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  1. #241
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    wait wait wait, you are pro customization, but want all the customization to be meaningless? wtf is this? You just 100% contradicted yourself.
    I want customization to be majorly player-based, not sim based.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Then the encounter designers fucked up
    I'd argue you just fucked up and made a bad descision?

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    I want customization to be majorly player-based, not sim based.
    honestly, wtf are you talking about? You want customisation and decisions, but, you dont want them to matter at all, and now you are flapping on about "sims"? seriously, what are you even trying to say?

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    I want customization to be majorly player-based, not sim based.
    You dont have to sim something where the choice is burst single target damage vs aoe when you know you are going into content with heavy aoe damage.

    Thats where you need to lean on your experience of the dungeon, and your perception of the talent tree.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    I'd argue you just fucked up and made a bad descision?
    I would argue they got exactly what they wanted - decisions and customisation that matters and is impactful in gameplay - and then one post later already regretted that because they realized that would mean there could be less than ideal talents / specs / choices for each given situation.

  6. #246
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    honestly, wtf are you talking about? You want customisation and decisions, but, you dont want them to matter at all, and now you are flapping on about "sims"? seriously, what are you even trying to say?
    I've been consistent throughout the thread, you're just lost. Right now we're talking about talents. In my opinion there are too many throughput rows, too many throughput rows are AoE vs ST, these are easily simmable. I prefer much fewer thoughput rows, more gameplay-changing decisions among throughput talent rows, and more player-driven choice rather than sim-driven. In the end the decision should reflect on your gameplay but not your meter.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    I've been consistent throughout the thread, you're just lost. Right now we're talking about talents. In my opinion there are too many throughput rows, too many throughput rows are AoE vs ST, these are easily simmable. I prefer much fewer thoughput rows, more gameplay-changing decisions among throughput talent rows, and more player-driven choice rather than sim-driven. In the end the decision should reflect on your gameplay but not your meter.
    Why would you sim aoe vs st? If the fight has a lot of aoe, you pick the aoe talent. If it is pure ST, you pick the ST talent.

    customization
    /kʌstəmʌɪˈzeɪʃ(ə)n/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    noun: customisation

    the action of modifying something to suit a particular individual or task.
    "the new software allows customization"
    a modification made to something to suit a particular individual or task.


    if you are not worried about the meter, and prefer the playstyle of the ST talent, USE IT.

  8. #248
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    You dont have to sim something where the choice is burst single target damage vs aoe when you know you are going into content with heavy aoe damage.

    Thats where you need to lean on your experience of the dungeon, and your perception of the talent tree.
    If you know there will be AoE you take the AoE talent, if you know there will be majority ST you take the ST talent. Where is the choice?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Why would you sim aoe vs st? If the fight has a lot of aoe, you pick the aoe talent. If it is pure ST, you pick the ST talent.

    customization
    /kʌstəmʌɪˈzeɪʃ(ə)n/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    noun: customisation

    the action of modifying something to suit a particular individual or task.
    "the new software allows customization"
    a modification made to something to suit a particular individual or task.


    if you are not worried about the meter, and prefer the playstyle of the ST talent, USE IT.
    Choice, not customization. I'm not OP.

  9. #249
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    ClassicPeon
    I'm not sure he actually knows what he is arguing tbh.
    He is talking about some kind of that difference:
    Real choices are binding consequential commitments to a course of action, like buying a house, accepting a job, or casting a vote. However, scientists and forecasters interested in these real choices often settle for measuring hypothetical statements about likely or future choices instead. Hypothetical choices are common in psychology and neuroscience experiments when implementing real choice is impractical or unethical. The relationship between the two types of choices is also conceptually important because complex real choices usually have hypothetical future plans embedded in them. For example, a student might make a real binding choice of a university to attend, planning to major in electrical engineering, but the planned major is itself a hypothetical future choice, at the time of the real university choice.

    The reliance on hypothetical choice data presumes that hypothetical choices are usually good forecasts of actual choices. But saying “We should get married!” is not the same as saying “I do,” which is a legally binding real choice. Furthermore, many studies have found a “hypothetical bias”: people overstate hypothetical valuations and plans compared with carefully matched real choices.
    For myself, to separate one from the other: “real choice” is what I exactly call as choice, and the one that doesn't have far enough consequences is just an option/setting.

    Here&here we talked about something similar, but somewhat for other areas of gameplay. As for the specific area under discussion, it's could be this or some links from it.

    If on the whole topic... yes and no, problem in this case isn't so much in field of activity (PvP/PvE), but in their design, that was originally expect such mockery on systems, something like this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Most evident and obvious present ex.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    The team wants to see more class representation in Mythic + and the MDI and will consider this when adding affixes in the future.
    - it was needless to take into consideration such shitty additions during class design in MoP (as well as in previous expansions), so...
    Technically, what you argue about as part of content is 1. "situational" every second choice + 2. choice that is made within system's work for a fairly long time together (both are parts of one system): 2. is "permanent" not for 1 fight, but for a while before meeting with class trainer together with loosing time and money for "re-qualifies" you (it's class “umbrella”, which consists of full set of class' abilities (mostly permanent completely) and, being overwhelming majority of them passively, talents of build (not spec)) - choice, and 1. cosists of equipped items (= characteristics) + particular using spells during encounter - flexible options. So called "borrowed powers" in their current execution fall out of system, damage it by violating hierarchical sequence.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2021-03-09 at 09:20 AM.
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  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    If you know there will be AoE you take the AoE talent, if you know there will be majority ST you take the ST talent. Where is the choice?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Choice, not customization. I'm not OP.
    Read what you are replying to - the choice is absolutely 100% still there. If you CHOOSE to focus on doing the most dmg possible, that is YOUR CHOICE. If you choose to play a build you enjoy, that is also YOUR CHOICE.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    If you know there will be AoE you take the AoE talent, if you know there will be majority ST you take the ST talent. Where is the choice?
    That literally is the choise. Based on experience and dynamics. Do you take the aoe talent because its mythic+ and thats generally a good idea. Or does your group already have 2 DH's and its a tyrannical week?

    Thats choice

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    He is talking about some kind of that difference:

    For myself, to separate one from the other: “real choice” is what I exactly call as choice, and the one that doesn't have far enough consequences is just an option/setting.

    Here&here we talked about something similar, but somewhat for other areas of gameplay. As for the specific area under discussion, it's could be this or some links from it.

    If on the whole topic... yes and no, problem in this case isn't so much in field of activity (PvP / PvE), but in their design, that was originally expect such mockery on systems, something like this:
    Permamnent choice is a different thing, equally interesting imo. Both are choices

  12. #252
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Read what you are replying to - the choice is absolutely 100% still there. If you CHOOSE to focus on doing the most dmg possible, that is YOUR CHOICE. If you choose to play a build you enjoy, that is also YOUR CHOICE.
    And if I choose to go into a raid with nothing equipped that's also my "choice." It's a slippery slope argument. You have a cookie cutter for every situation. If you at all care about your performance, you have no choice.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    And if I choose to go into a raid with nothing equipped that's also my "choice." It's a slippery slope argument. You have a cookie cutter for every situation. If you at all care about your performance, you have no choice.
    its about discerning what you need for that situation.

    There can never be a choice of throughput that isnt statisticly better. So in your perspective the only choices we could have in a talent row would be cosmetive

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    In the end the decision should reflect on your gameplay but not your meter.
    Impossible to do with how RPGs naturally are. But they could actually add more variance to the style of ST and AoE you choose in the same row.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    And if I choose to go into a raid with nothing equipped that's also my "choice." It's a slippery slope argument. You have a cookie cutter for every situation. If you at all care about your performance, you have no choice.
    Slippery slope is a fallacy. Try again.

    Secondly, you claimed just a few posts up this was about choice, NOT performance.

  16. #256
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    its about discerning what you need for that situation.

    There can never be a choice of throughput that isnt statisticly better. So in your perspective the only choices we could have in a talent row would be cosmetive
    Or utility, like I said earlier talent rows should have as few throughput rows as possible. They are the enemy of choice. At the very least they would be a more interesting and balance-able choice if they were all ST or AoE and offered impactful gameplay changes instead of the uninspired passives we have now.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Or utility, like I said earlier talent rows should have as few throughput rows as possible. They are the enemy of choice. At the very least they would be a more interesting and balance-able choice if they were all ST or AoE and offered impactful gameplay changes instead of the uninspired passives we have now.
    More choice restricts choice. Interesting.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Or utility, like I said earlier talent rows should have as few throughput rows as possible. They are the enemy of choice. At the very least they would be a more interesting and balance-able choice if they were all ST or AoE and offered impactful gameplay changes instead of the uninspired passives we have now.
    Then you are going away from RPG and towards literal boring choices. At least for me, when i get to the utility choices, they have an impact but they are boring and i dont really care. They dont affect my rotation and my general playstyle. Which is what i want.

  19. #259
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Slippery slope is a fallacy. Try again.

    Secondly, you claimed just a few posts up this was about choice, NOT performance.
    Slippery slope is very real. Throughput choices directly tie in with your performance, so what's the issue?

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Slippery slope is very real. Throughput choices directly tie in with your performance, so what's the issue?
    No, it's not. It's a logical fallacy.

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