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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    Yeah, not pretty for Zyky right now.

    We should get back onto topic. Wonder if we'll see Argus or Xe'ra in shadowlands.
    Unless they've changed their minds or I've made this up - I swear they said recently dead haven't made it to shadowlands yet - I'm pretty sure they gave the example of Garrosh or Varian not being there, it was on one of the panels if memory serves correctly

  2. #62
    Immortal sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    KJ died in the twisting nether, meaning... he's actually dead.
    Not respawning in the TN dead, but dead dead and therefore shadowlands material.

    and the zones we've seen in SL include mortal and immortal souls
    *cough* Hakkar *cough*
    but in this sh8t called lore we have demons who died in twisting neither yet still alive like a lot from TBC era like sorcessar or whatever his name is so dying in twisting neither means u are dead but not really because f8ck lore, after all it is from a creature pov who was killed since 25k years before dark portal with their souls trapped by a loli rapist wanna be and were only released after legion, so how the f8ck can they know anything about lore when they were trapped during 99% of it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Unless they've changed their minds or I've made this up - I swear they said recently dead haven't made it to shadowlands yet - I'm pretty sure they gave the example of Garrosh or Varian not being there, it was on one of the panels if memory serves correctly
    they may said that, won't surprise me
    even if they clearly stated that all nelfs who died in the burning tree went straight to the maw to fuel it, while both varian and garrosh died year(s) before it
    but since when blizz give a f8ck about lore? not since Metzen quit at least
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  3. #63
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    but since when blizz give a f8ck about lore? not since Metzen quit at least
    You can still care and make mistakes and obviously they do care.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by PalliesThrowStuff View Post
    I'm always on the fence about this.

    Arthas was corrupted by Nerzhul and the Burning Legion, his actions aren't entirely his own fault. Yeah, he was filled with vengeance, and his efforts to purge Strat were pretty severe, but he believed they were neccessary measures to save the world from the plague and he might have needed to go even farther to really prevent everything that went down.

    Also, Deathwing was once a heroic protector, if a bit materialistic. His domain over the earth and all the deep places makes him susceptible to materialistic goals and subjected him to the whisperings of the Old Gods, again, corrupting an otherwise reasonably heroic character and turning him into a supervillain.

    I don't know why Arthas, who was mind controlled by a trap laid for him by the Dreadlords, and Deathwing, who was mind controlled by the Old Gods, are somehow damned to the Maw, where Kael'thas, who by all accounts WILLINGLY betrayed like 4 different factions, including his own people, only has to go see the Venthyr to have the wickedness punished out of him.

    Seems to me the two guys who were converted to evil under great duress are better candidates for 'redemption through suffering' than the guy who repeatedly fucked over the people trying to help him.
    After fusing with Ner'zhul and before his re-awakening at the start of WotLK Arthus chose to becomes evil if you read the LK novel. He defeats both Ner'zhul who tries to control him and his humanity that was holding him back.

    Yes he was manipulated but in the end he chose to be evil.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    You can still care and make mistakes and obviously they do care.
    Didnt you know? Blizzard must be the epitome of perfection or they are a colossal failure that doesn't care about anything.

  6. #66
    WC3 Megathreader Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Unless they've changed their minds or I've made this up - I swear they said recently dead haven't made it to shadowlands yet - I'm pretty sure they gave the example of Garrosh or Varian not being there, it was on one of the panels if memory serves correctly
    they said everyone was getting sucked into the Maw. Which, happens to be in the Shadowlands.

  7. #67
    Immortal sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Don't worry, you're right. Chronicle is pretty explicit that titans can die.
    that actually maybe the only real canon from chronicles, since it is from their own pov
    while 99% of wow events happened during time they had no access too, they are 100% at least know what a titan is, since they are after all titans...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    You can still care and make mistakes and obviously they do care.
    do they?
    why exactly did they make the 'definite' version of lore as they used in marketing and may still even up to chronicles page on amazon, sh8tconned to be from titans pov? and how exactly it is from titans? the only reason who was afk during 99% of wow events, making it impossible for them to be a good source, exact opposite it makes anything said in chronicles is bullsh8t since we know for sure they can't know most of that stuff
    what about sh8tcon Battle for Undercity and make the 'super amazing' smart Sylvanas planned that all along? Genius! she planned to get herself killed multiple times and even suicide, without knowing about val'kirs who sacrificed a lot to save her
    what about we are 'first mortals' to step in shadowlands? how? big part of how we get to SL in first place is using the shadow priest dagger, while u can twist that DKs who went shadowlands are immortals, there are a minimum of 2 shadow priests who went to shadow lands and back, remove them form lore and it won't make sense, which is the current status anyway
    what about making me'dan disappear from lore, yet keep everything he was involved with like entire mage campaign in legion and half of Cho'gall stuff in cata still canon, how? who knows, blizz didn't give a f8ck about explain it
    what about entire WoD lore? let's make a 'kool' line about how archimonde remember us from the first fight in MHJ, a fight he shouldn't remember in first place thanks to bronze dragonflight, now all demons are one and same across all realities, but their own boss - Sargeras - is confirmed to be different since each universe has its own titans, what? ah nothing just blizz sh8tting on lore for lols

    Honestly at current lore status, i feel they enjoy ruining it on purpose, we crossed the line of mistakes to ruining on purpose by miles, and they refuse to acknowledge anything, do u remember they said that WoD lore will be explained in Chronicles and we have to wait and see? it wasn't answered in 1st one, or 2nd, or 3rd, and they have no plan to publish 4th heh
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    The shadowlands are for souls of mortals
    Are we considering Cenarius a mortal? Or just an exception?
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    they said everyone was getting sucked into the Maw. Which, happens to be in the Shadowlands.
    Oh yeah so they did, who knows then I suppose

    I wanna know what happens to the living - are we having some broken shore type deal where all the leaders mount an attack on ICC and something very bad happens? Do we get any help from the living in the shadowlands or is it literally just us - because if that's the case I think that'll be the first time we as players are alone if that makes sense

  10. #70
    Bloodsail Admiral Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    We should get back onto topic. Wonder if we'll see Argus or Xe'ra in shadowlands.
    Probably not for Argus. Chronicle seems to imply that when a titan dies, they're just dead. There's no mention of the Shadowlands or any life thereafter, Chronicle states that Norgannon staved off oblivion. This could be a literary choice, oblivion might just be used in place of death or some hereafter, but if we take the statement as being literal, then titans have no afterlife.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  11. #71
    WC3 Megathreader Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Oh yeah so they did, who knows then I suppose

    I wanna know what happens to the living - are we having some broken shore type deal where all the leaders mount an attack on ICC and something very bad happens? Do we get any help from the living in the shadowlands or is it literally just us - because if that's the case I think that'll be the first time we as players are alone if that makes sense
    We don't really know yet. that stuff hasn't hit Alpha or been discussed definitively yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Probably not for Argus. Chronicle seems to imply that when a titan dies, they're just dead. There's no mention of the Shadowlands or any life thereafter, Chronicle states that Norgannon staved off oblivion. This could be a literary choice, oblivion might just be used in place of death or some hereafter, but if we take the statement as being literal, then titans have no afterlife.
    Chronicle, and I hate quoting Pyromancer on this, is supposed to get you to critically think about what it is saying. As someone has me quoted as saying in their sig somewhere on this forum, you need to be able to follow the logic of how the missile knows where it is, because it knows where it isn't, and from where it is and where it isn't, can figure out both where it needs to be, and where it once was.
    @FelPlague you need to do a youtube video on how hard folks are getting dunked on in this thread. would make for hilarious commentary and a good "for shits and giggles" upload to make the youtube alg like you slightly more
    Last edited by Lilithvia; 2020-05-10 at 04:21 AM.

  12. #72
    Bloodsail Admiral Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PalliesThrowStuff View Post
    I don't know why Arthas, who was mind controlled by a trap laid for him by the Dreadlords, and Deathwing, who was mind controlled by the Old Gods, are somehow damned to the Maw, where Kael'thas, who by all accounts WILLINGLY betrayed like 4 different factions, including his own people, only has to go see the Venthyr to have the wickedness punished out of him.

    Seems to me the two guys who were converted to evil under great duress are better candidates for 'redemption through suffering' than the guy who repeatedly fucked over the people trying to help him.
    So, regarding Arthas, there's two things:
    First, Arthas was not mind controlled. Frostmourne took his soul and he was then plagued by Ner'zhul's whispers, but his actions were his own. Even before taking up Frostmourne, Arthas condemned his men to death by burning his fleet's ships and killing the mercenaries that worked for him.
    Second, we could arguably forgive all of Arthas' actions as a Deathknight and the questionable actions he took as a Paladin; however, we know from both Chronicle, Wrath, and Rise of the Lich King that Arthas was in full control of his actions. He overcame Ner'zhul and decided to carry out the subsequent attacks on the Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimador, with his end goal being to raise the armies of Azeroth into undeath. Granted, it was because he thought that the unified armies would be more able to guard against the threats to come, such as the Burning Legion or the return of the Old Gods, but he still carried out a calculated genocide against multiple races.

    Deathwing, as well, wasn't under a form of mind control. Driven mad, yes, but his actions were still his own. He also caused massive damage to the world through the Cataclysm.

    Kael'thas, on the other hand, didn't cause that much damage. Realistically, what did he do?
    - He helped Illidan secure Outland and fought alongside him to defeat Magtheridon.
    - He attempted, and failed, to destroy the Frozen Throne with Illidan and Vashj.
    - He attacked Shattrath after being alienated by Illidan and betrayed by some of his own men.
    - He had his forces chase the Draenei in the Exodar to Azeroth.
    - He was then "killed" for having allied with the Burning Legion.
    - He attacked Silvermoon to steal Mu'ru, who his people had been siphoning power off of like magic vampires.
    - He then went to the Magisters Terrace to help orchestrate the summoning of Kil'jaeden, but was killed before that could happen.

    The damage Kael'thas caused was minimal. It's not really comparable to Arthas or Deathwing at all.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    Are we considering Cenarius a mortal? Or just an exception?
    Is cenarius there? Also Ardenweald is clearly a special case, since the way Blizzard described their cycle and the way it interacts with the dream seems to be pretty unique, since all the other covenants are sold as one way streets. I guess the definition of mortal in WoW is also rather lose. We have the immortal dragons that seem to just die and never return. We have previously immortal nightelves that just turned into whisps. We have the load and wild gods that have a rebirth cycle. We have the kinda immortal eternals like Aegwyn and Mediv. Illidan refers to the essence of demons/DH as immortal demon soul. We know jack shit about Titans, but they keep calling us mortals. In fact I pretty much think we only really know what counts as mortals by immortals calling us mortals.

    I mean we could call it normie souls maybe? Non-cosmic entities? The least-hack-written-ones? Either way, I'm pretty sure Blizzard said so themselves.
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    KJ died in the twisting nether, meaning... he's actually dead.
    So accepting the gift of Sargeras makes your soul into a demon soul, regardless of base race??
    KJ (Draenei) --> embraces Fel (Demonic) --> Gets killed --> Perma death
    Kaelthas (Blood Elf) --> embraces Fel (MT) --> Gets killed --> Shadowlands
    Kupo.

  15. #75
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SNES-1990 View Post
    So accepting the gift of Sargeras makes your soul into a demon soul, regardless of base race??
    KJ (Draenei) --> embraces Fel (Demonic) --> Gets killed --> Perma death
    Kaelthas (Blood Elf) --> embraces Fel (MT) --> Gets killed --> Shadowlands
    Kaelthas didn't go as far as Kil'Jaeden did and well he was doing it for much longer. Obviously Kaelthas's soul didn't turn demonic.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance

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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by SNES-1990 View Post
    So accepting the gift of Sargeras makes your soul into a demon soul, regardless of base race??
    KJ (Draenei) --> embraces Fel (Demonic) --> Gets killed --> Perma death
    Kaelthas (Blood Elf) --> embraces Fel (MT) --> Gets killed --> Shadowlands
    You're forgetting that KJ has been handling Fel directly for 25 millenia. Kael had maybe a few months at most, if that much.

  17. #77
    Warchief Beet's Avatar
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    Nah we won't see any of them. Why would we actually? Shadowlands is our deathly area for Azeroth people. They're from Argus and the Nether.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Beet View Post
    Nah we won't see any of them. Why would we actually? Shadowlands is our deathly area for Azeroth people. They're from Argus and the Nether.
    No, Blizzard already confirmed that the shadowlands are the afterlife of the whole franchise.

    (even if that opens up alot of questions..)
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
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  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Beet View Post
    Nah we won't see any of them. Why would we actually? Shadowlands is our deathly area for Azeroth people. They're from Argus and the Nether.
    Shadowlands are for all mortals, not just Azerothians.

  20. #80
    Over 9000! HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    All these guys have their own afterlife tho. Xe'ra with the Light. KJ with the Twisting Nether (Because he died there, he's now perma dead, which also means no afterlife, so RiP). Argus is at the Seat of the Pantheon still, binding Sargeras with the rest of the pantheon, and N'Zoth's afterlife is with the Void. lol

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