X'era, Argus, Kil'jaedan, N'zoth and co in Shadowlands

[sam86]

Don't worry, you're right. Chronicle is pretty explicit that titans can die.

that actually maybe the only real canon from chronicles, since it is from their own pov
while 99% of wow events happened during time they had no access too, they are 100% at least know what a titan is, since they are after all titans...

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You can still care and make mistakes and obviously they do care.

do they?
why exactly did they make the 'definite' version of lore as they used in marketing and may still even up to chronicles page on amazon, sh8tconned to be from titans pov? and how exactly it is from titans? the only reason who was afk during 99% of wow events, making it impossible for them to be a good source, exact opposite it makes anything said in chronicles is bullsh8t since we know for sure they can't know most of that stuff
what about sh8tcon Battle for Undercity and make the 'super amazing' smart Sylvanas planned that all along? Genius! she planned to get herself killed multiple times and even suicide, without knowing about val'kirs who sacrificed a lot to save her
what about we are 'first mortals' to step in shadowlands? how? big part of how we get to SL in first place is using the shadow priest dagger, while u can twist that DKs who went shadowlands are immortals, there are a minimum of 2 shadow priests who went to shadow lands and back, remove them form lore and it won't make sense, which is the current status anyway
what about making me'dan disappear from lore, yet keep everything he was involved with like entire mage campaign in legion and half of Cho'gall stuff in cata still canon, how? who knows, blizz didn't give a f8ck about explain it
what about entire WoD lore? let's make a 'kool' line about how archimonde remember us from the first fight in MHJ, a fight he shouldn't remember in first place thanks to bronze dragonflight, now all demons are one and same across all realities, but their own boss - Sargeras - is confirmed to be different since each universe has its own titans, what? ah nothing just blizz sh8tting on lore for lols

Honestly at current lore status, i feel they enjoy ruining it on purpose, we crossed the line of mistakes to ruining on purpose by miles, and they refuse to acknowledge anything, do u remember they said that WoD lore will be explained in Chronicles and we have to wait and see? it wasn't answered in 1st one, or 2nd, or 3rd, and they have no plan to publish 4th heh

[Belloc]

The shadowlands are for souls of mortals

Are we considering Cenarius a mortal? Or just an exception?

[Magical Mudcrab]

We should get back onto topic. Wonder if we'll see Argus or Xe'ra in shadowlands.

Probably not for Argus. Chronicle seems to imply that when a titan dies, they're just dead. There's no mention of the Shadowlands or any life thereafter, Chronicle states that Norgannon staved off oblivion. This could be a literary choice, oblivion might just be used in place of death or some hereafter, but if we take the statement as being literal, then titans have no afterlife.

[plz delete account]

Oh yeah so they did, who knows then I suppose

I wanna know what happens to the living - are we having some broken shore type deal where all the leaders mount an attack on ICC and something very bad happens? Do we get any help from the living in the shadowlands or is it literally just us - because if that's the case I think that'll be the first time we as players are alone if that makes sense

We don't really know yet. that stuff hasn't hit Alpha or been discussed definitively yet.

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Probably not for Argus. Chronicle seems to imply that when a titan dies, they're just dead. There's no mention of the Shadowlands or any life thereafter, Chronicle states that Norgannon staved off oblivion. This could be a literary choice, oblivion might just be used in place of death or some hereafter, but if we take the statement as being literal, then titans have no afterlife.

Chronicle, and I hate quoting Pyromancer on this, is supposed to get you to critically think about what it is saying. As someone has me quoted as saying in their sig somewhere on this forum, you need to be able to follow the logic of how the missile knows where it is, because it knows where it isn't, and from where it is and where it isn't, can figure out both where it needs to be, and where it once was.
@FelPlague you need to do a youtube video on how hard folks are getting dunked on in this thread. would make for hilarious commentary and a good "for shits and giggles" upload to make the youtube alg like you slightly more

[Magical Mudcrab]

I don't know why Arthas, who was mind controlled by a trap laid for him by the Dreadlords, and Deathwing, who was mind controlled by the Old Gods, are somehow damned to the Maw, where Kael'thas, who by all accounts WILLINGLY betrayed like 4 different factions, including his own people, only has to go see the Venthyr to have the wickedness punished out of him.

Seems to me the two guys who were converted to evil under great duress are better candidates for 'redemption through suffering' than the guy who repeatedly fucked over the people trying to help him.

So, regarding Arthas, there's two things:
First, Arthas was not mind controlled. Frostmourne took his soul and he was then plagued by Ner'zhul's whispers, but his actions were his own. Even before taking up Frostmourne, Arthas condemned his men to death by burning his fleet's ships and killing the mercenaries that worked for him.
Second, we could arguably forgive all of Arthas' actions as a Deathknight and the questionable actions he took as a Paladin; however, we know from both Chronicle, Wrath, and Rise of the Lich King that Arthas was in full control of his actions. He overcame Ner'zhul and decided to carry out the subsequent attacks on the Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimador, with his end goal being to raise the armies of Azeroth into undeath. Granted, it was because he thought that the unified armies would be more able to guard against the threats to come, such as the Burning Legion or the return of the Old Gods, but he still carried out a calculated genocide against multiple races.

Deathwing, as well, wasn't under a form of mind control. Driven mad, yes, but his actions were still his own. He also caused massive damage to the world through the Cataclysm.

Kael'thas, on the other hand, didn't cause that much damage. Realistically, what did he do?
- He helped Illidan secure Outland and fought alongside him to defeat Magtheridon.
- He attempted, and failed, to destroy the Frozen Throne with Illidan and Vashj.
- He attacked Shattrath after being alienated by Illidan and betrayed by some of his own men.
- He had his forces chase the Draenei in the Exodar to Azeroth.
- He was then "killed" for having allied with the Burning Legion.
- He attacked Silvermoon to steal Mu'ru, who his people had been siphoning power off of like magic vampires.
- He then went to the Magisters Terrace to help orchestrate the summoning of Kil'jaeden, but was killed before that could happen.

The damage Kael'thas caused was minimal. It's not really comparable to Arthas or Deathwing at all.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Are we considering Cenarius a mortal? Or just an exception?

Is cenarius there? Also Ardenweald is clearly a special case, since the way Blizzard described their cycle and the way it interacts with the dream seems to be pretty unique, since all the other covenants are sold as one way streets. I guess the definition of mortal in WoW is also rather lose. We have the immortal dragons that seem to just die and never return. We have previously immortal nightelves that just turned into whisps. We have the load and wild gods that have a rebirth cycle. We have the kinda immortal eternals like Aegwyn and Mediv. Illidan refers to the essence of demons/DH as immortal demon soul. We know jack shit about Titans, but they keep calling us mortals. In fact I pretty much think we only really know what counts as mortals by immortals calling us mortals.

I mean we could call it normie souls maybe? Non-cosmic entities? The least-hack-written-ones? Either way, I'm pretty sure Blizzard said so themselves.

[SNES-1990]

KJ died in the twisting nether, meaning... he's actually dead.

So accepting the gift of Sargeras makes your soul into a demon soul, regardless of base race??
KJ (Draenei) --> embraces Fel (Demonic) --> Gets killed --> Perma death
Kaelthas (Blood Elf) --> embraces Fel (MT) --> Gets killed --> Shadowlands

[Aeluron Lightsong]

So accepting the gift of Sargeras makes your soul into a demon soul, regardless of base race??
KJ (Draenei) --> embraces Fel (Demonic) --> Gets killed --> Perma death
Kaelthas (Blood Elf) --> embraces Fel (MT) --> Gets killed --> Shadowlands

Kaelthas didn't go as far as Kil'Jaeden did and well he was doing it for much longer. Obviously Kaelthas's soul didn't turn demonic.

[huth]

So accepting the gift of Sargeras makes your soul into a demon soul, regardless of base race??
KJ (Draenei) --> embraces Fel (Demonic) --> Gets killed --> Perma death
Kaelthas (Blood Elf) --> embraces Fel (MT) --> Gets killed --> Shadowlands

You're forgetting that KJ has been handling Fel directly for 25 millenia. Kael had maybe a few months at most, if that much.

[Beet]

Nah we won't see any of them. Why would we actually? Shadowlands is our deathly area for Azeroth people. They're from Argus and the Nether.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Nah we won't see any of them. Why would we actually? Shadowlands is our deathly area for Azeroth people. They're from Argus and the Nether.

No, Blizzard already confirmed that the shadowlands are the afterlife of the whole franchise.

(even if that opens up alot of questions..)

[huth]

Nah we won't see any of them. Why would we actually? Shadowlands is our deathly area for Azeroth people. They're from Argus and the Nether.

Shadowlands are for all mortals, not just Azerothians.

[TheFirstOnes]

All these guys have their own afterlife tho. Xe'ra with the Light. KJ with the Twisting Nether (Because he died there, he's now perma dead, which also means no afterlife, so RiP). Argus is at the Seat of the Pantheon still, binding Sargeras with the rest of the pantheon, and N'Zoth's afterlife is with the Void. lol

[plz delete account]

All these guys have their own afterlife tho. Xe'ra with the Light. KJ with the Twisting Nether (Because he died there, he's now perma dead, which also means no afterlife, so RiP). Argus is at the Seat of the Pantheon still, binding Sargeras with the rest of the pantheon, and N'Zoth's afterlife is with the Void. lol

Argus is confirmed dead. N'zoth wasn't just killed, but reoriginated. He probably got shoop'd so hard that the void didn't want to touch him with a pole the size of the milky way. though that last bit is probably just hyperbole on my part, but given blizz's writing this expac, I wouldn't doubt it

[Flutterguy]

I hope this expansion doesn't just become World of Warcraft: 'Member Berries.

[plz delete account]

I hope this expansion doesn't just become World of Warcraft: 'Member Berries.

Member when...

Wipe those smug smiles off your faces. Tempest Keep was merely a setback!

or

Nax'anar was merely a setback!

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I'm calling it now.
We're likely to see X'era, Argus, Kil'jaedan, and possibly at least one of our old god buddies in Shadowlands, since lore states they are well and truly dead...

Well the fact that it was established that the Shadowlands is where mortal souls go would indicated Kil'jaeden would not be there even if his soul somehow surived dying in the/so close to the Twisting Nether, where it was also established that was the only way to permanently kill immortal demon souls.


As seen with the titans, even when they die they somehow come back, and I'm referring to Aggramar. In the lore Sargeras killed Aggramar before 1-shotting the rest of the Pantheon (albeit they saved their souls/spirits) and as we saw in Legion, Aggramar was back. So Argus is most likely not in the Shadowlands... although I would imagine he plays a big part in the role of the Shadowlands existing in the first place.


Come to think of it, I don't think any of the characters you listed would be in the Shadowlands. I think you know that as well.

[Beet]

No, Blizzard already confirmed that the shadowlands are the afterlife of the whole franchise.

(even if that opens up alot of questions..)

That’s ridiculous and really bothersome if that’s the case. It’s also the first thing that I’ve heard in WoW lore and struggled to buy into. Azeroth is one tiny planet out of countless. And ours is one in how many million clones? We saw in WoD there’s alternate timelines. So our Shadowlands just happens to be the one true one that exists across all of the universes? And why would some being that has never even heard of Azeroth who dies on a field five hundred timelines away across seven distant universes end up on Azeroth in our Shadowlands?

I know people will tell me to wait until we see the story before judging but there is no possible way I can think of that this can be explained to make sense.

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Shadowlands are for all mortals, not just Azerothians.

Yet it’s on our tiny planet which is just an egg for a titan. This shit makes less sense than WoDs problems.

[huth]

Yet it’s on our tiny planet which is just an egg for a titan. This shit makes less sense than WoDs problems.

It's not. It's a seperate dimension. There's just a cross-dimensional gateway on Azeroth, not the entire Shadowlands. Illidan didn't drag Argus over to us, either, he just opened a portal there.

I know people will tell me to wait until we see the story before judging but there is no possible way I can think of that this can be explained to make sense.

You'd do well reading the part that's already been told first. You've got some major holes in your knowledge.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Shadowlands is basically not supposed to be seen by mortals. Its supposed to be mostly outside of reality. The fact that Sylvanas well broke the veil is a no no. So no lore fuckery, just...well ignorance.

Don't they go to the Maw? Which is in the Shadowlands?

Yes, most souls are going to the Maw. This includes or at least I think it includes Varok Saurfang.