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  1. #201
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    I know i could have watched videos to start with but i feel like if you need to do that there is an inherent problem with the design of the affix.
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    I know. And i agree. And thats why i think they affix is a problem. Because i have done the due dilligence of learning all the dungeons in a setting where i didnt annoy anyone by occasionally not doing exactly what i was supposed to do
    What about this affix makes this true that wasn't before? Players have always been expected to know at least the relative route to take by the time you're doing keys ten and above, whether having learned by video, route planning guide, or prior experience in the dungeon. The obelisk affix didn't cause, or change, or amplify this. The affix only modified what the best routes happen to be for this specific season, but this is no different than several other of the previous +10 affixes or from the initial learning curve of stepping into this expansions m+ for the first time. There's always the expectation that no one is going into it blind, least of all the tank.

    At this point it feels like you're arguing just to argue since several of us cleared up a bunch of your fears and misconceptions you had about this season's affix within a few hours of your initial post.

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  2. #202
    Bloodsail Admiral Skylarking's Avatar
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    How can someone dislike awakened? It makes dungeons so much easier...

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Skylarking View Post
    How can someone dislike awakened? It makes dungeons so much easier...
    They are all secretly Rogue FOTM rerollers - they want their confirmed spot back for shroud.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    Just popping in to remind everyone that Awakened is still the best seasonal affix Blizzard have ever put in the game. All of the complaining I've seen in here seems to boil down to "I'm bad and I don't want to get better in order to do harder content so Blizzard should nerf the content instead". I think the biggest problem here is that people watch MDI and see the pulls people do there and assume that they have to do the same thing to time a +10, when they blatantly don't. You could pull one pack at a time, skip no trash, kill all of the obelisks right where they spawn, probably still wipe once or twice AND make the timer on a +10. Stop getting so hung up on shit that doesn't even apply to the part of the game you're trying to play.

    By the way, I've seen people say they don't want to watch videos, refuse to use MDT to plan things in advance, and refuse to actually practice by trial and error. If that's the case, what do you actually want to do? Do you want Blizzard to somehow download the perfect M+ route for every dungeon directly into your brain along with every patch cycle? Have you considered that maybe, if you refuse to read, watch, or do yourself, you shouldn't be as good at something as someone who will do those things?
    uhm,unless 480 people are doing those 10's by doing all that crap you mentioned,than no,they likely arent gonna time it,the people doing 10s are not very well geared,those 10's depending on their gear/experience can feel like a 20 for a max geared player

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    uhm,unless 480 people are doing those 10's by doing all that crap you mentioned,than no,they likely arent gonna time it,the people doing 10s are not very well geared,those 10's depending on their gear/experience can feel like a 20 for a max geared player
    And if it's that slow, then none of the people in the key should be complaining that the tank doesn't follow the perfect MDI pull routes and obelisk skips because they aren't geared or experienced enough to do them anyway. There's just no validity to the contention of the OP whatsoever, it's just people complaining about something and wanting the rules changed because they don't want to put in the effort to actually improve. None of the people who are competing in the MDI or pushing 26/27 keys on live sat around and said "i don't want to watch videos that means blizzard failed at design and i don't want to pug because everyone is toxic and i don't want to make friends and do keys with them either because that's too hard so blizzard needs to nerf the content so i can do it", they did everything they possibly could to improve, understand more about the game/their class/the dungeons/mechanics etc.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    There is no point restarting this whole discussion.

    I know i could have watched videos to start with but i feel like if you need to do that there is an inherent problem with the design of the affix.

    Thats a subjective stance obviously
    The design of the content is for an organized group. The same design that creates raid fights. The idea being a group of 5 friends or guildmates running it. The only content actually created for a pug group is Heroic dungeons and LFR raiding.

    Pug groups are a huge increase in difficulty, because they usually do not communicate well and the members usually do not give a shit about each other so they WILL be toxic if they get irked where a guild group might crack jokes about a failed key or at most be frustrated, pugs will always fly of the handle.

    As a fellow Tank I will give you this advice: Get used to toxicity or find a nice guild to run with. The second being the better choice I find.

    Perfect runs are very seldom and in many cases it won't even be your fault, but pugs will blame you anyway. People pull accidentally, one of the Obelisk bosses dies too soon and the skip does not work correctly, a boss mechanic is failed and a wipe happens, dps is too low etc. At high levels it really does not take a lot to wipe the group.

    The affix itself actually makes the dungeons a ton easier and some skips are awesome, but you need experience to know how and this you can only collect by actually doing them. Guides are nice, but it does not beat experience. Much like with a raid fight, you can watch that fatboss vid 50 times, but you still cannot 100% copy what they did just from that.

    So what is my solution to your problem?

    1) You ignore toxicity, because there is simply no way that you will only do perfect dungeon runs and never be blamed by an unsatified idiot, who has probably done 50 mistakes along the run, but calls you out for the one you did. That is just PUG Life. People are idiots and leavers. Even if you clearly state "no experience, wipes guaranteed" you will get that one illiterate guy that leaves when the first wipe happens.

    Had one of those only last night. We casually progress in Mythic Ny'alotha with the guild mostly. Were on Maut, but some of the guildies had to go and we had to get 2 pugs. Despite writing in the decription that it would be progress and wipes are expected, that one idiot priest witnessed one wipe and instantly left again.
    Moral: You cannot avoid the idiots of the world, you can only ignore them.

    2) Find a guild, really, learn new things with a guild group, so they can help you out. Doing a new thing with decent people on voice comms makes it a ton easier. When we started this patch the Obelisks completely raped my face. Especially the Fear guy with his super painful adds. We failed several 10s and 11s, but slowly got better. No one expected perfect runs, so the stress was minimal.
    Now I am tanking 15-18s with general ease and confidence (depending on the affixes less of both) and I am trying to teach the newer Tanks in the guild how to do it by giving pointers during a dungeon (while I run along in dps spec).
    Despite this, finding good Tanks for a guild is very hard, especially for M+, so guilds are usually very interested. DPS players you generally get a dozen for a dime (and about 60% of these is embarassingly bad at their role) but a good Tank or Healer is very hard to find.

  7. #207
    Awakened is a horrifically awful idea. Once you get halfway thru an expac, the tank is expected to be pro at it. And that's just not the case. It would be fine if you can just run m+10 all day without penalty. But if you fail, the key drops down. That puts the added pressure of guilt on the tank.

    If you like the way m+10 and beyond is currently built, there's a high chance you are a sociopath that has no feeling for others. If you actually care about people, the guilt would totally put you off tanking them. You actually have to go in with the mentality that you don't give a fuck if you wreck someone's key, you are going to learn how to run it. That's a bizarre and malicious game design.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Awakened is a horrifically awful idea. Once you get halfway thru an expac, the tank is expected to be pro at it. And that's just not the case. It would be fine if you can just run m+10 all day without penalty. But if you fail, the key drops down. That puts the added pressure of guilt on the tank.

    If you like the way m+10 and beyond is currently built, there's a high chance you are a sociopath that has no feeling for others. If you actually care about people, the guilt would totally put you off tanking them. You actually have to go in with the mentality that you don't give a fuck if you wreck someone's key, you are going to learn how to run it. That's a bizarre and malicious game design.
    What has any of what you said to do with awakened?

    Bizarre train of thought you're on...

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by badgersmashr View Post
    People aren't interested in wasting their time for low reward and teaching someone they will never meet again. There is no incentive for them to not be shitty, but there is a punishment for when things go bad.
    That's true in life in general. That is why in sports, the greatest athletes almost never make good coaches, because they are too impatient and angry and will quickly have a mutiny on their hands in the locker room. Its almost always the bench guy that makes a great head coach, because it takes enormous patience to be left out and still keep trying to play. And patience is the key to coaching. But those people are rare.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Awakened is a horrifically awful idea. Once you get halfway thru an expac, the tank is expected to be pro at it. And that's just not the case. It would be fine if you can just run m+10 all day without penalty. But if you fail, the key drops down. That puts the added pressure of guilt on the tank.
    It's funny how the community seems to prefer agency within a dungeon as opposed to a linear path. The role of the path finder is on the tank and if the tank isn't 100% confident on the path it can screw the run. A lot of Blizz's design philosphy lately has been to make the tank less crucial, threat easier to generate, tanks can survive most mechanics if they botch them etc.

    I've failed several +10 Atal'dazar runs simply because I wasn't sure which route to take, there are so many options, and i don't consider which skips aren't as viable if we don't have a Rogue, Hunter or Mage. Between how a tank positions mobs, and amount of CC they bring I think they do hold the most weight in a dungeon therefore I always feel like crap if we miss the timer.

    With that said, a pug is a pug and most key holders understand this. Practice makes perfect.

  11. #211
    I think it's interesting to see the effect Awakened has had on the dungeons. Certain dungeons I used to love are now close to the bottom (like Atal'dazar) whereas other dungeons I didn't use to think much of have skyrocketed to the top (Temple of Sethralis and Motherlode). If you're a tank and you are just getting used to Awakened as an affix I would just recommend doing Workshop where the route stays fairly the same. I think Atal is probably the worst dungeon right now in terms of routes because there's so many options that it just gets confusing.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    I do have MDT but it does seem like a really daunting task for me to plan a dungeon run ahead like that. I'm not looking to do super serious dungeon runs at 20+. Just seems to me like this feature is way over the top in terms of complexity added for no real benefit. I get a lot of people like it. It just really, really turns me off
    Typing raider.io, then clicking 3 times isnt nearly as daunting as you're making it out to be.

    If you dont want to make the effort to plan your own route, either copy/paste from r.io or ask the group if someone has a route they want used.

    If you cant be bothered with any of the above, dont tank anything above 9s. Even without addons, you should be doing the pulls which means you should know where you are and where the group is going.

  13. #213
    Upon further investigation (recently gearing up an alt tank through strictly pugging), the experience gets MUCH better once you hit 15 keys, as the quality of player increases dramatically. 11-14 is filled with tons of toxic, overly arrogant players that haven't realized they are actually bad at the game yet, and usually frustrated as they are in depletion after depletion group in that range on a character that they should be able to carry that key level easily (470+, good corruptions).

    Basically don't take most "advice" or criticism in that range, and when you get the gear your experience will improve tenfold starting around 15's, as you'll be with not only noticeably better players, but often time people as well.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichology View Post
    Upon further investigation (recently gearing up an alt tank through strictly pugging), the experience gets MUCH better once you hit 15 keys, as the quality of player increases dramatically. 11-14 is filled with tons of toxic, overly arrogant players that haven't realized they are actually bad at the game yet, and usually frustrated as they are in depletion after depletion group in that range on a character that they should be able to carry that key level easily (470+, good corruptions).

    Basically don't take most "advice" or criticism in that range, and when you get the gear your experience will improve tenfold starting around 15's, as you'll be with not only noticeably better players, but often time people as well.
    To a degree but since the buyable corruption got added 15+ is getting an increased volume of terrible players (both in attitude and skill levels).

    I usually try to stick with similar rating groups to minimise risk of shit shows but unfortunately there's quite a few people trying to boost friends and guildies that really just arent up to par with that difficulty (and get oddly defensive about it when you bring it up).
    Last edited by Great Destiny Man; 2020-05-23 at 02:54 AM.

  15. #215
    Psst... just whispering in your regular reminder that Mythic+ is PUG-enabled, and PUG-capable, but never PUG-intended. It's not group content, it's team content, and group of strangers is not a team. The mode was clearly meant for recurring familiar teams, and anyone doing it elsewise does so at their own risk. Nothing about M+ is remotely mandatory, it's the definition of optional, arbitrary difficulty to push gear numbers that aren't needed to see the content, or to enjoy with actual friends. Play the game, don't let it play you, and enjoy!

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    Psst... just whispering in your regular reminder that Mythic+ is PUG-enabled, and PUG-capable, but never PUG-intended. It's not group content, it's team content, and group of strangers is not a team. The mode was clearly meant for recurring familiar teams, and anyone doing it elsewise does so at their own risk. Nothing about M+ is remotely mandatory, it's the definition of optional, arbitrary difficulty to push gear numbers that aren't needed to see the content, or to enjoy with actual friends. Play the game, don't let it play you, and enjoy!
    Nothing about the game at all is mandatory and most rational thinking people are aware of the risk of pugging, but yea thanks for pointing out the obvious?

  17. #217
    Immortal callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Am I crazy for thinking that this affix makes m+10 and higher easier than they were before? I mean, if you've done the dungeon on any level you know where the trash packs are, you know where the bosses are, and as such you can use this affix to skip the unnecessary, or more troublesome, parts of the dungeon - optimizing your path. I'm noexpert, but, good god this affix is the best thing that came along for m+. By far my favorite affix.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Destiny Man View Post
    Nothing about the game at all is mandatory and most rational thinking people are aware of the risk of pugging, but yea thanks for pointing out the obvious?
    I don't really disagree with you, but...

    See, if it was obvious, I kinda feel like we wouldn't see so many "my class doesn't get picked" or "raider.io is the devil" or "tanking/healing these things is hell in the current communal climate" threads. People do need to be reminded that it's ALL optional, but especially the later end stuff. Like I don't know why people put themselves through it when it's all optional, but clearly torturous!

    I'm a 33-alt "most upgrades from world quests and timewalking vendors" player with a handful of friends that have no interest in M+. I've never played a single dungeon above heroic beyond "the single mythic dungeon to unlock the story early on" per expansion. And I haven't felt I've missed a thing because I've identified the intent of M+ and it's wholly capital-O optional and holds no interest to me. I literally can't empathize with wanting to PUG something clearly meant for teams of friends.

    So yeah, I do think that "pointing out the obvious" is kinda needed now and then, because I've blissfully enjoyed the last 2 expansions' gameplay (lore is another whoooole topic) by observing who the audience is for this or that content and identifying what is "for me" and what isn't... and I feel like I know something others don't because "everyone" is so miserable in their "raider.io," "don't wreck my key," "don't be new on my time" M+ PUG hellhole!

    I mean it's not rocket science... and yet... *points to this thread and all the others like it full of miserable souls trying to PUG M+*
    Last edited by Omedon; 2020-05-23 at 03:36 AM.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    I don't really disagree with you, but...

    See, if it was obvious, I kinda feel like we wouldn't see so many "my class doesn't get picked" or "raider.io is the devil" or "tanking these things is hell in the current communal climate" threads. People do need to be reminded that it's ALL optional, but especially the later end stuff. Like I don't know why people put themselves through it when it's all optional, but clearly torturous!

    I'm a 33-alt "most upgrades from world quests and timewalking vendors" player with a handful of friends that have no interest in M+. I've never played a single dungeon above heroic beyond "the single mythic dungeon to unlock the story early on" per expansion. And I haven't felt I've missed a thing because I've identified the intent of M+ and it's wholly capital-O optional and holds no interest to me. I literally can't empathize with wanting to PUG something clearly meant for teams of friends.

    So yeah, I do think that "pointing out the obvious" is kinda needed now and then, because I've blissfully enjoyed the last 2 expansions' gameplay (lore is another whoooole topic) by observing who the audience is for this or that content and identifying what is "for me" and what isn't... and I feel like I know something others don't because "everyone" is so miserable in their "raider.io," "don't wreck my key," "don't be new on my time" M+ PUG hellhole!

    I mean it's not rocket science... and yet... *points to this thread and all the others like it full of miserable souls trying to PUG M+*
    Like I say rational thinking people know the risks of PuGs. Those who want to piss and moan about class balance, r.io system being issues on their M+ viability arent likely to hear anything outside their own bubble.

    That said, I think discussions on the state of PuGs and expectations are fair discussions so long as people dont turn it into pity parties about why everyone's out to get them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Am I crazy for thinking that this affix makes m+10 and higher easier than they were before? I mean, if you've done the dungeon on any level you know where the trash packs are, you know where the bosses are, and as such you can use this affix to skip the unnecessary, or more troublesome, parts of the dungeon - optimizing your path. I'm noexpert, but, good god this affix is the best thing that came along for m+. By far my favorite affix.
    Easier can be largely debated, but I'd argue awakened provides far more flexibility than any of the other seasonal affixes did.

    It's significantly easier to adapt on the fly to over pulls and what not as well as the potential to straight out ignore an obelisk and kill the mini boss at the end if the obelisk is in a shit place.

  20. #220
    Immortal callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Destiny Man View Post
    Easier can be largely debated, but I'd argue awakened provides far more flexibility than any of the other seasonal affixes did.

    It's significantly easier to adapt on the fly to over pulls and what not as well as the potential to straight out ignore an obelisk and kill the mini boss at the end if the obelisk is in a shit place.
    Flexibility is definitely the better description. For me, in my experience thus far, that flexibility "feels" like this affix makes things so much easier. Yes, I know, certainly debatable: but as of now, I seriously love this affix.

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