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  1. #1

    PvP is the sole reason why Gameplay Customization still exists in this game. Wrong?

    As you know, the gameplay customization portion of WoW has evolved into what we have today.

    Because when Mathed out, spreadsheeted and after several famous Blizzard Philosophers used their brilliant minds, the conclusions were:

    -You are either playing the game right or the game wrong in PvE
    -Illusion of choice
    -People mostly search up the best build in Icy Veins so there is no point
    -Cookie Cutter

    I completely agree this is the case specifically for PvE in WoW

    So if "there is no point" and "is all an illusion" why do we still have gameplay customization in the game?
    PvP

    Wrong? Right? What do you think?

    My question to you is:
    -Is there any other possible way we can tackle this "view" on gameplay customization for WoW's PvE?

    --------------

    edit:

    My OP, in case you didnt notice, was a critique to how the gameplay customization evolved (talents etc)
    And a critique to the mentality behind it.

    Because after the many spreadsheets Blizzard run they reached the conclusion "gameplay customization is switching talents before a fight to optimize"
    And i dont agree.

    Covenants in Shadowlands literally make Blizzard on my side about ^^this^^ part of my opinion. They are trying to save the RPG genre.

    Funny image:
    Last edited by Shadoowpunk; 2020-05-07 at 05:47 PM.

  2. #2
    Banned Venziir's Avatar
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    WoW PvP? You mean that mistreated, constantly ignored, oddlooking redhaired stepchild who lives under the staircase? Oh please....

  3. #3
    There is no one build for everything. You have builds for AoE, ST, specific situation, talents that don't affect your DPS/HPS/Tanking at all.

    There will always be a best choice for every piece of content as long as you can choose. But it is not the same for every situation.

    Needed maybe. Fun definitively. I can change how my class plays as i see fit.

    Example: Starlord for Moonkins. Best talent DPS wise in nearly EVERY situtation. But you have to keep track of something which is not everyones cup of tea. You can use Incarantion. Not as good but it won't completely devalue your DPS an maybe is even better in certain Burst situations.

    PvP has more variety, true. But the games also differ way more from match too match. than say.. bosses in a dungeon.

    People who min/max mostly like it. I can change how i play according to the situation. I won't be best in every situation, but sufficiently ok most of the time. Take that away now and the game will feel stale.
    People who don't like it don't do it and don't have to unless they want to take part in content where you have to do it because every little bit counts.

    The "new" talent trees gave us an option in the first place. The old ones i never touched except when is was the druid who had to buff this month so i had to put my points into MotW.

    Could you get rid of it? Probably. Would not change much. Would be easier to balance probably. But then you could get rid of gear too.
    But that is the RPG part of the MMOrpg. There never was much rpg in the game and never really will be when it comes to abilitys.
    (not commenting on SL here, there are threads for that)

  4. #4
    No. If you actually go and look talent builds on Icy Veins, there are many 2/3 or even 3/3 valid choices. And if you think about the majority of playerbase who don't do Mythic raiding or high keys - you can choose what you like or what is convenient for you. I see people switch talents all the time in Normal and Heroic and they're totally fine, I do this myself and it feels fun and rewarding - optimizing using my common sense (even if I know I'm not good at all). Besides that we have leveling and world quests and other generic f.ing around PvE-wise - that's actually a big part of the game - having a couple of terrible, but fun talents is good.

    It's the same with, say, TCG, why do you have weak cards if everyone just go and get a decklist on the Net?

  5. #5
    theres always going to be the best talent for a given situation. The problem is that if all talents are equal, then it doesnt matter what you pick and it gets called illusion of choice and if one is better than the others, it just gets called illusion of choice.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    theres always going to be the best talent for a given situation. The problem is that if all talents are equal, then it doesnt matter what you pick and it gets called illusion of choice and if one is better than the others, it just gets called illusion of choice.
    quite the conundrum, yes, seems to be the case...i dont even think there is a solution here. Could be wrong

  7. #7
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    WoW PvP? You mean that mistreated, constantly ignored, oddlooking redhaired stepchild who lives under the staircase? Oh please....
    Exactly!

    PvP in most cases in WoW isn't much more than a afterthought but recently been seeing posts claiming WoW is PvP-centric and balanced around PvP, and I'm like meme levels of "Whhhhaaaaa"?
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    WoW PvP? You mean that mistreated, constantly ignored, oddlooking redhaired stepchild who lives under the staircase? Oh please....
    50% nerf to all azerite traits...never forget...how much they dont care

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Exactly!

    PvP in most cases in WoW isn't much more than a afterthought but recently been seeing posts claiming WoW is PvP-centric and balanced around PvP, and I'm like meme levels of "Whhhhaaaaa"?
    Ofcourse i agree PvP is the bastard child of WoW...ofcourse!
    But...why? Why do we still have gameplay customziation today?

    I think, imo, is because of it.

    Why else?

    The PvE experience continuously says "is all an illusion" and just switching talents before a pull became the "answer" for PvE

  9. #9
    Banned Venziir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Exactly!

    PvP in most cases in WoW isn't much more than a afterthought but recently been seeing posts claiming WoW is PvP-centric and balanced around PvP, and I'm like meme levels of "Whhhhaaaaa"?
    I mean sure, if people enjoy WoW PvP - by all means, go fucking apeshit and camp those graveyards and what not, but come on... We all know it's the ultimate afterthought, no reason to kid yourself.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    I mean sure, if people enjoy WoW PvP - by all means, go fucking apeshit and camp those graveyards and what not, but come on... We all know it's the ultimate afterthought, no reason to kid yourself.
    Then why do we still have gameplay customization today?
    If WoW's PvE scene evolved into "is all an illusion bro" we just need to switch talents for AoE or single target.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Then why do we still have gameplay customization today?
    If WoW's PvE scene evolved into "is all an illusion bro" we just need to switch talents for AoE or single target.
    I'm going to get flagged for this, but it needs to be said.

    You're retarded. 100%

    You're questioning.... WHY... we have game-play customization, in an MMORPG? The entire basis of this game is to have choices in how your character looks, what class you play, what build you do for your character, whether you tank, dps or heal. And even more choices within those factors. The game-play customization is crucial to the game. Without it, no one would play. Name a single MMORPG, that doesn't have some or all of these elements.

    You want WoW to be black, not black or white, just black. No choice, here is your mage, you're all the same. Here is your paladin, all the same. It would never happen.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by agentsi View Post
    I'm going to get flagged for this, but it needs to be said.

    You're retarded. 100%

    You're questioning.... WHY... we have game-play customization, in an MMORPG? The entire basis of this game is to have choices in how your character looks, what class you play, what build you do for your character, whether you tank, dps or heal. And even more choices within those factors. The game-play customization is crucial to the game. Without it, no one would play. Name a single MMORPG, that doesn't have some or all of these elements.

    You want WoW to be black, not black or white, just black. No choice, here is your mage, you're all the same. Here is your paladin, all the same. It would never happen.
    LoL, cant you see im critiquing the PvE scene of WoW and how they are destroying everything RPG in WoW? Are you blind?
    You think im here to destroy Gameplay Customization?

    rofl

    Im here critiquing the whole scene because is destroying gameplay customization.

  13. #13
    Banned Venziir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Then why do we still have gameplay customization today?
    If WoW's PvE scene evolved into "is all an illusion bro" we just need to switch talents for AoE or single target.
    Lay of the drugs my man, you are taking the idea of reaching to a whole new level!

  14. #14
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    50% nerf to all azerite traits...never forget...how much they dont care

    - - - Updated - - -



    Ofcourse i agree PvP is the bastard child of WoW...ofcourse!
    But...why? Why do we still have gameplay customziation today?

    I think, imo, is because of it.

    Why else?

    The PvE experience continuously says "is all an illusion" and just switching talents before a pull became the "answer" for PvE
    Why? Well Ion was big on raiding so the game is raid and mythic centered.

    The illusion thing...then it's the same for PvE though...it's a illusion of choice. For both PvE and PvP you have the best choices and a lot just go with that because honestly it's probably the smart choice. Not many in either area go to customize their character how they want it...they just go for the best choice.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Lay of the drugs my man, you are taking the idea of reaching to a whole new level!
    You posted 3 times on this thread
    Your posts say absolutely NOTHING, nada.

    You came here and said "You crazy bro, lol" 3 times.

    Thanks for sharing

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    As you know, the gameplay customization portion of WoW has evolved into what we have today.

    Because when Mathed out, spreadsheeted and after several famous Blizzard Philosophers used their brilliant minds, the conclusions were:

    -You are either playing the game right or the game wrong in PvE
    -Illusion of choice
    -People mostly search up the best build in Icy Veins so there is no point
    -Cookie Cutter

    I completely agree this is the case specifically for PvE in WoW

    So if "there is no point" and "is all an illusion" why do we still have gameplay customization in the game?
    PvP

    Wrong? Right? What do you think?

    My question to you is:
    -Is there any other possible way we can tackle this "view" on gameplay customization for WoW's PvE?

    Funny image:
    you can still pvp in retail wow?

  17. #17
    If min/maxers had their way there wouldn't be specs at all, just cosmetic options like...what color your spells are or something. I haven't PvP'd in a long time because Blizzard seems sick of balancing it or offering any sort of reward to anyone who isn't an arena junkie. So are there really options in PvP, too? Or is it like PvE and everyone plays the same classes/comps/builds because it's been predetermined to be the "best"?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dazmalak View Post
    If min/maxers had their way there wouldn't be specs at all, just cosmetic options like...what color your spells are or something. I haven't PvP'd in a long time because Blizzard seems sick of balancing it or offering any sort of reward to anyone who isn't an arena junkie. So are there really options in PvP, too? Or is it like PvE and everyone plays the same classes/comps/builds because it's been predetermined to be the "best"?
    My friend...the customization options are so scarce because of min maxer mentality that brought us to what we have today.
    Is just not wroth it.
    Play other games if you want to PvP.

    Casual random Battleground scene seems to be good in Guild Wars 2 since you can simply create a new character and experience the max level PvP at any time.

  19. #19
    Bloodsail Admiral MORGATH99's Avatar
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    no one cares about pvp
    my warrior : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rgath/advanced

    MY RIG : I9 9900 K / EVGA 2080 TI / ASROCK PHANTOM GAMING Z390 / 32 GB DDR4 T FORCE PHANTOM GAMING / CRUCIAL MX500 1 TB SSD / SAMSUNG MONITOR 49" QLED SUPER WIDESCREEN 32:9 3840 x 1080 p 144 HZ 1 MS / ANTEC HCG 1000 W PSU / DARK ROCK PRO 4 AIR COOLING SYSTEM

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    You posted 3 times on this thread
    Your posts say absolutely NOTHING, nada.

    You came here and said "You crazy bro, lol" 3 times.

    Thanks for sharing
    Not you again with a pointless thread.

    I'm gonna counter your grade S+ research into the subject with one simple question:

    Can you name a single one week period in the game's life cycle that did not have a "best build" for a given situation for any given spec?
    You are so desperate for your idea of "customization" you fail to notice that EVER since Classic the game has been min-maxed to the absolute core.
    Look up a Classic raid team right now. Then look at their talents.

    Oh, you can spend 41 or so point in a talent system?
    That talent system was 5 times more set in stone than talents today.
    Nowadays people actually change their talents when they adjust for any piece of content.

    Calm the f down already.

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