relaunch of the expansion during which WoW held it's lifetime absolute peak in subscribers are out of their damn minds.

    For as much as people gripe about things such as LFD on forums (and projecting their experiences of later expansions with it back onto wrath, LFD didn't get put in until 3.3, by the time of ICC being there), things didn't seriously starts to go downhill until 4.0. It didn't get expanded to include raids until 4.3 either.
    Yeah that’s what happens when you live in an echo chamber for too long. Any and all rational thought gets pushed aside for extreme personal bias and rage.

  14. #254
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    For wotlk, I do not believe this was an issue whatsoever. When the LFG tool was implemented, most guilds were either in ToC or ICC of some kind 25/10 normal/heroic. This meant, outside of the 'daily' heroic it was almost impossible to find a group, even IF you were in a guild. I remember having alts in wotlk and having it be near impossible to find groups for heroics pre group finder because of this issue.

    There are tons of reasons why it was needed in wotlk and not earlier. In tbc there were people ALL over the place in terms of progression because of how attunements worked. There were people doing heroics for all of tbc, some doing kara, some doing ssc/tk, some doing hyjal bt etc etc etc. With wotlk, even though I loved it, it started off the gameplay of 'let everyone be an end level raider with ease'. So heroics got obsolete FAST then Nax got obsolete FAST then ulduar got obsolete FAST etc etc.

    So the opening up of LFG in wotlk was LOVED at for good reason, it was a good feature to be added to the game.... for THAT time period.

    The issue with the group finder later on is that...it didn't go away when heroics were relevant. So once the new expansion hit, EVERYONE did lfg, EVERYONE stopped looking for groups to stick with, EVERYONE could just get relevant gear by queing with randos.

    Long story short (IMO) LFG was a god send for the time period of wotlk when it was released, it just became a problem later on.
    The problem started in Wrath; you can't ignore that. It was a feature that was designed without thought of its impact as new content was released. It's not that it lacked positive aspects, it's that the negative aspects weren't considered and ancillary features like daily heroic quests were also added that made it much more effective to use LFG than to ask in chat.

  15. #255
    I am Murloc! Mister K's Avatar
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    At this point it's pretty fair to assume the holy trinity, ie Classic, TBC and WotLK.
    -K

  16. #256
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    The problem started in Wrath; you can't ignore that. It was a feature that was designed without thought of its impact as new content was released. It's not that it lacked positive aspects, it's that the negative aspects weren't considered and ancillary features like daily heroic quests were also added that made it much more effective to use LFG than to ask in chat.
    Nobody gives a damn about it's effects on the game by being there from the start of future expansions within the context of whether doing a classic version of wotlk or not is a good idea.

    That isn't a concern for a Wotlk Classic, they won't force everyone on such servers onto a Cataclysm Classic after 2 years.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    The problem started in Wrath; you can't ignore that. It was a feature that was designed without thought of its impact as new content was released. It's not that it lacked positive aspects, it's that the negative aspects weren't considered and ancillary features like daily heroic quests were also added that made it much more effective to use LFG than to ask in chat.
    That’s... literally exactly what I just said but ok lol. I was saying the lfg tool for wrath and in the time period that it was released was a good thing.

    Just in case someone is going to call wrath shit just because it had this feature that was needed.

  18. #258
    Pandaren Monk meathead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    But how do you know? We know that by MOP there were 100m unique users... thats what? 8 years into wow?
    What?100 million users?just Google sub Numbers and you can see a ball park figure,easy to do.
    Sorry to hurt your special feelings about wrath but the fact is it never brought in 9 million player's.nor did Tbc lose 9 million player's.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    What?100 million users?just Google sub Numbers and you can see a ball park figure,easy to do.
    Sorry to hurt your special feelings about wrath but the fact is it never brought in 9 million player's.nor did Tbc lose 9 million player's.
    WoW reached 100m unique accounts in 2014. 10 years since launch. That means even if we say that 60% of those accounts were second accs and so on we have 40m players who played wow in 10 years. Which meant that many joined and many left. Unless blizzard releases the numbers it might be that every month up until Cata there was a 100k new players every month joining and 90k leaving, hence the growth subs.
    Do you understand that subs don't tell you how many players stayed playing?

  20. #260
    Pandaren Monk meathead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    This guy will not stop with just saying things he 'knows' as fact even if you have hard evidence proving him wrong. You could literally have a recording of mike morhaime saying "Wotlk was the biggest success in any MMO's history and brought in the most players" and this dude will still disagree with him/you and tell you how that recording proves him right.

    I did the precisely this a couple pages back and he still thinks he is right lol

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    Dude no one said glad titles got removed in tbc wtf are you on about
    You are fishing or your just playing slap ass because that's what people like you do.

    You yourself in this very thread said 2v2 in wrath was better then 2v2 in Tbc. You also said 2s in Tbc was more scrapped then twos were in wrath.... LOL. You fail!

    I gave you and the rest a link for when blizz scrapped 2s in wrath proving my point and showing how bad wraths pvp was and you talk smack lol.

    Again why would blizz scrap twos in wrath?they were broken an inbalnced do to dks and pallys an you say no. How can you say other wise? Why drop twos in wrath if blizz thought they were so good?why not drop them in Tbc?

    Sad thing is if your the high rated elite pvper you claim to be you already know this.

    The links you have said nothing more then MLG dropped wow at the end of wrath a plan that was in the works most of wrath. Your link also said more then just MLG dropped wow in wrath...


    Your sitting here doing what your claim I'm doing,not admitting to what the link s say.
    Stop with the most successful mmo X-Pac wrath crap a I already said wrath had the most sub numbers. But again that does not mean growth nor does it mean best or balanced.

    Keep on spinning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    WoW reached 100m unique accounts in 2014. 10 years since launch. That means even if we say that 60% of those accounts were second accs and so on we have 40m players who played wow in 10 years. Which meant that many joined and many left. Unless blizzard releases the numbers it might be that every month up until Cata there was a 100k new players every month joining and 90k leaving, hence the growth subs.
    Do you understand that subs don't tell you how many players stayed playing?
    Why are you trying to use some unique account numbers to push your agenda?you think Tbc was bleeding players?LOL! How many new players joined classic or Tbc? Unigue account s for classic or Tbc?does that not count?

    Use the info we got....
    Again I said blizz should and will make a wrath server but let's be real wrath was the start of the downfall not peak of wow inboth pvp and pve
    Last edited by meathead; 2020-05-28 at 05:32 PM.

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