How to tell when a Mythic Tank is a Baddie

[Thzz]

FULL DISCLOSURE: TOTAL NOOB QUESTION. HELLO MY NAME IS THZZ I AM A MYTHICS NOOB. RESPOND WITH: NICE TO MEET YOU THZZ.

Recently started running mythics. Disc priest (yeah they suck ballz but its what I like and what I am, and not gonna roll another healer just to be leet).

I didnt have the patience to work my way up, and since I am AH junkie I have more gold that I will ever spend Iso bought H Ny and 15+ runs and got geared up. I am 465+ with alot of BIS stuff. I know how to play my class. what I didnt know were the mechanics. So am running 6s-9s as I learn and play around with healing style, builds, gear options etc. Having a blast. Once I know the fights I am going to work up to the highest keys I can with disc.

Sometimes runs go horribly wrong.

I never know if its me noving up keys too fast, or I changed something I shouldnt have with gear/talent/essense/trait combos or a suck as tank, or both.

I dont know want to know so I can flame the tank (people who do that and complain about long queues wating for tanks ar dumb), I want to know so I can get better and fix the right stuff

Any ideas how to quickly tell what is going wrong when a mythic goes haywire?

[Thzz]

OK thx for response. yes for sure I always start heroics and actually watch the fights mechanics b4 going into mythics but usually jump to 5s or 6s if I get the fights and since I have the gear.

for sure tanking is hardest learn curve I respect all them (new and experienced). I am not asking so I can assess blame, I am asking because I want to be able to fix runs when they go haywire. Sometimes its me not healing correctly / enough or mechanics. Sometimes its tank being new,...

How do you diagnose so you can fix, vs wipe wipe.. people quit ?

[Schattenlied]

which mobs need to die first because they won't move, etc.

It's really sad that this is the tank's job... Knowing which mobs need to die first is something one would think the DPS should know on their own.

[Belloc]

As a tank, you have the double responsibility of learning all boss abilities that have positional requirements and tank-focused mechanics. You should read mythic+ guides for every dungeon that you're actively playing.

Additionally, certain Mythic+ Affixes will affect you more than the rest of your group. Sanguine, skittish, grievous, raging... these are things that you will personally have to deal with every time they're up and will require you to take certain actions depending on which tank class you're playing. Other affixes may also challenge you, specifically, and there are certain affixes that any one can deal with, but make more sense for tanks to deal with (paladin tanks can often solo most of the explosive orbs when that affix is active, for example, and I suspect that other tanks may have similar tools appropriate for taking them out).

In all honesty, learning Mythic+ tanking is best done by having someone walk you through it. If you have the gold for it, start looking for someone to teach you. Just advertise in trade chat or on community pages/discord and when someone bites, check their raider.io score. If they're 15+ across the board, they'll know what they're doing enough to convey that information to you. Having them be a tank isn't necessarily required, but a large part of tanking Mythic+ is knowing when to use your cooldowns, so they have to be able to help you with that or else there's no point paying them.

Don't want to pay? That's cool, just read mythic+ guides. You should be able to find them for every dungeon and they should also give you some information and basic strategies for dealing with the various affixes. Beyond that, it's just practice.

[Miyagie]

It's really sad that this is the tank's job... Knowing which mobs need to die first is something one would think the DPS should know on their own.

Tanks are the punching bags if anything goes bad in M+ since Legion.
Last week i helped a guild m8 in a 4+ for fun and i got flamed by the 2 dmg dealer for 15 min. after the dungeon.
They had a 2k+ Raiting on their mains and i dared to walked a easy way so they dont pull all the time but they pulled 10+ mobs nonstop.
Ofc we didnt wiped one time, got a 3+ in the end and i did more dmg as the 3 dmg dealer together.
Also i got a Item and they acted like its their loot and demanded to give it to one of them.

[Belloc]

It's really sad that this is the tank's job... Knowing which mobs need to die first is something one would think the DPS should know on their own.

That would sure be nice, but it's a role that has traditionally been reserved for the tank. The tank chooses which enemies he's going to build threat on (people like to pretend that threat is braindead in WoW, but it's not at all uncommon for mobs to go running wild and not get immediately picked back up) and determines the general flow of the dungeon. Personally, I think tanking and leading go hand-in-hand.

[Thzz]

I get all the above about tanks (Ive never tanked and major props for peep who take the time to do it successfully).

But not really what I was asking. Looking at my thread title, its bad. It should have been

How to figure out what went wrong when a Mythic goes haywire?

[ONCHEhap]

That would sure be nice, but it's a role that has traditionally been reserved for the tank. The tank chooses which enemies he's going to build threat on (people like to pretend that threat is braindead in WoW, but it's not at all uncommon for mobs to go running wild and not get immediately picked back up) and determines the general flow of the dungeon. Personally, I think tanking and leading go hand-in-hand.

while this is true,it's also because you really can't rely on DPS when it comes to any form of thinking and responsability

[Spazzix]

How to figure out what went wrong when a Mythic goes haywire?

A good first tool is a death log that will show you what damage and healing a person received and the time intervals of those things. So if a tank dies and I'm not really sure what happened I can look at the death log and see

-0.8s Melee 350k
-0.3s Water Blast 300k
-0.1s Wash Away 300k

And this will tell you a few things:
1. Melee for 350k is pretty bad unless there is a specific reason for it like the tank buster obelisk 100% damage taken (but if they can't mitigate it under 350k swings they should probably be kiting). So this could mean they weren't managing mitigation properly

2. Water Blast is a kickable spell cast that deals a lot of damage. Someone should have kicked it. Maybe not the tanks fault if he was on CD, but definitely someones fault (or everyones' if kicks were all overlapped and nobody is calling them).

3. Wash Away is an avoidable ground target spell that the tank needed to get out of.

These are specific examples of general things but all dungeons are going to have things that should be stopped and things that should be moved out of.

Death logs can also show you when you're at fault. If a tank dies over 3-4 seconds without direct healing from you, that's probably on you.

After you run a lot of dungeons you get a feel for roughly how much healing certain levels/pulls/bosses should take so you'll have a general feeling for when a tank is on the weaker side. (This takes a while though, you can't hold it against an average tank just because you've gotten lucky with a log of godly tanks that require no healing).

Specifically for tanks, the big thing you might want to try doing, if you haven't already, is learn what their bread and butter mitigation is (ironskin brew, shield block, shield of the righteous, ironfur etc) as well as their big CDs and have a way to track them. If you see a brewmaster hanging out in combat without ironskin brew half the time watch out because they are bad. When it comes to big CDs, ideally you have a tank that will call for your pain sup when needed, but if they don't, it's your responsibility to not overlap it with their big mitigation (conversely, if you pain supp them then they pop a big mitigation it's on them but really there should be communication about it to avoid either scenario).

Finally, you can't expect your group to know the best time to pop defensives. Cragmaw tantrum (UR) and tank flame vents (Workshop) are great examples of times when you need to let your party know about defensives and healing. Would you prefer to have one fewer person to heal each time? Ask your hunter to turtle shell one and your mage to ice block one. Need to pop all your stuff to heal through so you're worried about the second one? Ask your whole party to pop a defensive and/or hp pot on one. As keys get higher, DPS don't have the luxury of popping something every time it feels a little dicey. They are trusting you to heal them unless you let them know the heal isn't coming.

So:

Death logs: how long did the death take, was the damage avoidable?
CDs: have a way to know when your tank has mitigation up and manage your healing wisely around it.
Communication: Know your limits as a healer and let your group know when you need help.


Edit: I realize this sounds a bit like a "how to", but the point is if you're on top of these things then you'll have a much easier time seeing what went wrong.

[TorAndre]

Tanks are the punching bags if anything goes bad in M+ since Legion.
Last week i helped a guild m8 in a 4+ for fun and i got flamed by the 2 dmg dealer for 15 min. after the dungeon.
They had a 2k+ Raiting on their mains and i dared to walked a easy way so they dont pull all the time but they pulled 10+ mobs nonstop.
Ofc we didnt wiped one time, got a 3+ in the end and i did more dmg as the 3 dmg dealer together.
Also i got a Item and they acted like its their loot and demanded to give it to one of them.

What a bunch of idiots. I alwaya want to meet people like that IRL.

[Thzz]

A good first tool is a death log that will show you what damage and healing a person received and the time intervals of those things. So if a tank dies and I'm not really sure what happened I can look at the death log and see

ty. great post. exactly what I was looking for.

[Alvito]

It's really sad that this is the tank's job... Knowing which mobs need to die first is something one would think the DPS should know on their own.

It is the dps job too, but the tank is often the only one that can really move them. As for @Thzz if you are running disc you need to be aware of what happens to heal well since it is a proactive spec much more so than all other healers other than trees.

[dacoolist]

Tanks are and have always been the trendsetter. Your group can do great or bad things if the tank is the strong or weak link: but I’ll say this.. if your dps are straight FIRE: your run will be suppppper ez to heal. The second your 3 deeps or tank are trash means you as the healer have to make up that slack: sometimes its just not possible

[Gestopft]

A big part of knowing what went wrong is knowing the mechanics. This is also the best way to keep things under control (as best you can) in the first place. The thing about PUG healing is that you can run a +6 one day and be healing your ass off the entire time, and then do the same dungeon on +9 with a different group and feel completely extraneous. So I might say run the same dungeon a couple times in a row with different groups. And look up (on Wowhead) offensive dispels that you can do as a priest.

[Thzz]

Tanks are and have always been the trendsetter. Your group can do great or bad things if the tank is the strong or weak link: but I’ll say this.. if your dps are straight FIRE: your run will be suppppper ez to heal. The second your 3 deeps or tank are trash means you as the healer have to make up that slack: sometimes its just not possible

A big part of knowing what went wrong is knowing the mechanics. This is also the best way to keep things under control (as best you can) in the first place. The thing about PUG healing is that you can run a +6 one day and be healing your ass off the entire time, and then do the same dungeon on +9 with a different group and feel completely extraneous. So I might say run the same dungeon a couple times in a row with different groups. And look up (on Wowhead) offensive dispels that you can do as a priest.

yes, above is exactly what got me thinking and wanting me to get better understanding.

will def get more familiar with each dungeon . to help get thru with haywire groups we all might need to know a bit more than "dont stand in stuff" and "keep away from that purple thing".

Previously when trying to figure this out or ask the group after a wipe, more times than not, tank just barrels ahead and rarely does ANYONE say anything about what caused wipe maybe not making the same mistake again. Prob just the nature of the pug beast, always has been always will be.

Its ironic because if we would take a few seconds talking about one simple mechanic to , we could save much more time by not wiping, people would learn and I would think enjoy it more. Also since I am still running the lower keys, as long as group doesn't wipe again and again, the timer is almost never a a problem.

[Zephire]

You also have to take into consideration your group. What type of classes? What's the experience level of the individuals? What tools are at your desposal? Someone not using short cooldowns on trash (Wings as a Paladin etc)?

It's one thing to learn how the dungeon works and how mobbs interact with eachother but as a tank you also have to keep in mind that if the healer or dps doesn't have X output then your regular pulls will be very risky. So maybe you pull less trash, taking it slower just because it's better for the group.

I've been doing some quite low m+ (4-7) just to help people out (I'm a ~478 ilvl tank) and sometimes I just go WAY to hard because I:
1. Realize I can pull more because I don't take damage.
2. Forget that the average dps is way, way lower than for a higher 15+ key.
3. Forget that generally at this level people havn't grasped most of the mechanics of trash so things that is easily handeled (like interrupts) screws you over at this level.

This leads to, in worste case scenarios, the group disbanding, everyone calling me a noob and gear boosted. I should see this comming as a tank. I should adjust my playstyle but sometimes one just forgets and go with the normal zerg m+ stuff.

So, how do you spot this?
Take Motherlode as an example, you wipe on first pull:
Did the tank do a managable pull? -> There's a lot of casters in the beginning, were they manageble with the amount of interrupts in the group?
Did the healer dispel debuffs? -> If the casts isn't interrupted people turn to iceblocks which can be dispelled.
Did the dps take avoidable damage? -> Avoiding granades etc.
Did group members pull extra? -> Sometimes this is not an issue but it can also be. If the tank pulls just enough and then someone pull two casters extra which can't be interrupted due to not enough interrupts.
Did group members use cooldowns to survive/deal extra damage? -> No cooldowns can really screw a pull depending on if it's doable with CDs only.
Was the dps too low, for reals? -> If you overpull or things go out of hand, dps might go down as people try to survive or getting CC:ed which isn't the same as people being bad.

How do you fix it?
Talk it over with the group. Don't call people bad, just state the fact that the group can't handle that many interrupts, that you need to wait for CDs, that the group takes too much damage giving the healer no time to waste a global CD on a dispell etc. Another trick is to "lure" people into thinking you need them. It's always nice to feel as if you're needed and appriciated. So you could say "I can't manage this alone, can someone help me out? It would be very nice. Thank you!" rather than "Interrupt more, you badz...".

And as others have said, check causes of death, amount of interrupts, what was interrupted, if everyone overlapped their interrupt etc. DMG meters are realy helpful in that regard.

[potis]

yes, above is exactly what got me thinking and wanting me to get better understanding.

will def get more familiar with each dungeon . to help get thru with haywire groups we all might need to know a bit more than "dont stand in stuff" and "keep away from that purple thing".

Previously when trying to figure this out or ask the group after a wipe, more times than not, tank just barrels ahead and rarely does ANYONE say anything about what caused wipe maybe not making the same mistake again. Prob just the nature of the pug beast, always has been always will be.

Its ironic because if we would take a few seconds talking about one simple mechanic to , we could save much more time by not wiping, people would learn and I would think enjoy it more. Also since I am still running the lower keys, as long as group doesn't wipe again and again, the timer is almost never a a problem.

You are playing the only healer class that should not be pugging.

Despite the fact you are horribly overgeared for those small keys you mention you had issues which can mean a lot.

Of course this is the low quality players pug world, where a +5 is considered an achievement.

Disc Priest healing becomes passive/easy/joke when the group is at a high level itself and wont take unnecessary damage, otherwise you must be a great player yourself and preemptively react to anything, at the cost of resting whenever you can, mana pots etc.

So, you either stop pugging and find players that dodge shit, or become much faster and better at telling then level of your group so you can be ready to heal them when they will undoubtedly fail.

Its a general rule obviously and basic knowledge that the better the players, easier a healers job but for Disc priest its x400% more.

You cant have shit dps, and/or bad tank also, you cant heal both the same way the other classes would, so you either end up spamming Shadow Mend which is just bad gameplay cause you dont really have the tools to do anything else after the PW:Radiance like some other classes.

This is why you feel some groups go horribly wrong, those players are taking too much (probably unnecessary) damage, and you are probably not as good as you think you are into saving the day the same way other healers do.

Holy Priest is an active healer as example, he has the tools to save the group when they fuck up because thats how it plays.

Disc Priest is a preemptive healer, if not everyone had PW:S on, and you didnt have your radiances ready and a target to hit, boom, someone dies.

[Thzz]

.

great post. thx

You are playing the only healer class that should not be pugging.

Despite the fact you are horribly overgeared for those small keys you mention you had issues which can mean a lot.

.

qft true on Disc. I knew it going in, but I am not a big alt player (main priest, alt hunter and rogue) and also no fun for me to go roll a resto just to be leet. Im gonna push as far as I can (if that just means 9s, or 10s then it is what it is). Holy still sort sucks, but was much better, much easier, too easy, wasnt fun for me.

even with disc's problems things usually go fine when things go haywire up to 6ish, I can usually find a way to keep everyone alive. 7s 8s 9s, haywire = people die and nothing I can do. sounds like if I want to gete into upper keys will need to find a reg team. Buy agree given disc, that will cap out pretty quickly as well past 10s unless all others are great. If all others are great they will want to push to higher keys and without bubble boy to heal. so basically 10s is prob the best I can hope, and will wait it out till shadowlands when disc will be nerfed to greatness just to make up for the pain of BFA.

p.s. I know I am a very average disc priest which makes everything worse. but I get better each day. just started last week (bursting week ). the fun for me is learning the content and strats of mythic and ways to optimize the shortfalls of my lots of room left in that.

[potis]

qft true on Disc. I knew it going in, but I am not a big alt player (main priest, alt hunter and rogue) and also no fun for me to go roll a resto just to be leet. Im gonna push as far as I can (if that just means 9s, or 10s then it is what it is). Holy still sort sucks, but was much better, much easier, too easy, wasnt fun for me.

even with disc's problems things usually go fine when things go haywire up to 6ish, I can usually find a way to keep everyone alive. 7s 8s 9s, haywire = people die and nothing I can do. sounds like if I want to gete into upper keys will need to find a reg team. Buy agree given disc, that will cap out pretty quickly as well past 10s unless all others are great. If all others are great they will want to push to higher keys and without bubble boy to heal. so basically 10s is prob the best I can hope, and will wait it out till shadowlands when disc will be nerfed to greatness just to make up for the pain of BFA.

p.s. I know I am a very average disc priest which makes everything worse. but I get better each day. just started last week (bursting week ). the fun for me is learning the content and strats of mythic and ways to optimize the shortfalls of my lots of room left in that.

I am not trying to call you bad or demoralize you.

Generally, how to say it..M+ up to like 12, is irrelevant content, nothing actually hurts for a half competent player, which you will not find in the pug world, which is what makes Disc priest life extra miserable.

Which is what i said about being actually preemptive, you basically admitted you have no clue (Again, not insulting), which makes your life even worst.

My suggestion would be, go back to Holy, spam as many dungeons as you can and learn each pack and what hurts or not, Fortified weeks play differently than Tyrannical weeks, Bursting plays different to Teeming, etc then as a Disc priest you can actually start being preemptive.

Cause from your posts i can kinda see you are trying to actively heal as a Disc priest, and it simply does not work like that with bad players, and you are basically doing half the difficulty of the content you should be doing in your gear.

I am not the best of healers, and i did heal a +15 on my then 450-455 Shaman alt and i have never healed as a shaman before in the 15 years of WoW i have been playing, and we didnt time it because it was a carry run (430 alt, 450 alt and terrible player main ), but no one actually died miserably, cause as a player i know exactly when to do what, which is more important than gear, 1 stun totem can simply save a wipe, one earth elemental, and all of those small things, and of course, Wind Shear backup.

[Twdft]

Regarding the title of your topic: active mitigation is the bread and butter of tanking. I suggest you get some kind of display if the tank keeps it up. I made me a weak aura which just shows the icon of ability and uptime left. And I'm not even playing a healer but when things go sideways, your healer just died, it's nice to know if your tank still has mitigation up so I can judge if he dies now or 4 seconds later to use my personal def.