X'era, Argus, Kil'jaedan, N'zoth and co in Shadowlands

[Ophenia]

*because* of the Death Titan, Argus The Unmaker, who now ironically is dead.

Is he ?
Honest question here, not bothering much with lore outside of the game so no idea what is canon or not

[faithbane]

Also, the Old Gods were warring against each other, likely because each of them wanted that power for themselves and the corruption would have manifested akin to say, Cho'Gall with C'thun's power, or Garrosh with Y'Shaarj's power. Who knows if said Corrupted World-Soul would have even listened to the Void Lords at that point, if it's supposedly more powerful than they are.

Do not go into old god prisons, death/defeat, and fighting among each other because those are remnants of the old lore that doesn't make any sense at all in the current iteration. Blizz had to shove those under the rug and pretend everything is tied together with a neat chronicles bow but its barely making any sense.

In the past lore, the old gods were the "big bads" since void lords weren't ass-pulled yet so most of the mythology about their background, why they can't really die etc is from the past. Basically old gods in the past were fighting with each other for dominance over the planet because that was the endgame, there were no void lords etc that they were working for. They were lovecraftian primeval chaos/evil deities.

The current old gods are just void lord seeds and they can be easily whacked. They were "prisoned" based on past lore because killing them would suppose to hurt the planet since they were parasitic evil beings with roots going to the core of the planet bla bla bla.. they tried to retcon that into the whole when ripped out of the planet by titans it bled the titan soul BS but still it doesn't hold together. Since, ff we can kill them (confirmed by blizz with nzoth that all old gods are DEAD dead), there is no reason why the watchers and titan constructs couldn't kill them in the past in a less over the top way then plucking one off the planet.

[Raetary]

Is he ?
Honest question here, not bothering much with lore outside of the game so no idea what is canon or not

No, it's speculation based on his abilities being labeled "deathtitan" in the databse.

[Mic_128]

there is no reason why the watchers and titan constructs couldn't kill them in the past in a less over the top way then plucking one off the planet.

I imagine because it would be like a human trying to remove a tick. Do it wrong and you end up with a whole other problem. Instead the Titans created the Keepers and their forces to fight the Old Gods and their minions down at their level.

[Ophenia]

No, it's speculation based on his abilities being labeled "deathtitan" in the databse.

I was more referring to the fact he's dead. We can see him as ... constellation-thing form in the final cinematic, but I don't know if something happens afterwards that clearly means he's dead

[Raetary]

I was more referring to the fact he's dead. We can see him as ... constellation-thing form in the final cinematic, but I don't know if something happens afterwards that clearly means he's dead

He's dead, the pantheon used whatever remained of his power to help them imprison Sargeras.

[Uthan]

Per the interview with Steve Danuser by Taliesin and Evitel a while back:

"You will as you play Shadowlands you'll start understanding that there are certain rules in place for the cosmos and the shadowlands is built specifically as a place for mortal souls to go, or souls that are of death magic in a way, in the same way that demons when you kill them on Azeroth they went back to disorder, to the twisting nether, to all of that, so these are kind of some of the rules of our universe that we go by and if you look at those rules that we've established before and that we are laying the groundwork for here you can start kind of piecing some things together and maybe even might speculate about certain other ways that these interact with and how those beings of other cosmic forces, what might happen to them when they've been killed."

"So if it is only for mortal races and I don't know what the actual status of the Titans is, because what you've said was fascinating but like most people in chat probably got stuck a little bit on titan homeworld when you said that. That's the headline here. Are you saying that Titans wouldn't be found in the Shadowlands, they wouldn't die and head there they might have somewhere else?"

"So what I would say is that, the nature of a being, of a magical being. So I kind of make two big distinctions between magical beings and mortal beings. Mortal beings are what we see in the mortal realm where Azeroth is and worlds like Draenor and other worlds where we've either slightly visited or that could still be out there that we haven't seen yet. So they have, there's a set of rules for mortal beings and then there's a set of rules for magical beings. And I would say that the demons of the Burning Legion, the REAL demons, like they we've seen what happens to them by those rules and so maybe you would project upon that what happens to beings of other cosmic influences when they have died. Maybe there is other places that they go."

[plz delete account]

Is he ?
Honest question here, not bothering much with lore outside of the game so no idea what is canon or not

Go do Antorus The Burning Throne ingame.

[Ophenia]

Go do Antorus The Burning Throne ingame.

Done it, you see his soul as constellation-thing in the ending cinematic (the exact same shape as before he was born)

He's dead, the pantheon used whatever remained of his power to help them imprison Sargeras.

Thanks, is it officially explained somewhere ? Might have missed it

[Molvonos]

Do not go into old god prisons, death/defeat, and fighting among each other because those are remnants of the old lore that doesn't make any sense at all in the current iteration. Blizz had to shove those under the rug and pretend everything is tied together with a neat chronicles bow but its barely making any sense.

In the past lore, the old gods were the "big bads" since void lords weren't ass-pulled yet so most of the mythology about their background, why they can't really die etc is from the past. Basically old gods in the past were fighting with each other for dominance over the planet because that was the endgame, there were no void lords etc that they were working for. They were lovecraftian primeval chaos/evil deities.

The current old gods are just void lord seeds and they can be easily whacked. They were "prisoned" based on past lore because killing them would suppose to hurt the planet since they were parasitic evil beings with roots going to the core of the planet bla bla bla.. they tried to retcon that into the whole when ripped out of the planet by titans it bled the titan soul BS but still it doesn't hold together. Since, ff we can kill them (confirmed by blizz with nzoth that all old gods are DEAD dead), there is no reason why the watchers and titan constructs couldn't kill them in the past in a less over the top way then plucking one off the planet.

What precisely did they retcon?

As far as we knew, the Old Gods were the big bads. We, as characters and players, had no idea what lay beyond Azeroth save for demons. In Classic, we purged Stormwind of the Black Dragon problem (Onyxia) as Alliance. Molten Core, too, was a problem, as Ragnaros wanted to burn away everything (and as far as we knew, the Elemental Lords served the Old Gods).

Blackwing Lair had us deal with Nefarian (another Black Dragon and Onyxia's brother). The Horde took this win (as evidence by the head on a stick).

This ultimately culminated in the events of AQ, where we deal with C'Thun, our first Old God. We start learning about the Old Gods and how powerful they are.

(Leaving out Naxx as that has to deal with the Legion rather than the Old Gods)

Anyways, fast forward. It makes perfect sense (to me) that the Titans reacted the way they did. Aman-Thul ripped out Y'Shaarj, which had been deeply rooted, and like tearing up a large bush or tree, with an expansive root system, Y'Shaarj destroyed a sizable hole in Azeroth's mantle, creating what would become the Well of Eternity. Did they want to risk that happening again? No. They didn't. Especially since Azeroth was a Titan World-Soul.

So why didn't the Titans shrink down and deal with the remaining Old Gods like we did? Perhaps they didn't have the means and their constructs kept getting corrupted, which was beyond their parameters and understanding. They thought, erroneously, that imprisoning the Old Gods in the earth was the way to go. And then they turned around and empowered the Dragon Aspects (The Warder of Earth was summarily fucked at this point, given the 'Whispers').

It was pretty obvious to a lot of us that we, the players, were -killing- the Old Gods when we destroyed them. Of course, their brainwashed or entirely subservient minions would say and believe they are 'Beyond the cycle'. Given what we know of the Old Gods, and their rather cytoplasmic, protozoan existence, perhaps they believe that because all it takes is a little, tiny piece of them to not get destroyed for them to regrow. It requires going 'inside' of them (Which we have done with every proper Old God boss-fight) and destroying their vital organs n' stuff.

But it feels that you're biased. There's nothing wrong with the revisions to the lore. It all makes sense and flows together. It makes the universe much larger and the scope of things much more imposing -- we know next to nothing about the Void Lords (though I imagine people assume they'd look similar to our warlock blueberries). It feels like, rather than trying to understand the 'world' that Blizzard is building (which I will admit, there's plenty of bad writing to go around, as a writer and world builder, almost all of BfA should embarrass them), you're just putting your foot down, based on the points you've made.

You throw around words like 'ass-pull' and terms like 'bla bla bla' without going into detail regarding why you feel that way, or the logic behind it. I'd love to read it if you have any.

[Schattenlied]

Argus is a Titan, not a demon. And, Chronicle 3's assertion about demons and the twisting nether (which was canon even before C3) got retconned six months later in Shadows of Argus, where lore NOW states that they did so *because* of the Death Titan, Argus The Unmaker, who now ironically is dead.

Pretty sure it was said that Argus was being used to accelerate their rebirth, not cause it. It couldn't have been retconned because the entire reason Sargeras was imprisoning the Demons on that one planet (the one he cleaved in half later) instead of killing them is because they could not be permanently killed, that's the entire reason he used them to make the Legion to combat the void, all of that happened before he ever discovered Argus.

And Argus was as much "the death titan" as Yogg'saron was "the god of death", which is to say not at all, it's just a title Sargeras gave to him after corrupting him.

[Raetary]

Thanks, is it officially explained somewhere ? Might have missed it

It's shown in the ending cinematic, they pooled their power into Argus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c7HeXzKRJ0

And they confirmed it in some Interview, can't find that one tho.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Argus is a Titan, not a demon. And, Chronicle 3's assertion about demons and the twisting nether (which was canon even before C3) got retconned six months later in Shadows of Argus, where lore NOW states that they did so *because* of the Death Titan, Argus The Unmaker, who now ironically is dead.

I don't actually know how canon that is, simply because Demon Hunters are known to have demon souls, and that's how they're able to come back to life. This is something that was even said outright by Illidan within the Demon Hunter quest-lines. There was, at some point, mention that Argus simply expedited their return. All that said, WoW lore is a god damn mess.

[iamthedevil]

Argus is a Titan, not a demon. And, Chronicle 3's assertion about demons and the twisting nether (which was canon even before C3) got retconned six months later in Shadows of Argus, where lore NOW states that they did so *because* of the Death Titan, Argus The Unmaker, who now ironically is dead.

Incorrect. Argus was expediting the process, not creating it.

[Zyky]

I'm calling it now.
We're likely to see X'era, Argus, Kil'jaedan, and possibly at least one of our old god buddies in Shadowlands, since lore states they are well and truly dead...

...which means they are probably hanging out in shadowlands bitching about Azerothians (And to some extent Argussians because Draenei, LFD, and Draenorians because orcs)

So, who's ready to speculate about a patch or two being dedicated to some of those who we thought we were rid of?

That isn't how death works for Demons, Titans, Naaru, and Old Gods.

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Argus is a Titan, not a demon. And, Chronicle 3's assertion about demons and the twisting nether (which was canon even before C3) got retconned six months later in Shadows of Argus, where lore NOW states that they did so *because* of the Death Titan, Argus The Unmaker, who now ironically is dead.

There is no evidence of Argus dying, nor do we know the exact process of what happens when a Titan is defeated. The Argus encounter ends before his health reaches 0, the cinematic doesn't show or mention him at all. We have no idea what happened to Argus. If it's anything like Aggrammar, his body disappears briefly and then is able to come back fairly fast.

[Yorimar]

We don't even know if dragons go there in the first place, we have one vague datamined hint with Ysera, but she was special because of her connection to Elune, the Dream, the way she died and her status as a former aspect.

Deathwing/Neltharian used to be one of the 5 before he got corrupted. so if that would play a part in one being able to go to shadowlands then Deathwing/Neltharian certainly fits that desciption

[Cosmic Janitor]

Deathwing/Neltharian used to be one of the 5 before he got corrupted. so if that would play a part in one being able to go to shadowlands then Deathwing/Neltharian certainly fits that desciption

My point was that Ysera is too unique. The aspect part also has a double connotation. For one she was empowered by the titans, if that is related to the shadowlands then the others are obviously as much elegible as she would be. But I think the more important part is that she was the aspect of the very dream itself, which is supposedly tightly knight with Ardenweald. So it remains to be seen if she goes there as the only aspect, one of the aspects (I'd like to meet Malygos personally), one of the greens or one of all of dragon kind.

[Ophenia]

It's shown in the ending cinematic, they pooled their power into Argus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c7HeXzKRJ0

And they confirmed it in some Interview, can't find that one tho.

Ah okay, I was just feeling they linked their energy together + Argus' energy to pull Sargeras. I wasn't under the impression it's the Pantheon's way to just ... obliterate Argus into oblivion just to use him as energy smh

But if they confirmed it, then I'm fine with it. Still feels weird though. :P

[plz delete account]

That isn't how death works for Demons, Titans, Naaru, and Old Gods.

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There is no evidence of Argus dying, nor do we know the exact process of what happens when a Titan is defeated. The Argus encounter ends before his health reaches 0, the cinematic doesn't show or mention him at all. We have no idea what happened to Argus. If it's anything like Aggrammar, his body disappears briefly and then is able to come back fairly fast.

"no evidence of Argus dying" except you know, an entire boss fight dedicated to killing him, and the Pantheon using the last power within his essence to imprison Sargeras.

Someone hasn't done Antorus or followed the lore.

[Felrane]

Ah okay, I was just feeling they linked their energy together + Argus' energy to pull Sargeras. I wasn't under the impression it's the Pantheon's way to just ... obliterate Argus into oblivion just to use him as energy smh

But if they confirmed it, then I'm fine with it. Still feels weird though. :P

I kind of hope Blizzard goes back to Titans being assholes. Wrath they showed that they were ok with burning away planets if they wouldn't follow their vision. In BFA we see that Mother has been performing experiments for 10,000 years. I mean she captured Loa and infected them with G'huun then when it failed just tossed them in the trash. She cut up Zek'voz into peices while he was still alive then put him back togeter for who knows how long. She also created G'huun himself out of parts of another Old God. So the Titans burning up what was left of Argus to imprison Sargaras seems like a Titan thing to do. He was already Fel corrupted and insane. The Titans were still weak from being Dead and mostly shells of their former selves. Titans are Arcane constructs and Arcane is Order. Them not having what we would consider morals would fit. They want Order and do whatever they must.