How can loot even work without warforging/similar systems?

[munkeyinorbit]

How is that problem solved? Now you run endless dungeons to receive nothing.

I'm pretty sure their intention is to make loot harder to get outside of raids and possibly m+.

Unless your doing mythic raiding it is inefficient to gear up doing raids. People do it because mythic+ sucks for them. They will not be nerfing raid gear at all unless they decide to load each boss with far too much loot. It would be a nightmare if they decide that each boss has a possibility to drop 5 items. You know that most of it will be trash.

- - - Updated - - -

Exactly, plus you have people with 15+ ilvls above the content doing normal/hc raids just to fish for the titanforge procs so even harder to get in pugs

No, the issue is the way loot is spread. Weapons and trinkets being early in the raid means that geared assholes are only there for that early boss. Why invite that guy 10 ilvls higher than the raid loot when you know he will leave right after the first or second boss? If people were smart they would only invite people who actually needed the gear or are of like mind. People are not smart.

[facefist]

Same way it worked in classic?

While I personally hate wf/tf, posts like this are not very useful. It's a different game and I really doubt people would be willing to to back into 2-4 drops per boss for 40 people, and dungeons that would be pretty much useless after the initial gearing.

What worked back then doesnt mean it would work now. Wf/tf is not the solution, but going back to vanilla style system doesnt sound very good either. With m+ in the game, there needs to be some sort of system that incentives for a more long-term investment in the content.

[munkeyinorbit]

It won't work. Loot being loot is going to be a big mistake. Why would i possibly keep playing when there is nothing more to hunt for before next tier ?
The people who cried about this is the ones who couldn't get anymore upgrades, aka mythic players or people who had bad luck on or didn't play enough to get the upgrades. And now everyone else who was fine with tf/wf is getting fucked for it. I think this is one of those things that gonna pull the most players away from the game between patches. Since there is no incentive to keep playing after getting your bis

The game actually being bad is what drove people away from bfa.

Classes feeling incomplete, clunky and unfun.
Alts being difficult to make competitive until recently.
Mistakes with the way azerite gear worked.
Heroic raid gear being handed out like candy.
BIS gear that was better than mythic raid gear being part of a grind in the easiest type of content.
Bringing back the legendary system of legion and copying it with corruption.
Making classes unusable unless the grinded out esscences in game modes people don't like playing.

The titanforging part of the game is one of the smallest concerns players had with the game. You can tell because opinions are divided on it. Bfa showed that the game has massive issues and ion making a statement like "we want gear just to be gear" is just a smoke screen to obscure from the real problems wow has.

I would also like to point out that ion also said "we think ilvl should be the biggest factor when it comes to gear". He has said this twice before 2 expansions.

THEN WHY AM I DOING HEROIC RAIDING WITH A FUCKING 410 RING AND A 415 TRINKET?

I bet nothing changes. TF will just be moved elsewhere and affect our power in another way. It's a smart bet considering the lies ion tells us.

[Cathfaern]

The game actually being bad is what drove people away from bfa.

Classes feeling incomplete, clunky and unfun.
Alts being difficult to make competitive until recently.
Mistakes with the way azerite gear worked.
Heroic raid gear being handed out like candy.
BIS gear that was better than mythic raid gear being part of a grind in the easiest type of content.
Bringing back the legendary system of legion and copying it with corruption.
Making classes unusable unless the grinded out esscences in game modes people don't like playing.

The biggest problem is the first point. If classes are fun to play (you are having fun for some reason when you are in combat) then people will play no matter what. If you have fun in combat then every content is not about "ok, how much do I have to struggle for the reward?", but "yeah, having fun and also getting reward". Of course the combat in an MMO always will be in the bit boring side, which is not liked by everyone. But the question still comes: how fluid the combat feels? If it fluid, then well yes it's boring but at least it's painless boring. If it's clunky then it's not just boring but even painful. This is the worst, and most class in BfA feel like this.

[PenguinChan]

I'm hoping they reintroduce ilvl upgrades to gear with a badge system of some kind - so you can get your BiS gear for your spec, then you upgrade it over time without having to worry or hope for a WF / TF proc. Then after that - I hope they reintroduce the corruption system but with choices and actually having the chance to pick and choose what you get / have. I honestly hate the RNG system but the systems themselves are nice when you have direct control.

[froschhure]

Bis list is a sad autism mechanism. I love Wf and I love tf. Raids should remove lfr, normal, hc, myth and simply go raid+

The game needs its vivity back and you will not get that by splitting the game into Even more layers. But since there is no information but this whine thread about ilvl, I won’t go any further.

[slime]

lol. wtf? The way it did for most of WoW's existence you mean?

[kamuimac]

While I personally hate wf/tf, posts like this are not very useful. It's a different game and I really doubt people would be willing to to back into 2-4 drops per boss for 40 people, and dungeons that would be pretty much useless after the initial gearing.

What worked back then doesnt mean it would work now. Wf/tf is not the solution, but going back to vanilla style system doesnt sound very good either. With m+ in the game, there needs to be some sort of system that incentives for a more long-term investment in the content.

why not ? if it manages to finally kill raiding once and for all it will be only beneficial for game in long run .

1 expansion to skip is small price to pay for it.

- - - Updated - - -

It won't work. Loot being loot is going to be a big mistake. Why would i possibly keep playing when there is nothing more to hunt for before next tier ?
The people who cried about this is the ones who couldn't get anymore upgrades, aka mythic players or people who had bad luck on or didn't play enough to get the upgrades. And now everyone else who was fine with tf/wf is getting fucked for it. I think this is one of those things that gonna pull the most players away from the game between patches. Since there is no incentive to keep playing after getting your bis

it will - but blizzard gotta get hurt financialy else they wont respond.

last time it happened was in WoD - and loosing 5 mln players x 10 $ x 21 months is why they put TF in game.

this time will be exackly the same.

- - - Updated - - -

God these people are clowns.

Y'all act like the game wasn't at it's most popular EVER without warforging. Soon as they started adding shit systems to the game (Warforging, pathfinder, etc.) the MMORPG crowd peaced out.

Doofuses at Activision tried to make an MMO that appealed to general audiences (not possible) instead of continuing to dominate their niche.

you mean that game that lost over 90% of people who tried it before end of Cata ?

ye it was such growing succes

attrition rate for wow was always beyond horrible.

- - - Updated - - -

What's wrong with being done with something? What's wrong with being done with a patch and only log on to raid?

because unlike you other people enjoy playing the game. instead being done within a week and having nothing to do for next 6 months besides logging in once a week to raid.

now those people will just have to unsub .

[Laughingjack]

why not ? if it manages to finally kill raiding once and for all it will be only beneficial for game in long run .

1 expansion to skip is small price to pay for it.

- - - Updated - - -



it will - but blizzard gotta get hurt financialy else they wont respond.

last time it happened was in WoD - and loosing 5 mln players x 10 $ x 21 months is why they put TF in game.

this time will be exackly the same.

- - - Updated - - -



you mean that game that lost over 90% of people who tried it before end of Cata ?

ye it was such growing succes

attrition rate for wow was always beyond horrible.

- - - Updated - - -



because unlike you other people enjoy playing the game. instead being done within a week and having nothing to do for next 6 months besides logging in once a week to raid.

now those people will just have to unsub .

I honestly think it would be better if these people unsubbed. Catering to them has costed wow millions if its more invested players for people who honestly would enjoy playing cookie clicker more then wow.

[exochaft]

lol. wtf? The way it did for most of WoW's existence you mean?

Yeah, people tend to forget that WF/TF did not operate in a vacuum, and neither did loot when WF/TF hadn't been implemented yet.

I still remember back in Cataclysm where I went almost two full raid tiers w/o getting a tier helm upgrade (I got a normal tier helm the in the first weeks of BWD, got a heroic helm from FL the week before the DS raid went live). People automatically think you're going to get your BiS immediately, but that's not necessarily the case in a world w/o WF/TF. Heck, there were even vendors back then where you could spend JP/VP for gear to fill in certain slots of gear because you could go a long time w/o getting gear to drop. PvP vendors helped to some degree, as well.

There were other systems that were implemented along the way that helped bridge the gap of gear. For example, someone mentioned they'd be fine with this system coming back: upgrading gear up to two times using currency. It was basically a built-in WF system that still promoted going to the next level of content difficulty but allowed you some room for growth by repeating the same content if you needed the gear boost. Even the first implementation of the WF/TF system did not exceed or even equal the ilvl of the next highest difficulty, so gear that you obtained in normal raids could proc higher ilvls but would still be inferior to a baseline heroic item.

How will loot work w/o WF/TF? Just fine as it had in the past. In fact, the past loot systems in conjunctions with other gear systems felt quite a bit more rewarding and deterministic than the severe amount of randomness of gear power that we get currently. The major flaw with the WF/TF system (as well as the corruption system in general) is that it's all random and the players can do nothing if they're unlucky, and even the old systems had bad luck protection via other gearing systems despite the loot system having much less RNG attached to it.

[kaminaris]

Again, this is 10 times worse with dynamic gear. If you join 2 months late, that is 2 months late you are on lucky procs compared to everyone else.

Dynamic gear also encourages people from higher gear levels to play content where the only loot they can get is lucky procs, further screwing over the player joining 2 months late.

Yes, the person joining 2 months late will always be behind the curve. This is the natural result of having a progression system. Your assertion that static gear makes this worse is however completely absurd. It is obvious that static gear is far better than dynamic gear in this regard.

Again, nope. Think carefully. With lucky procs you can literally do some more lower tier M+ like 5-7-9-12-13 and gear you way till max.
With static gear It. Is. NOT. Possible.

You are absolutely wrong, you cannot outgear it faster than weekly chest lets you.
And for that to happen with titanforging you basically need to get +10 proc. Not even need to count on titanforging.

So yet again:
With WF/TF:
You do 10 dungeons a week ~ilvl boost +1-5
You do 100 dungeons a week ~ilvl boos +3-10

Without TF
You do 10 dungeons a week ~ilvl boost 5/16 or 10/16 (assuming you can chose exact upgrade) = 0.3-0.6 ilvl
You do 100 dungeons a week ~ilvl boost 5/16 or 10/16 (assuming you can chose exact upgrade) = 0.3-0.6 ilvl
You do 1000 dungeons a week ~ilvl boost 5/16 or 10/16 (assuming you can chose exact upgrade) = 0.3-0.6 ilvl

[Thirtyrock]

removing warforged gear will help to streamline the gearing process and focus on one difficulty. i dont see the fun when progressing in heroic or mythic difficult and have to clear one below because there is a chance to get a item as or even more powerful as in the higher difficulty. As an altoholic it will also give me more time for other chars. Next step would be to remove the rewards from world quests that make normal raiding difficulty obsolete. got all of my chars in BFA to almost heroic raiding equip with outdoor content and worldbosses. Kinda removes the MM of the MMORPG and feels like a single player game.

THIS!!!!

I'm in a newly formed guild that is progressing in Heroic. Normal and even LFR can still upgrade some of my slots if I get a Lucky TF/WF/Corrpution. Since I have very little corruption gear, despite being almost completely geared out of normal, I feel obligated to run these, since my DPS is so far behind my similar ilvl guild mates who DO have corruption gear.

I don't mind doing the content multiple times, as I just enjoy it and am still learning a new class/role (just came back to the game and switched from protadin to warlock for the first time ever). But I know that, once I'm competent at my class, I won't want to keep running the same (but much easier) content in the hopes of an upgrade.

I enjoyed Wrath, Cata & Mop, when you could say "yes I can still get upgrades out of normal" or "No, there is nothing I need from normal" or whatever difficulty you want to talk about. I enjoyed knowing, for sure, that I had BIS and could pass on any and all loot that dropped for my class for that slot or even the entire tier. I enjoyed gearing up my guild mates so we could continue to progress and focus on next tier.

Of course, I also didn't mind not getting loot, even if it was an upgrade, because it was going to someone else who it was their BIS. They would not need another item in that slot for the rest of the tier, so I could know I was going to get the next one (or another plate wearer), regardless of what it was.

Personally, I don't play the game for upgrades, I play for progression. Removing randomized drops helps incentivize progression over loot farming.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with titanforging wasn't the system itself, but poor balancing and it was on top of other systems that are already heavily RNG based. If secondary stats were devalued and primary stats increased in value so that item level wasn't a meaningless metric for most classes TF wouldn't have been nearly as grating for most people. The issue really stems from things like sockets being worth 10 or 15 ilevels for most specs, and poorly itemized gear not being a throughput upgrade despite being heavier in your primaries. Few things feel worse than getting an item out of your weekly chest that should be a substantial upgrade, but because you're wearing a piece that has a socket/corruption and a top secondary stat is a net performance loss. Now have that happen 3 or 4 weeks in a row and its enough to get people to quit the game.

These are good points!
Knowing which items had which stats, sockets, etc. meant that you could always compare item a with item b and come out with the same answer.

- - - Updated - - -

- - - Updated - - -

It's great, players want deterministic rewards, not some fucking lottery system where 20% of my dps is made up of lucky corruption rolls of which the player has no fucking agency

I don't mind corruption as a one-off, but it's a shit long-term system so im glad to see it go

Corruption/WF would be a great thing to add to hard modes as one-offs. Sure, there's mythic, but if you do XYZ on this boss you can get gear that has additional powers. Pseudo legendary items...

- - - Updated - - -

If everyone does this you are going to run into problems maintaining your party/raid roster?

As players get their best in slot for the tier they go away and do something else. After a few people leave you no longer have enough people to fill out groups and so if you are one of the guys who didn't get BiS tough shit better luck next tier?

How many people are genuinely going to look forward to running raids when they know they are absolutely never going to get any drops or anything useful from that content?

None of the guilds I played with did that. I wouldn't want to be in a guild that did that.

When a player got BIS for any given item, or for their full set, we were all excited for them and they were excited to help the next players. We were focused on progression, not personal gratification for gear.

- - - Updated - - -

The only people that have issues with WF/TF are people that can’t control themselves, mindless parrots that repeat their masters, or those entirely too anal about their performance in raids.

A definite BiS list is boring. It’s much more exciting to be able to try your best with whatever you receive. You know what items/stats you need, so chase them however you can. WF/TF only aids you in that process.

You get that pair of gloves you need, and hey nice, it upgraded +25iLvls. That helps to offset the pair of pants you just can’t get to drop.

The only negatives to this system, apply directly to people who just can’t control themselves and set a goal for themselves that isn’t “THE BEST”. With WF/TF, the goal isn’t supposed to be “THE BEST”, it’s supposed to be “THE BEST YOU CAN BE”.

The only people that problem applies to are those who care entirely too much about their performance in raids. If you’re good and you know what you’re doing, the boss is going to die regardless of how many WF/TF procs you received.

I’ve met a lot of people, geared higher than me, performing much worse than me blaming it on corruptions, or not having the right gear.

When upon inspection, they’re using the wrong Azerite traits, essences, talents, gems, enchants, they don’t understand their rotation... but yet, it’s the corruptions fault they’re underperforming by 60%.

It blew my mind when I saw a BM hunter pass on a BoE crit/haste ring with a socket “because it has leech, that’s not very good for hunters.”

I don't mind WF/TF so much, but Corruption is a nightmare in my opinion.
Almost all of my gear is from normal, at this point, and my guild is progressing into Heroic. The problem is, I'm bottom DPS for the sole reason that I have virtually no corruption gear and the corruption I DO have is virtually worthless. Similarly geared DPS are doing WAY more damage than me due to corruption items. I can out play iLvl discrepancies, I can't outplay some of the corruption effects. And the difference isn't linear, it's exponential. someone with a couple of good corruption effects do more than twice my damage, add significant ilvl discrepancies and they're doing 4x my damage.

That's what bothers me about the concept.

WF/TF bother me because I DO enjoy finishing a tier. I enjoy knowing I don't need anything else and that any improvements in my performance for the rest of the tier come solely from my PERFORMANCE, not a lucky roll on a WF/TF.

- - - Updated - - -

Some of the people in this thread are beyond deluded. "BiS gear in less than a month kek". Show me your characters pre Legion that had BiS gear?! Yes you cant since you never had one. You are acting like everyone will be running around with BiS gear within a month of raid tier, when in reality, there will be less than 1% people capable of obtaining it, and only in last tier that lasts for like a year.

Absolutely true!

WAY back in Wrath I managed to get BIS during TOC, which, frankly, just went on for EVER. Despite months of progression followed by multiple full Heroic clears of ICC, I never had full BIS.

[Milfshaked]

Again, nope. Think carefully. With lucky procs you can literally do some more lower tier M+ like 5-7-9-12-13 and gear you way till max.
With static gear It. Is. NOT. Possible.

No, first of all, that is literally not possible.

Secondly, dynamic gear puts you even further behind others as others had a longer time to get lucky. Your starting point is objectively worse than with static gear.

Also when factoring in how it encourages player of higher gear level to do lower gear level content for chance of lucky procs, it puts you relatively further behind the curve as it inflates the amount of overgeared people doing content.

You are absolutely wrong, you cannot outgear it faster than weekly chest lets you.
And for that to happen with titanforging you basically need to get +10 proc. Not even need to count on titanforging.:

That has nothing to do with dynamic gear. You are now for some reason instead talking about timegating the quantity of loot of a certain iLvL. This is not relevant to the topic. Weekly chests and raid lockouts(which are basically a more complicated version of weekly chests) could be discussed, but it has no relevance here.

So yet again:

Congrulations, you can pull random numbers that makes no sense out of your ass.

[Thirtyrock]

So completely not true.

In Vanilla the content was easy but players were new. So most people spent half the expansion just learning how to play and raid.

In TBC raiding had found its groove but most players started to realise that progression was basically impossible for anyone except the tiny minority at the top. By the end of TBC most raiders either quit or were close to quitting.

In WotLK and Cata they used raid nerfs to ensure steady progression.

By MoP they started introducing forging, continuing through to today.


Whether or not you like the systems, this game needs a mechanism to ensure that, over time, players get closer to beating content. And honestly, I still believe that TF/WF is the best they have come up with so far. It's certainly a lot better than nerfing raid content.

By far the worst raiding experience I have had thus far was the first tier of Cataclysm. My guild at the time hit a brick wall on heroic Valiona and Theralion. And it was like that - no one advancing in gear, and continuing to wipe deep into the fight, for 6 weeks. Raiding stopped being fun, people were starting to fight with other, and it was definitely the start of the guild falling apart entirely. And when they nerfed the content (because presumably we were not the only ones in this situation) it didn't solve anything. We one shot the boss easily on the first post-nerf attempt and it felt utterly hollow. I can guarantee that a WF/TF system back then would have made a huge positive difference for us because we would have earned the gear necessary to give us the slight nudge we desperately needed to get over that hurdle.

No, of course you don't. But it does certainly helps by ensuring that content never becomes pointless.

I think these are good points. My solution would be a currency that can be used to purchase gear and/or gear ilvl upgrades. Once you have the BIS items, you could still upgrade them with currency over time.

[Novaice]

yes. we remember

thing is back then mythic + with infinite loot didnt exist

meaning you will be "deterministicaly " geared up in 3 days by spamming only keys you need.

and then you have literaly nothing to do in game unless you plan to progress mythic raid.

in order to recreat it they would have to remove loot from mythic + completly - and i think that they will do that - they are just to scared to announce it atm

realistically, they should treat m+ like plain mythics.

loot on first run for each dungeon(only if rolled), use a currency on any run after for that dungeon.
highest runned mythic+ counts towards weekly chest.
they basically need to limit m+ loot output.

[Thirtyrock]

Take that and combine it with Cloak progression, essences, and corruption, and i have no idea why i new player would even ALMOST want to touch this game. I sure wouldnt.. Even if i quite for a few months and came back mid patch i wouldnt want to play this game.. There is way too much to do to catch up.. I dont even know that you ever truly could catch up when you take account corruptions.

As someone who just returned I feel this hard.

I've managed to get back into a raiding guild, and geared relatively quickly, at least in respect to ilvl. I don't have time to run Raids & Mythic Plus & farm Horrific Visions to try to grab that corrupted gear.

I can do a little of it all, but not all of it. And ANY of those things could drop an ilvl increase and several of them could drop corrupted pieces. The fact I don't have any good corruption means I'm bottom DPS, despite being similar in ilvl to others in the raid. I can't improve much by focusing on performance compared to farming for that corrupted gear...

- - - Updated - - -

This is my feeling exactly. People complaining "there is no BiS, or I have to farm old content for a 0.1% chance to get my BiS" are the problem. There's a simple solution: assume WF/TF doesn't exist. There, now you have a BiS to shoot for. It's 3 months later and you've got that BiS? Or you've done all your raids and you're bored and still want to take a shot and a low-chanve upgrade? Now you can decide if you want to spend extra time grinding the "beyond BiS" that is WF/TF gear. Or, you can call it good.

See? Just because there exists an upgrade, doesn't mean you are required to chase it. And if you're in a guild that is requiring you to farm that crap, you are more than welcome to find a new guild.

Yes, but I LIKE getting BIS. I enjoyed knowing that I had the best piece or set of pieces for the tier. Now it's basically never ending...Oh, I got the Corrupted piece, but it didn't have a socket, bummer....

I choose not to chase it right now, because it's such a slog, but I enjoyed knowing what BIS was and how I could get it.

[Thenatural]

You can tell because opinions are divided on it.

Opinions are only divided on it in places where people make a sport out of being a contrarian, mostly in toxic environments like this place.

[Thirtyrock]

I'm hoping they reintroduce ilvl upgrades to gear with a badge system of some kind - so you can get your BiS gear for your spec, then you upgrade it over time without having to worry or hope for a WF / TF proc. Then after that - I hope they reintroduce the corruption system but with choices and actually having the chance to pick and choose what you get / have. I honestly hate the RNG system but the systems themselves are nice when you have direct control.

That second idea is basically just azerite traits.

I agree with the first completely.

[Molvonos]

I expect this forum to go 180 degrees within 6 months of SL and the "Loot is boring, I miss TF / WF etc" crowd to become vocal in creating threads instead of answering in "WF / TF ruined the game, let loot be loot" crowd.

Well, of course.

That happens with anything. When the current iteration of the 'noisy crowd's gets what they are after, they have less reason to he noisy.

Allowing a different group of disenfranchised folk to be noisy.

It's kinda how we came across the retail/classic faultline split.

[Wildpantz]

I mean, it seemed to work just fine for multiple expansions (in fact, the majority of them) prior to TF/CF being a thing. You really don't need the endless treadmill of never hitting "true" BiS to keep people playing. If the game is good and the content comes out quick enough, you'll keep playing. The problems in the past was some content "lasted" 9-12+ months so you had way too much time to get the best gear. If content lasts shorter (like 4-5 months), most people won't hit that. The super-top .001% players (world first racers) won't stop til they have literally nothing left to work on for their entire team and all their alts. The vast majority of the rest of us, even the rest of the Mythic/CE players, probably wouldn't even get it in time. As for anyone not even getting CE/very high M+ levels (like past 20), they won't even get their BiS ever so they always will have something to work on.

No it didnt i and majority of raiders only logged on for raids nothing else gold got sent through mail from raidleader who brought people in paying gold. There was 0 reason to play wow more then raid log.

The Titanforging system is fine the issue is 4 difficultys making the power increase so much. After week 3 of a patch there was 0 incentive to play anything outside of raidlog

- - - Updated - - -

This is an absurd question for anyone that played before WF was introduced. There is absolutely no need for such a mechanic in the game. I have no idea why people think it is needed. The people that get full BiS is an extreme minority and those people are not the type of people that stop playing just because they got full BiS.

Heck, even in WotLK Naxx days, the easiest time ever in the game to get full BiS, people still kept playing.

What are you high on? Bis was very easy to get unless you where playing in some 8 week progression guild. Before mythic raiding i full cleared normal and heroic week 1 every patch ever mythic is way harder though