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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    "no evidence of Argus dying" except you know, an entire boss fight dedicated to killing him, and the Pantheon using the last power within his essence to imprison Sargeras.

    Someone hasn't done Antorus or followed the lore.
    Except you know, the encounter ends before his health reaches zero. There is zero evidence of him dying. And NOWHERE in the lore does it say the Pantheon used his power to imprison Sargeras.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Except you know, the encounter ends before his health reaches zero. There is zero evidence of him dying. And NOWHERE in the lore does it say the Pantheon used his power to imprison Sargeras.
    Um, what did you think happened when they put his essence inside Illidan? That is literally imprisonment.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    Um, what did you think happened when they put his essence inside Illidan? That is literally imprisonment.
    What are you even talking about? They didn't do anything to Argus or Illidan. Argus literally just disappears. Go watch the cinematic again, nobody puts anything "inside Illidan". Him claiming that the Pantheon used the last of Argus' power is nonsense put up on wowpedia with zero evidence, just like your claim of Illidan getting his essence.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    We fought him and now he's gone, unless evidence appears to the contrary - he is dead
    Except Titans don't die derp derp.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I've literally never heard that in the lore before

    Wasn't the current expansion literally based on preventing a titan from dying?

    Derp fucking derp
    Not to mention that we literally ended up killing a titan at the end of legion.


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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I've literally never heard that in the lore before

    Wasn't the current expansion literally based on preventing a titan from dying?

    Derp fucking derp
    Azeroth isn't a born Titan, especially not in the sense of Argus, Aggrammar, Sargeras, ect. You can't kill Titans, we got confirmation of this last expansion when the souls of the Titans were captured and imprisoned and then once we freed them they regenerated back their bodies.

    Do you know any of the lore? Or are you just talking out your ass?
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  7. #47
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Azeroth isn't a born Titan, especially not in the sense of Argus, Aggrammar, Sargeras, ect. You can't kill Titans, we got confirmation of this last expansion when the souls of the Titans were captured and imprisoned and then once we freed them they regenerated back their bodies.

    Do you know any of the lore? Or are you just talking out your ass?
    Asking someone if they know any lore is a big ask for someone about to be dunked on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronicle: Vol. 1 (Page 24)
    Rage and anguish burned through Sargeras's soul. He smote the nathrezim with a single blow - his fury was so great that he utterly obliterated the demons' forms. Sargeras turned his attention to the black world itself. His heart ached with sorrow, for he knew there was only one way to stop the dark titan from rising.

    With a heave of his blade, Sargeras split the world in two. The resultant explosion consumed the Old Gods and their energies, but it killed the nascent titan as well.
    So we know that titans can die. What about the Pantheon titans, a confused forum goer might cry: they weren't killed! Worry not friends, for I too have a quote for this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronicle: Vol. 1 (Page 50)
    The fallen titan decimated the Pantheon members with fel fire until he had broken their will to fight. To seal their demise, Sargeras summoned a massive fel storm that would consume their bodies and souls alike. Yet just as the furious onslaught of energy washed over the defeated titans, Norgannon made one last attempt to stave off oblivion.

    Norgannon bent the raw energies of the universe to his will, weaving a protective shroud around each of the Pantheon titans' spirits and launched them into the Great Dark. While the titans' disembodied souls hurled through the cosmos, Sargeras's fel storm obliterated what remained of their physical forms.
    So not only can nascent titans die, but we know the Pantheon would have been killed by Sargeras if Norgannon had not saved them. Amazing, so we have now established that titans can indeed die.

    Though now it is my unfortunate duty, Zyky. I must ask you two questions:

    Do you know any of the lore? Or are you just talking out your ass?
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    The fact they weren't dead in your mind proves they can't die? There is zero lore that states they cannot die
    Don't worry, you're right. Chronicle is pretty explicit that titans can die.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Seasz View Post
    I wonder if we'll see Deathwing/Neltharion as well. His soul for surely must've been cast directly to the Maw.
    I'm always on the fence about this.

    Arthas was corrupted by Nerzhul and the Burning Legion, his actions aren't entirely his own fault. Yeah, he was filled with vengeance, and his efforts to purge Strat were pretty severe, but he believed they were neccessary measures to save the world from the plague and he might have needed to go even farther to really prevent everything that went down.

    Also, Deathwing was once a heroic protector, if a bit materialistic. His domain over the earth and all the deep places makes him susceptible to materialistic goals and subjected him to the whisperings of the Old Gods, again, corrupting an otherwise reasonably heroic character and turning him into a supervillain.

    I don't know why Arthas, who was mind controlled by a trap laid for him by the Dreadlords, and Deathwing, who was mind controlled by the Old Gods, are somehow damned to the Maw, where Kael'thas, who by all accounts WILLINGLY betrayed like 4 different factions, including his own people, only has to go see the Venthyr to have the wickedness punished out of him.

    Seems to me the two guys who were converted to evil under great duress are better candidates for 'redemption through suffering' than the guy who repeatedly fucked over the people trying to help him.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Azeroth isn't a born Titan, especially not in the sense of Argus
    Wrong. Argus was never born either. At best, Sargeras performed the equivalent of a c-section, at worst, he was draining a fetus.

  10. #50
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PalliesThrowStuff View Post
    I'm always on the fence about this.

    Arthas was corrupted by Nerzhul and the Burning Legion, his actions aren't entirely his own fault. Yeah, he was filled with vengeance, and his efforts to purge Strat were pretty severe, but he believed they were neccessary measures to save the world from the plague and he might have needed to go even farther to really prevent everything that went down.

    Also, Deathwing was once a heroic protector, if a bit materialistic. His domain over the earth and all the deep places makes him susceptible to materialistic goals and subjected him to the whisperings of the Old Gods, again, corrupting an otherwise reasonably heroic character and turning him into a supervillain.

    I don't know why Arthas, who was mind controlled by a trap laid for him by the Dreadlords, and Deathwing, who was mind controlled by the Old Gods, are somehow damned to the Maw, where Kael'thas, who by all accounts WILLINGLY betrayed like 4 different factions, including his own people, only has to go see the Venthyr to have the wickedness punished out of him.

    Seems to me the two guys who were converted to evil under great duress are better candidates for 'redemption through suffering' than the guy who repeatedly fucked over the people trying to help him.
    If I had to guess perhaps Arthas's crimes are so massive that an automatic Maw sentence and even during Lich Kingdom he still did terrible things and such. You also gotta wonder how much does the Arbiter know about the events surrounding Arthas, is she aware of the Legion that basically used the Scourge and the LK to invade Azeroth.

    As for Deathwing, I like to think if to make up for some of the missteps in Cata he'd end up in Revendrath(If Dragons go to the Shadowlands but I assume they do) if only because being driven insane by whispers and the Old Gods seems pretty much not the worst thing in the world. I'd argue he could get some sympathy but depending on Neltharion's own feelings on the matter(Like maybe he resents the Titans/Titan Keepers for giving him powers that lead to his downfall instead of admitting he was consumed by the Void).

    Interesting stuff to think about.


    Wrong. Argus was never born either. At best, Sargeras performed the equivalent of a c-section, at worst, he was draining a fetus.
    I always considered Argus the titan version of a premature baby.
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  11. #51
    Banned Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Except you know, the encounter ends before his health reaches zero. There is zero evidence of him dying. And NOWHERE in the lore does it say the Pantheon used his power to imprison Sargeras.
    Does it?
    Again, you are proving you are talking out of your ass. the first non-heal raid encounters to do this were in BFA. Jaina, Azshara.
    Last edited by Lilithvia; 2020-05-09 at 11:08 PM.

  12. #52
    if there are some old bosses we killed there in shadowlands they should make some of them world bosses to fight them again

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Why killing a demon in the twisting nether would kill it completely though, that is is an entirely diffrent matter and another of these cases that makes no sense. If anything that should just speed up the resurrection process. It would make sense if you "kill the soul" in the twisting nether, but losing it's mortal shell? No, all that changes is that the soul doesn't have to waft back through time and space. Bad lore is bad.
    I'm guessing it's the same thing as with elemental lords. If you kill it on Azeroth, it's banished back to its home plane. If you kill it on its home plane, it's truly dead, such as with Ragnaros. This is pure speculation, but it may be that the essence of the demon has nowhere to retreat to when killed there (it's already in the Twisting Nether, so it doesn't go anywhere), so the attack that kills the body also destroys the essence. Essentially, when the body dies outside the nether, the demon's "soul" is whisked away to the Nether the moment before the body expires, but when the body is in the Twisting Nether, the soul stays with the body since it's already in the Nether, and it thus dies with the body. *shrug*

  14. #54
    Banned Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Imagine getting dunked on by like 4 people in a row lol
    Yeah, not pretty for Zyky right now.

    We should get back onto topic. Wonder if we'll see Argus or Xe'ra in shadowlands.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    Argus is a Titan, not a demon. And, Chronicle 3's assertion about demons and the twisting nether (which was canon even before C3) got retconned six months later in Shadows of Argus, where lore NOW states that they did so *because* of the Death Titan, Argus The Unmaker, who now ironically is dead.
    Didn't actually get retconned here, Argus was simply speeding up the process of them reincarnating in the Nether. Without him it takes considerably longer for any individual demon to respawn.

  16. #56
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    KJ died in the twisting nether, meaning... he's actually dead.
    Not respawning in the TN dead, but dead dead and therefore shadowlands material.

    and the zones we've seen in SL include mortal and immortal souls
    *cough* Hakkar *cough*
    but in this sh8t called lore we have demons who died in twisting neither yet still alive like a lot from TBC era like sorcessar or whatever his name is so dying in twisting neither means u are dead but not really because f8ck lore, after all it is from a creature pov who was killed since 25k years before dark portal with their souls trapped by a loli rapist wanna be and were only released after legion, so how the f8ck can they know anything about lore when they were trapped during 99% of it?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Unless they've changed their minds or I've made this up - I swear they said recently dead haven't made it to shadowlands yet - I'm pretty sure they gave the example of Garrosh or Varian not being there, it was on one of the panels if memory serves correctly
    they may said that, won't surprise me
    even if they clearly stated that all nelfs who died in the burning tree went straight to the maw to fuel it, while both varian and garrosh died year(s) before it
    but since when blizz give a f8ck about lore? not since Metzen quit at least
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  17. #57
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    but since when blizz give a f8ck about lore? not since Metzen quit at least
    You can still care and make mistakes and obviously they do care.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by PalliesThrowStuff View Post
    I'm always on the fence about this.

    Arthas was corrupted by Nerzhul and the Burning Legion, his actions aren't entirely his own fault. Yeah, he was filled with vengeance, and his efforts to purge Strat were pretty severe, but he believed they were neccessary measures to save the world from the plague and he might have needed to go even farther to really prevent everything that went down.

    Also, Deathwing was once a heroic protector, if a bit materialistic. His domain over the earth and all the deep places makes him susceptible to materialistic goals and subjected him to the whisperings of the Old Gods, again, corrupting an otherwise reasonably heroic character and turning him into a supervillain.

    I don't know why Arthas, who was mind controlled by a trap laid for him by the Dreadlords, and Deathwing, who was mind controlled by the Old Gods, are somehow damned to the Maw, where Kael'thas, who by all accounts WILLINGLY betrayed like 4 different factions, including his own people, only has to go see the Venthyr to have the wickedness punished out of him.

    Seems to me the two guys who were converted to evil under great duress are better candidates for 'redemption through suffering' than the guy who repeatedly fucked over the people trying to help him.
    After fusing with Ner'zhul and before his re-awakening at the start of WotLK Arthus chose to becomes evil if you read the LK novel. He defeats both Ner'zhul who tries to control him and his humanity that was holding him back.

    Yes he was manipulated but in the end he chose to be evil.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    You can still care and make mistakes and obviously they do care.
    Didnt you know? Blizzard must be the epitome of perfection or they are a colossal failure that doesn't care about anything.

  20. #60
    Banned Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Unless they've changed their minds or I've made this up - I swear they said recently dead haven't made it to shadowlands yet - I'm pretty sure they gave the example of Garrosh or Varian not being there, it was on one of the panels if memory serves correctly
    they said everyone was getting sucked into the Maw. Which, happens to be in the Shadowlands.

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