Night Elves, Magic & the Arcane - Common Misconceptions & Things You Didn't Consider

[Mace]

Lots of confusion and inconsistent perceptions of Night elves around, I thought produce a knowledgebase to help iron something out and challenge some mis-conceptions I have noticed held by players on this topic. This is the purpose of this topic.

What the Devs Say About Night Elves
Some seem to think blizzard don't know Night elves, or took the development of the Night elves in a wrong way. They never think to challenge or question whether how they viewed night elves or perceived them may have missed what blizzard intended. Night elves are enigmatic, they aren't straightforward to understand, this is intentional. However if you really like them, and have delved into all their lore (not cherry picked the ones you liked), you will find a lot of it makes sense, there isn't nearly as much inconsistency as you think.

Firstly, let us look at what the developers intended for the Night elves. Here is a piece that stood out from another topic.

The Non-Savage Arcane/Nature Duality Night Elf - The Night Elves are not JUST Forest Elves
The devs have expressed the intention behind the night elves: One such interview is here

https://web.archive.org/web/20010205...667651,00.html




They were never the pure forest elf race some felt.

Though I sometimes see people feeling the night elves are a savage race or a forest elf race, they can be forgiven because of the strong influence of druidism in the night elves, but while a significant part of the race, it doesn't dominate them and roughly comes to about 1/3 to 1/2 of their makeup. I gently remind them that it was not the intention or purpose, nor do we witness the portrayal of night elves as either primarily or entirely a savage race or a forest elf race. Worgen were the savage race, you don't call a savage race Elf - Elf is not what you use when you want to do savage. Nor are they primarily forest elves never intended that way (nor shown to only be forest based), they have a forest/dark elf duality.


We have been told in lore shown the Night Elf race to be both arcane and nature prolific, the pre-sundering civilization, the Highborne, the Moonguard, the magic wielders, the priesthood of Elune - those are all part of the dark elf aspect of the night elves.. whether the civilization was destroyed yesterday or 10,000 years ago, the night elf remains the arcane affinity, arcane essence magical elf, with a natural racial disposition to the arcane and a great love of nature. We have been seen a lot more of the magical side of the priesthood of Elune recently in the game, and also far more arcane night elf activity in game in Cataclysm expansion and Legion expansion - not to mention 5 books (the War of the Ancients Trilogy, Wolfheart and Illidan) have much information and lore on non-forest elf druidic night elves. Contrary to what some believe, the Highborne part of the night elves is not created solely for the Thalassian elf, and is not to be considered as only there to be part of the Thalassian lore. No, it is fully a part of the night elf and its make up, a substantial half, it is from this half that the devs connect the night elf to the high elf, but that part is ALL night elf too. Both halves together represent all the night elves.

Now the forest elf side of the night elves is represented mostly in the druids which the classic game's levelling experience dominates as well as in The sentinels and huntresses who see much more action in WC3. However it is incomplete and incorrect to ignore the lore material in the novels and the material that shows up in the game, including the highborn of 1.1, the Darnassian re-instated highborne caste of 4.0, the Farondis, Moonguard and Nightborne of 7.0, and to ignore the Demon hunters no matter how small their numbers are, they are a significant part of the night elves and a core part of their make up.

Night elves are magical, very magical - this is what the lore tells and shows us

If you look a little closer, clearing your mind of bias or the focus on your favourite parts, you will see it so clearly.

Pre-sundering
Most of Night Elf written history focuses on the pre-sundering era, the most notable thing about the Night elves then was not as hunter/gatherers or savage feral combatants, but as prolific arcane users, who built an entire empire filled with magic, to an extraordinary level that is still coveted today by the magical societies of the world. The great account of the first invasion of the Legion and the sundering is full of the magic of the Night elves. Arcane magic was what most of them fought with, members of the Moonguard and the famous Palace Highborne Sunstriders who joined Tyrande. Illidan and Tyrande employ a lot of magic during their accounts, so does Malfurion, who performs many magical spells, both the newly learnt nature ones and previous arcane based spell work he knows.

Post-Sundering
After the sundering, the 3 main Night elf groups we know of are again most renowned for magic. In Northern Kalimdor, the Long Vigil group bans the practise of arcane magic, yet we know of them most for their great strides in nature magic, working in the emerald dream with magic, trying to heal he world, suppress arcane magic usage to prevent the Legions return, growing world trees, hiding Kalimdor in mists. The magical arcane Well of Eternity was the focus of that era for them, and while it wasn't used for arcane spell work, it's magical arcane energy was used to create Moonwells all over the land where priestly and druidic magic were employed to utilise that magical energy to boost the environment and its inhabitants. The Long Vigil ends in WC3, while Night elf units do shoot lots of arrows, most notable are the magic of the priesthood and druids employed - whether the arcane starfall or the nature tranquillity, summoning trees and animals to join the fight.

Amongst the Night elf group in Eldre'thalas and Suramar - the same intensity of arcane magical use continued in one, while another group in Suramar city went even further ingesting pure arcane energy for food when their natural resources faced total depletion.

Current Era - Post Long Vigil
In the current era, after WC3, the most notable actions and activities of Night elves are magical. The druids grow a magical world tree (the largest by far, and the 4th such), you meet magical problems that require magical remedies full of magical creatures.
You meet the Shen'dralar and it's all about magic in Dire Maul
In 4.0, it is magic is the focus of the Night elves, the ban on arcane is lifted and the Highborne of Eldre'thalas join up with the Darnassians continuing the new developments, because their magical might is greatly needed.
The druids you work with in Mount Hyjal and the lost ruined Night Elf sunken city of Vashj'ir are all dealing with, involving, using, protecting, protecting against, acting with and counteracting MAGIC.

Bad Assumptions that Have Warped This Perception
If you only focus on one aspect and talk about it the most, it will colour your overall impression if you are not careful. So to avoid that:

1. Try not to think of the night elves as ONLY feral hunter-types, that is minor in comparison: magic has always played a larger role for them, whether it was the arcane intensive period of the pre-sundering, or the druidic achievements of the Long Vigil, or the priesthood of Elune and it's magical origin and purpose.
2. Nature magic is also magic, although most references to magic are talking about the arcane, do not forget divine magic and nature magic are also magics
3. Don't let the Long Vigil period (where the most famous Night elf group felt they had to ban the use of the arcane) blind you from perceiving that magic (yes arcane magic now) was still quite central to the Night elven group, even without using the arcane directly for spells. There were other Night elf groups who hadn't banned spell usage.

Banning the use of the arcane for spells doesn't make a group less magical. It just makes them less practised with using that type of magic for spell work. indeed during the whole time of the long vigil, they were surrounded and suffused with the magic of the Well of Eternity and the Moonwells they bathed the lands they win with its power. they made good and responsible use of the magic they had, despite not using it directly to cast spells.

Whether with arcane or nature magic, the Night elf race is heavily steeped in Magic


Common Mis Conceptions From Players:
1. WC3 presentation of the Night elves is NOT the main or only thing there is to the night elves or should be. - it really isn't and they weren't intended to only be or even mainly be the way you saw them there [as evidenced by WoW's presentation subsequent book releases of their past, and future development both in novels and in game]. WC3 focuses on 1 group of Night elves only (not all Night elves) and is a turning point in that most famous group of the race's existence where a way of life is about to end due to another destiny altering event. It is the 2nd such event for the race - made clear from the stat. It is a race introduced with a 15,000 year back history, and it's 2nd major pivotal moment. The first saw the end of the Night elf empire and what is referred to as the pre-sundering era. Wc3 shows you the end of the event that marked the end Long Vigil era.

Tell me, if Night elves had been introduced as their Nightborne sub-race in Legion was, with the 1st invasion of the Legion, would you be thinking night elves were only arcane elves? Even if WoW fast forwarded to the present? Exactly - you consider the entire lore.

Liking the Night elves as forest elves of WC3 does not make them exclusively into forest elves. If that is what you think, you must correct your thinking. You are shown a major facet of the Night elves in WC3, but it is not the only, there are key aspects indicated in WC3, but that have much larger stories and roles told in other volumes and games that followed the release of that product.

It is best to view WC3 as showing a side of the Night elves, but only part of a much bigger whole.

2. Misconception that The novels and books on the Night elf don't matter and aren't canon. - This is incorrect, the novels and books like Chronicles are all canon material. in fact most of the Night elf lore is in books. The majority of the history of the races and the Warcraft universe is in books and a considerable amount of story, background, are in books. The Night elves had very little in-game development, however they had a large number of novels around them. Their tally comes to 6. Higher than any single race in the Warcraft universe.

How to treat Conflicts:
Everything in WC3 is canon, same with the books - sometimes, minor details have some conflict, this doesn't make the previous work all invalid eg. in WC3, the map of the broken isles is different and Suramar is a total ruin rather than partial - some are tempted to think WC3 isn't valid any more. NO, the devs never said that, just take the later version has having a fuller picture. The images of Silvermoon City and Dalaran in WC3 are very different from what we see in WoW, does that mean WC3 is invalid? No, take the wow version as the more complete one in that instance.

As a general rule, the newer version supersedes the older one, simply take it as a more accurate version



Common Incorrect Statements from the Opposition-to-Magical Night Elven players.

1. To the Players Who Say the Arcane and Civilization Is not for Night elves

That's opinion, not fact.
a) To say the night elves shouldn't have an arcane culture b/c they banned arcane for 10k years, is also opinion not fact, and is based on the blood elf view of the matter - it is not fact.
b) To say they have no arcane culture is also wrong - it is wrong in the Darnassian group since the Shen'dralar have joined as it exists amongst those Highborne, it is also wrong amongst other groups like the Moonguard and Farondis.
c) To say the past doesn't matter as some sort of proof that the night elves don't have the arcane because it's the past is also wrong - not only do they have current arcane users, but just because something is in the past doesn't mean it is somehow no longer a part of them - what you mean to say is that the arcane doesn't play a major role in current Darnassian society - that would be correct but to say this is because the night elves have moved on or rejected the arcane would be incorrect, You have no proof, only head canon. In fact the only correct statement is that the Darnassian group don't have much of an arcane culture as a society.

N.B.

• Don't generalise. When you say Night elves, remember you are talking about a race, not just a faction. If you mean a faction, you should say so, and specify which one. For example the faction most player night elves play are the Darnassians, (exception of the demon hunter Night elf - which is not a Darnassian).
• There is a difference between the arcane as a magical power and the practise of the arcane in a society. The main Night elven never banned the arcane, or hated it, they banned the practise of the arcane for magical spells. It is worth noting that 3 other large Night elven groups did not do so.. .so to generalise that the Night elves banned the arcane is very incorrect.
• Note the difference between an activity in a society and the capability of an individual or race. To say the arcane is not a core part of the night elves is incorrect, to say it isn't a core or significant part of the Darnassian society at present is correct. Massive difference.

2. The arcane is not the exclusive purview of blood elves, it is incorrect if you feel it is, it is not (not amongst elves as Nightborne and Night elves show or other races as humans, forsaken, Draenei etc show. Nor are elven magical cities the exclusive right of Blood elves or the horde. Looking at you horde only Blood elf fans, you have erroneously taken it upon yourself to feel that the arcane is your exclusive right, you shouldn't, the birth, greatest development and mastery of it has always been a part of the Night elf race from the start. It is part of the Elf race type set and it is not exclusive to blood elves - as the Nightborne and Kaldorei lore past and present clearly show you. Remember when alliance players felt that having cities, civilizsed races and arcane magic were exclusively their right, well they were wrong when the Blood elves went horde, but in this case, you were shown from the start and told the night elves had this in them.

3. Blizzard doesn't do races that are about one thing only. The night elves were never only about the forest/nature, the blood elves never only about the arcane. This is clear in every single playable group, race and faction. And is not just meant for very important diversity and a more realistic approach, but also to give players a wide assortment of fantasies to play their characters in a role of. It is a roleplaying game and multiple roles are defined for each race.

a) Nature is a major part of the Night elf theme - but it is not the only major theme amongst the Night elves.
b) The arcane has and still plays a major part both in the affairs, history and nature of the Night elf race - note this is not the same as saying "arcane Culture" is predominant or a major part of the Darnassian society


Arcane, Nature and Divine in Night Elves
The arcane , nature and Elune are very distinct in night elves yet totally intertwined, this is very unique thing of this race. Each Order whether Elune, the Druids or the Highborne/Moonguard.

This section is devoted to pointing out key parts where we see aspects of each magic type in all night elves.

The Arcane In the Night elves

• Their creation by the magical Well of Eternity
• Their great affinity and skill for the arcane - by the time of the 1st invasion, all Night elves were learning the arcane from early childhood [note learning doesn't mean all became as prolific as Highborne mages]
• All Night elves are suffused with the power of the Well of Eternity (their eyes glow silver b/c, and the purple skin tone is a result of the Well's influence on their make-up)
• The World's most famous magical caste, the Highborne are all Night elves (while it is true some Highborne were turned into Naga by the old gods, some into Satyr by Sargeras, one group by Darth'remar became a new race of elves, the High elves and like all the Night elves of Suramar, the Highborne amongst those left in the city became the new night elf subrace, the Nightborne), the original Highborne is night elven, always was, and the current ones raising new talent amongst the Night elves.
• The Kaldorei is the only elf group to this day remains unchanged from the arcane infused being that came to be 15,000 years ago, his arcane affinity and talent still there regardless of his chosen class or devotion.
• The arcane Well of Eternity was the main feature of the Long Vigil era for that group of Night elves
• The arcane was used prolifically for spells by the city groups in Eldre'thalas and Suramar, as well as the Moonguard in Moonguard Stronghold
• The arcane waters were all over Night elf Long vigil group lands in Moonwells, suffusing the land, flora and fauna with arcane energy that was utilised to improve them.

Arcane in Society and Arcane Practice:

• There is a distinction between the arcane itself and the use of arcane in society or practising.
• Arcane in Darnassian society is mostly limited to the highborne group, but amongst them it is still quite prolific
• Arcane practice is prolific amongst arcane wielding Night elves like the Highborne, the Moonguard, Farondis ghosts etc, it is not however a big part of the wider society of Night elves.

Arcane in the Priesthood:

• While priests and druids don't use the arcane in the same way or depth as mages do, the arcane is very much present
• Priesthood of Elune is shown to largely use Arcane spells offensively, fitting the arcane half of the Night elves and its arcane origin
• Elune is inextricably linked to the arcane Well of Eternity and arcane energy. It's not to say she's only about the arcane, but it's a part.
• Night elven priests discover Elune first through studying the Well, [I propose that it could be that it is pursuit of the Goddess that drove the initial study of the well that led to discovering the use of arcane magic, and that what became the mage class developed from those amongst the priests or other night elves that sought practical uses for this magic.]
• The Order is said to hold the Arcane Waters of the Well of Eternity as sacred, and appear to view the use of magic as sacred thing - this would explain their anger at the abuse of magic by the Highborne at the end of Azshara's reign, and Tyrande's disgust at the state she found the Nightborne in when she returns to Suramar. It is also indication that neither the arcane nor arcane magic is hated, but quite the opposite. It is the abuse and reckless misuse that is frowned on as you would expect from a body that holds this magic as sacred. During the Long Vigil they would have opposed the use of the magic for spells, not out of hatred, but out of purpose. . However I can imagine a holy fear over its use to have increased during that period, causing a reticence towards its practice again in some priestesses even after the ban is lifted. It is not a straightforward interaction, there is nuance there, as you would expect.

Arcane in Druidism

• Druids suppressed the use of the arcane for spells during the Long Vigil period, but are known in wow, after it ends to use arcane based spells
• The source of the druidic arcane spells are the stars and moon, not an arcane source like the Well of Eternity - this may explain why druids use these spells.
• The fact that druids do use arcane powered spells is an indication of the arcane core in this race - their druidism is clearly also linked to the arcane.
• This also makes sense when you consider the Night elves have an arcane and nature duality, there is going to be arcane love in druids, and nature love in mages.

Arcane practise and arcane use in society vary, and should not be confused with arcane capability and the presence of arcane magic

Nature in the Night elves

• Night elves are shown to also have a deep love and care for nature and the wilds - this was something that drew Cenarius to them before they gained great arcane mastery.
• Night elves of the Long Vigil on having to ban the use of arcane magic, showed they were quite good at developing nature magic, during that period they:
• Grew magical world trees,
• Guided the evolution of the world magically in the Emerald Dream.
• All Night elves care for nature incl some of the Highborne

Nature in the Pre-sundering era and Highborne:

• The Night elves built their cities combining arcane magic and nature magic wielded by powerful Ancients. [source: Well of Eternity Novel]
• Night elven cities are typically shown to have many gardens, mini forested, garden rooftops, more so than any - as seen by the images of pre-sundering Zin'Azshari in Warbringers Azshara and Suramar City in Legion, the ruins of Eldre'thalas still have Ancients, nature wielders seeking to restore the bastion of arcana.
• Chronicles mentions that revere for the wilds was absent in the Highborne closest to the Queen during the pre-sundering era, but still there amongst most of the arcane wielding Night elven populace.
• Azsuna quests show that Highborne not under the greater direct influence of the Queen, like the Farondis did have a courteous respect for the wilds and Elune.
• Suramar, where the night elves there continued and deepened their intense indulgence in arcane magic, we see having nature and gardens. In the Nighthold, though High Botanist Tel'am sides with the Legion and starts creating twisted aberrations, he and the Nightborne in the gardens are indication of the night elven arcane using communities continuous use of nature magic. It isn't as developed or advanced as what Malfurion (pretty much a genius with nature) did to advance those studies.. but it is further indication of nature amongst arcane wielding night elven groups

Nature in the Priesthood of Elune.

• The Order of Elune certainly don't worship the wilds or the wild gods, but they do revere them
• The priesthood order and their sentinels are seen to fight for the wilds and defend the lands of the night elves, claiming them as the lands of the Goddess.
• The Priestesses always work closely with the druids when Moonwells are set up, blessing its waters and working in tandem, fully in agreement with the goals of the druids and nature even though they do not actively work towards those ends.
• It would be very inaccurate to think of the priesthood of Elune as Forest priests or nature priests - that is actually what the druid is. The Order does not worship nor is devoted to the forest or its spirits, and they don't interact much with the druids at all (Feralas Quest line tells us). This makes sense, the druids are constantly in the wilds, the Order operate from bases and oversee civilian life, both during the Long vigil and currently. However, their care for nature exists and is evidenced - we see the priesthood working hand in hand with druids in times of great distress to nature.
• A good portion of the sentinel army are forest rangers and scouts, huntresses and woodland roamers - this is partly because this has been the main habitat of the Night elven Darnassians over the last 10k years, and as such necessitated a growth in this wing of the Order, but it is an indication of a connection and is quite visible in a good portion of them.
• There are no nature spells witnessed in the priests, only arcane, light and void ones, however the Sentinel branch of the order with their bows and animal companions are the wing that operate mostly in nature and its environment. You wouldn't become a sentinel huntress if you didn't love the forests. This in my book counts as evidence.

Elune in the Night elves.

• The Night elves have had an attachment to the Goddess Elune from the very beginning.
• They believed she dwelt within the arcane well (hence the Preisthood's arcane connection), and they studied the well as a consequence.
• The Night Warrior ritual is a powerful spell empowerment for vengeance ruthlessly employing arcane and void energy used initially to conquer Kalimdor around 15,000 years ago and recently in the Night elves' reclaiming of Darkshore
• The Priesthood has been a staple in ALL forms of Night elf society, although it appeared to be absent from the Suramar community after the sundering, and no record of it being a part of the Eldre'thalas city, it is shown in lore to have been inextricably interwoven with the pre-sundering civilization and we see it is also the leading executive branch of the Kaldorei during the Long Vigil.

Night elf priests are seen in Night elf lore operating fully in Civilization and Forest wilderness alike

• Druids may revere the wilds, but they do employ blessings and spells from Elune that are arcane based.
• Druids can also be heard praising Elune, though their focus is nature and the wilds

• Farondis Highborne and Shen'dralar Highborne are also heard to praise Elune - now while this may just be an unaltered Night elf file being used, blizzard didn't see it fit to alter the Farondis or Shen'dralar NPCs like they did the high elf or Nightborne ones who have different voice files to the blood elves and Night elves despite being closely linked to those groups. While it may be slight, it is an observation.
• Arcane civilization and the priesthood went hand in hand in many things. It is quite likely the mages and magecraft originate from the Order of Elune who spearhead the first studies of the well of eternity that lead to the mastery of the use of arcane magic.
• Highborne may not be devoted followers of Elune, druids aren't either, but both revere and believe her as Goddess.
• Other arcane wielding Night Elves (lest you forget that the Highborne are not the only arcane wielding Night elves, only the most noble and skilled group of them), are counted as the other night elves that both fear Elune and revere the wilds.
  
  This is all indication that the Goddess is in every part of the Night elf societies and their people, to varying degrees of devotion, but there none-the-less.

Night Elven Racial Characteristics, Features and Tenets

These Are Core Characteristics of the race: (summarised in chronicles)
Characteristics

• Benevolent - Good natured, noble, peace seeking (doesn't mean they don't get angry or fierce)
• Graceful - beautiful, loving beauty, creating beauty (whether with nature, or with cities they build or with their own body)
• Highly Intelligent - really smart, make clever and wise choices (this is further enhanced if they use the arcane like in Pre-sundering times or if mages, Moonguard/highborne)

Features:

• Long lived - they are near immortal (spellwork could extend their lives indefinitely (mainly in the pre-sundering era, while the blessing of Nozdormu during/for Long Vigil group)
• Arcane essence - shaped/born from the arcane, they have a natural affinity, aptitude and skill for it and are often drawn to it
• Nature love - taught from early on by Cenarius, they love nature - although not all have always revered the wilds this is in their nature

Tenets
This is an observation I have noticed. There are certain key tenets that represent the night elf race, and it would appear that each order/magic school champions a pair of these however

• Balance and Harmony - From Druidism/Nature love
• Discipline and Humility - From the religion and Order of Elune
• Progress, research and Development - From the arcane especially highborne caste/order

Conclusion

Night elves are Elves - magic, the arcane is a core component of the species set, in the Warcraft universe, all this starts from the Night elves, every divergent, off shoot and sub-group of elf carries the arcane aptitude from the Night Elf.

Night elves are to elves what Zandalari trolls are to trolls, they have the broadest scope, the most diverse attributes of what the elves have - they are the first and the longest going. It shouldn't surprise anyone that the Arcane lives on in the night elf race and is present in all aspects of it (as detailed above - whether the Moonwells and Well of Eternity, the spell set or the arcane groups like the Highborne), nor should it surprise anyone that there are still arcane focused night elven communities and groups, even if arcane practice isn't so widespread amongst the total number of night elves still around today.

Elunism and Druidism are core parts of the Night elf too, parts which the off shoot groups like the Thalassians (who dropped it) and the Nightborne (who were without influences in these) don't have. However what they do share with the existing kaldorei is the arcane affinity and the magic excellence and practice (also the percentage that it influences each of the various groups and societies varies - with it most prevalent amongst the Nightborne and Highborne group, a little less in the Thalassian groups (most in the void elves, least in the Silver Covenant high elves, with blood elves around the middle mark) and least prevalent amongst the Darnassian society overall (seeing the Highborne society is a smaller section of the Darnassian and doesn't influence it as much as during the pre-sundering era). Still, it should be noted this is a core elven attribute - that the night elves have in lore and in game, and to rid them of it basically is to eliminate the most tangible bond between the groups.

I would go so far as to describe Elunism an Druidism key elven aspects missing from the smaller groups. This is because the night elf is the parent and wider group, so it has the greater diversity and is the founder of all the branches of "Elvenism" (all the key things related to elves, that elves are most known for)- these stem from the elves and the other groups have this because they come from night elves. While the Thalassians have the Light, bear in mind this expertise does not originate from the original elves, the night elves. The arcane one does, demon hunting does (which they have), but so does druidism and Elunism which they don't have (and I really feel they should, Botanists should have caught up to druids and even some joined them, while some elves, especially Nightborne and void elves should be picking up Elunism). Night elves have also been the longest practicing of all of these, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that night elves like the Shen'dralar are as powerful as any Nightborne or Blood elf - with arcane knowledge only Nightborne can match, and we will have night elf demon hunters that are more powerful or rather more experienced (power is based on how much you've absorbed, if you've been a DH longer, you'd have absorbed more power) because many of them have been at it much longer, or druidism.

This is the night elf race, the parent elf race, it will have arcane, druidism, demon hunting, divine practice, all magical things associated with the Elves will be present in the parent elf race, just like all the things associated with trolls, the height of the Loa knowledge and expertise and the full representation and diversity is present in the Zandalari - and while some of the troll sub-races have picked up things the Zandalari don't do, like cannibalism and warlock - these practices come either from outside (so not troll in origin and are considered evil or bad enough they won't).. it's a similar case with the original elf group not having the Holy Light things in them.

The Future:
Now fully aware that there is a strong long for the nature loving side of the night elves and some calls for savagery (especially from horde fans - regardless of motive), and seeing their is no playable elven group that focuses on this niche, I propose going forward blizzard create a worgen night elf allied race to focus on that.

Truly night elves as the progenitor Elf race and the originals, should have all facets of the Elves represented in various aspects and societies of the race - this is what makes the night elf unique and not just a forest elf focusing on druidism and forests, nor just a dark elf focusing on arcane magic, dark night and all the other stereotypes.

While the next night elf allied race I would link to the naga, the worgen one would be perfect to fill the spot, also allowing the Gilnean worgen to focus more on the human kingdoms, reclaiming Gilneas etc, and just having a friendship bond with the night elves, while the night elf worgen to be the ones that relay relate to the druidic night elves as allies.

Night elf worgen would fill both the savage niche and forest elf niche perfectly. Like a naga race, they'd have a unique humanoid form. So unlike Gilnean Worgen, don't need to be forced to worgen form only in combat. The elf form should be a night elf with more animal features that you can customise, feathered arms like Malfurion's model, animal feet, sometimes claws etc. They should also have a unique worgen form to distinguish them from Gilnean worgen.

Their story is basically the night elf worgen that were trapped away in the Emerald dream, are now being freed and restored thanks to the recent advances and success with the Emerald dream, Scythe of Elune, and revelations of the Goddess Elune.


Meanwhile the actual night elves can continue to develop. Urban environments are largely for Highborne and Priests, just like in pre-sundering times, and forest rural environments are dominated by the druidic culture with some priest assistance reminiscent of the long vigil era - players get the best of both worlds. interesting plots and involvements that keep the Illidari demon hunters in the mix albeit on the fringe of societies - but together they are the night elf people. Allied race like the Nightborne, the Naz'dorei and the NElf Worgen continue on, giving players increasingly interesting and exciting customisations to play with.

Equilibrium in Future Night Elf Society

It was Queen Azshara who led them. Then after the sundering when they split, each community had it's leaders, for the main kaldorei group it was Tyrande - Malfurion was saving/healing the world primarily, Tyrande led the people as High Priestess - they and the druids were not joined at the hip - they had totally separate lives and functions - with their race and shared responsibility of the Long Vigil the things that held them together. I suspect the first night elf leader was a Priestess too, and Azshara ascending to prime Monarch was because of how incredibly brilliant she was, I would wager she captured the hearts of her people and inspired them, she showed the great benefits of the arcane, a field she was extremely good at and through which extraordinary things could be achieved. When a society becomes more interested in things and stops valuing the true unquantifiable treasures of life, it will go off kilter - to the night elves, the Queen and the wonders she could pioneer became more important even than their goddess and revere of the wilds. And so Zin'Azshari was renamed.

Society Development and Future
Back then, Azshara's arcane leadership and the progress it produced must have amazed them to great levels of awe previously reserved for gods (Elune, demi god Cenarius), but this time the power was in the hands of the night elf – a very heady development for a once primitive people emerging (or awakening as they call it) with god like powers.

This is why arcane development can never capture or snare the hearts of the night elves like it did in the past (they've been there, to the top and fallen too, it's not new any longer), it is also why I feel a fully developed Highborne caste amongst the Darnassians today should not result in the levels of arcane devotion amongst Night elves capable of usurping or undermining that held by the people and druids for nature and the wild gods or that held by the people and priests for Elune like it did towards the end of that era. So those who object to greater NElf arcane development have nothing to fear from a natural rise and advancement of kaldorei arcane institutions returning. it won't spread arcane dependency in the whole race like happened in the pre-sundering era around the invasion era or like exists in the smaller blood elven or Nightborne societies. Or at least it shouldn't. I don't think any night elf (unless they're unhinged) would believe this would happen. Firstly the night elves are much bigger than the other elven off shoots and are the wisest of the groups (most long-lived too alongside the Nightborne), they are also the most complete and so would be model like, having large sections in each area elves are good at, and will be entirely focused on elven life, while the like of Thalassians have always been part of a larger picture involving humans, trolls and orcs etc. And will continue, the Nightborne joining them would likely share that fate, unless blizzard choose to write them more involved with night elf affairs and the night elf world.

This is why it makes me believe that new night elf society in the post-vigil era, i.e. the current era would be far more balanced than before, and actually eventually restore the best of the pre-sundering era and exceed it. Cities would be the arcane centres and frontier of development and progress for the race, and the places where Highborne would dominate and the priesthood would be intertwined, while the forests would be dominated by druids with the priesthood intertwined - having in a sorts a pre-sundering setting in cities, and a long vigil one in the forests, but an equilibrium, a balance of sorts and harmony that neither previous periods could achieve at their heights- And so this would eventually go the furthest. Gone and never coming back would be the days all the people were swayed into arcane excesses, neither likely to return are the days when total abstinence of the arcane practice and only nature dependence would be the only way to live. The first state became like that because of the Queen and the novelty of what the arcane could do, the second state was because of the Legion and the need desire to stop them.

Night Elf Empire Would Not Return
The night elves no longer need to rule the world or dominate it for this future to happen either, so a night elf empire would never return (and that is not what I mean by best ever) – arcane development will grow, but more responsibly which would also lead to greater long term benefits and progress, and even with an enigmatic Azshara like arcane leader, the people are not primitive any longer, they’re not going to be wow’d by wonders into exalting the arcane on a pedestal, only the Highborne caste and arcane mages will, it won't capture the whole society like before, but then neither would druidism or Elunism, regions would have greater influence of one over the other (like cities and Highborne zones would have higher arcane influence, forests higher nature ones) but the revere for the wilds, and trust in the goddess as well as delight tin the arcane would be equally esteemed, and the experts in the each of these fields (i.e. the mage, priest and druid) would be greatly revered –

What would happen is that the people would have roughly the same reverence for all three, the power of the arcane is phenomenal, but as wielders of it, elves have flaws they must work hard at managing -this keeps you humble, the goddess is a goddess afterall, and that’s incredibly amazing in and of itself, Elune continues to do things for the night elves in ancient time it was her most ruthless phase that helped them and their Moonguard mage armies conquer those what sought to destroy them handing them Kalimdor, and they’ve never forgotten that. Finally nature, nature is what sustains and keeps them alive, keeps them balanced – the fate of the Nightborne is a warning to all elves of what can happen if you indulge in the arcane unchecked and without balance, and nature is the only thing that can remedy that.

So the arcane provides progress and development, the Priesthood humility, discipline and mental health, the druids balance, harmony and physical health and vitality. This is what there civilization would be, regardless if it is led by one individual or several. My preference would be several. Personally, Tyrande Whisperwind would lead the Priesthood Order of Elune, Malfurion the Druids, a restored Prince Farondis the Highborne and civil leadership. when it comes to matters that threaten all night elves the council will operate in concert.

They'll have their own zones and realms - with different communities and community leaders - rather than a monarch like before, it would more be a case of the Orders dominating, and then local government - this wouldn't be as effective for development as leadership under one great leader, but they are no longer in a hurry anymore.

Summary on the Other Elf groups
Night elves will be closest to blood elves and Nightborne in the city areas, but it would be different - blood elf society is full arcane integrated, not as highly arcanised as the Nightborne were - but the Nightborne are a small group, you are better off think of them like a group of Highbonre who are a city state and prefer to work with the blood elves, the main Highborne group drives the kaldorei urban, development and international relations with far greater resources and numbers. The Nightborne won't be some unique expression of Elves if they continue in their original expression because that's not unique, it's entirely Kaldorei - so there function would be similar to Highmountain, Void elves, Lightforged, Mag'har, essentially a side group that allows you to play a different customisation, and in their case gives the horde access to night elf like models and lore.

if they want to be unique, they have to find a new purpose, chronomancy is a possibility, but forging a new shared destiny with the blood elves is another - but it isn't ultimately unique either because it's just swapping night elven for blood elven.

No one should expect the elven groups to be totally unique to each other, yet I find this expectation only amongst elf fans. Trolls all share a lot of similarities, so do all the human races, same with the dawrven ones, the Tauren ones, the Draenei ones despite their differences,. Night elves are the parent elf group, to expect night elves not to have an arcane side or their cities not to have a culture t hat also embraces the arcane and thus view it as "too similar to blood elves just because of that" is disingenuous - night elves uniqueness is in their package, their nocturnal nature, their star/moon based culture and their harmony of the magical elven traits.. It is not that blood elves have arcane and night elves have nature - I keep mentioning this is not DnD, the vision here is bigger, more unique and is more conducive to better roleplaying. Races have more than one thing, and race types will share things, for the elves, it's the arcane that's shared, it cannot therefore be completely absent I the night elvs, and it's great importance means that the night elves will have areas where this is common and prevalent, the cities are the natural choice.

[Hitei]

Lots of confusion and inconsistent perceptions of Night elves around, I thought produce a knowledgebase to help iron something out and challenge some mis-conceptions I have noticed held by players on this topic. This is the purpose of this topic.

Why would you post a large lore infodump in the subforum made for discussion topics rather than the dedicated subforum for lore?

[Beloren]

/yawn

Yardy blah blah - yes night elves are magical, , they can do magic very well, even if their society doesn't do it much as a whole.. you want us to know that they still have great magic users amongst them and its part of their legacy. WE GET IT !!!!

It's like a broken record now, are you incapable of talking about anything else? You and your bestie make these arguments in every post, who are you trying to convince so badly? The naysayers? IF they don't read your essays, nothing is going to change, they're going to skip reading this and disagree with you, no matter how many points.

I vote for a Night elf megathread, if to do anything but shut you up.

[Varodoc]

Darnassian elves = Wood elves.
Highborne/Nightborne/Blood elves = Arcane elves.
Void elves/TBC Blood elves = Edgy elves.

It's not that complicated.

[Mace]

/yawn

Yardy blah blah - yes night elves are magical, , they can do magic very well, even if their society doesn't do it much as a whole.. you want us to know that they still have great magic users amongst them and its part of their legacy. WE GET IT !!!!

It's like a broken record now, are you incapable of talking about anything else? You and your bestie make these arguments in every post, who are you trying to convince so badly? The naysayers? IF they don't read your essays, nothing is going to change, they're going to skip reading this and disagree with you, no matter how many points.

I vote for a Night elf megathread, if to do anything but shut you up.

erm, this topic is here to discuss this because it is a major issue that often derails other topics, and people tend to complain about that. So rather than confuse or compound other topics, I instead have decided to dedicate a topic to this, so people can not only discuss, but get more informed.

I have taken a considerable time (for a forum), to put this together and write it. I would appreciate a constructive contribution rather than this rudeness. If you don't like the issue on night elves then at least be honest?

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Why would you post a large lore infodump in the subforum made for discussion topics rather than the dedicated subforum for lore?

Maybe, I thought about it, maybe a mod can redirect it there, but on the other hand, it's a general thing too, about common mis-conceptions.

[Illusions]

Indeed - should be moved to Lore section instead.

However - without sources, all of this is opinion piece as well. A knowledge base is meaningless if it's just one person's opinion of how night elves should be, and you're not going to debunk myths or misconceptions by saying 'actually nah this is how it is'. I've seen many people cherrypick bits of lore that fit their narrative here (something you also mentioned) while missing the general mark. You didn't even bring out bits of lore.

Furthermore, what devs intended back then (even in WC3) can change over time. The problem people mostly have with night elves is their inconsistency and odd takes (eg orc army/shredders ambushing night elves in their own forests in Wolfheart or smth??).

Also, I think many forget how long of a time 10k years is - the society can go through many different changes. On topic of Arcane, IMO Night Elves are starting to warm up to the idea, but there'll still be a good amount of elves who will be against/skeptical of it. I'd say after War of Thorns, the magi who held open the portals or fought on Darkshore are lauded as heroes, however if you're going to RP some mage who flippantly uses Arcane, you're likely going to be chastised/thrown bad looks at.

I also haven't heard Arcane & Civilization isn't for Night Elves. Who said that, where? Pre-sundering, they had the most advanced civilization, and used Arcane frequently. That doesn't mean they couldn't have been savage or ruthless at the same time. They returned to the wilds, but that doesn't mean loss of civilization, rather a break away from the Highborne way of living. A world-shattering event is enough to keep a very long grudge over Arcane, however that doesn't mean something so intrinsically part of Night Elves is not for them -- the usage of it may be, though.

[Mace]

Darnassian elves = Wood elves.
Highborne/Nightborne/Blood elves = Arcane elves.
Void elves/TBC Blood elves = Edgy elves.

It's not that complicated.

Very crude generalisation, but I think most of this was to show that you shouldn't really generalise like that.. but it sort of works. However I wouldn't call the Darnassian priests wood elves though

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.

However - without sources, all of this is opinion piece as well. A knowledge base is meaningless if it's just one person's opinion of how night elves should be, .

Without source? I kick off with a developer interview.

I mention direct references from Chornicles, War of the Ancients, what we see in game, from WC3 - please point out to me what this lack of source is?

In a few cases, I give an opinion - but I say as much, stating quite clearly "it is likely" or "it is probable" " in my opinion" - and this is always a conclusion drawn from a fact I've stated.

How can you literally ignore EVERYTHING I've written and make that assessment. It's actually rude to me the writer.

[Saltysquidoon]

Conflating dev interview when they said they wanted the nelvs to be a combination of DnD forest elves (nature-loving hippies with bows) and drow (matriarchal and brutal) with some conspiracy that it secretly meant they were always supposed to be a 50/50 combo of nature and arcane is not accurate especially not when discussing it in the context of WCIII.

What is even the point of the OP? That blizzard inventing a group of highborne that had been hiding dire'maul as an excuse for playable mages is (despite explicit insistence they aren't viewed positively by the greater night elf society) is somehow a key to proving blizzard always intended night elf society to be focused on wielding magic?

[Illusions]

Without source? I kick off with a developer interview.

An old source that was the thought process for creating night elves - as I said, the idea of what night elves can also change for developers.

I mention direct references from Chornicles, War of the Ancients, what we see in game, from WC3 - please point out to me what this lack of source is?

Direct references without references to actually where you pulled the information from. If I said 'it's also stated that Night Elves used to slaughter everyone who used Arcane' and then later say 'lol it's a direct reference to Chronicles, WotA, what we see in game', it's still moot. (for the record - this iirc hasn't been stated and was just to illustrate how ppl can twist meanings).

The point of a source is so that you can validate what you bring forth, and for people to then decide whether you are miswording or misreading what has actually been told. Misinterpretations happen and many ppl twist the lore to fit their narrative, including you.

In a few cases, I give an opinion - but I say as much, stating quite clearly "it is likely" or "it is probable" " in my opinion" - and this is always a conclusion drawn from a fact I've stated.

How can you literally ignore EVERYTHING I've written and make that assessment. It's actually rude to me the writer.

I'm not ignoring everything since getting into a debate about all of this is too exhausting to do it all over again, it has always become cyclic and pointless. So I instead pointed out your lack of sources. There are bits I find correct and bits I'd actually require sources for, because 'dude just trust me' is not a good source. Your entire post, however long it took you to write, is moot without sources to back up your claims you made.

[Shiza]

Instead of focussing too much on the arcane which was established as pathetic and weak, Blizz should focus on the Wardens and night elf demon hunters, which are two aspects of Night Elf Culture which still have some of their pride intact.

[Mace]

Instead of focussing too much on the arcane which was established as pathetic and weak, Blizz should focus on the Wardens and night elf demon hunters, which are two aspects of Night Elf Culture which still have some of their pride intact.

I think blizzard should go through the various parts of the Night elves. Currently the Preisthood and the arcane have less to them than say the druids. Rather than discard the others they just need to show them stronger. Druids do come off as rather pansy in Warcraft, especially in cataclysm in Felwood, but let's just say their strengths are not in being bad ass - still I liked th druid in Val'Sharah, Thaon, but he was a feral druid, and fit the part well.

I also think the Highborne can be pretty cool, I liked the Farondis version very much, it's how I imagine highbonre who weren't super arrogant or recklessly following the Queen into the demons hands were actually like. To me Farondis is quite cool, and I think they should use him a lot.

Wardens should get more focus too, I agree. I'm not as keen on Maiev as some are, certainly they need to expand past Maiev only, Legion was a good start.

Demon hunters is another area, now the Illidari are not the betrayers the nighte elves believed, and have actually helped the race inspite of their brethren maligning them, what happens now? How are the two groups going forward? I'd like to see more of that.

For me, Highborne, Wardens, Priestesses, Illidari - don't show up much in game amongst the Darnassians, that society can have some intereting developments for sure. While the druids are mainly part of the Cenarion faction, and the demon hunters part of the Illidari faction, the priests and highhborne are basically the main groups of the Darnassian faction. Yet, what happened with the Moonguard remnant? The dreamwardens too? And how are relations with the rest of the Nightborne of Suramar going, now they've joined the horde?

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An old source that was the thought process for creating night elves - as I said, the idea of what night elves can also change for developers.

while that is true, there is no indication that it has. I think people simply mistook the slow development or lack to feel night elves were set in on e way, so it surprised them when Highborne were introduced in 1.1 and 4.0, or the other sides of the Night elves like the Illidari, Highborne, Nightborne, Moonguard , Wardens showed up a lot in Legion - however, that is aprt of established lore, it should no longer surprise them.

Direct references without references to actually where you pulled the information from. If I said 'it's also stated that Night Elves used to slaughter everyone who used Arcane' and then later say 'lol it's a direct reference to Chronicles, WotA, what we see in game', it's still moot. (for the record - this iirc hasn't been stated and was just to illustrate how ppl can twist meanings).

Let me ask you a question, are you unfamiliar with any of the things I point out? Have you yourself not seen these things in game and read about some of them? If you haven't, please say which ones, and I will try to find page numbers and sections or point out which quests or areas you can find the information in game.

I am not however going to link and post tons of pics like I have previously done, as I noticed people who demand the proof, just ignore them when given and simply complain at me for posting too much. The effort and time it takes to gather this info, format, link edit etc, is not small. This is not a paid piece of work for a new article or official document, and it's my time and life spent - if you give me good reason to go through that effort, I might just.

However if you are actually unfamiliar with these in lore, then let me know, I'lll see what I can do. THis is mainly targeted at people who actually no the information, but selectively choose to ignore it to focus on their impression and idea of things.

I'm not ignoring everything since getting into a debate about all of this is too exhausting to do it all over again, it has always become cyclic and pointless. So I instead pointed out your lack of sources. There are bits I find correct and bits I'd actually require sources for, because 'dude just trust me' is not a good source. Your entire post, however long it took you to write, is moot without sources to back up your claims you made.

My sources are:

Warcraft 3 manual http://classic.battle.net/war3/nightelf/ - mentioned constantly throughout the post
Warcraft 3 Dev Interview https://web.archive.org/web/20010205...667651,00.html - quoted and linked.
World of Warcraft War of the Ancients Trilogy : https://www.amazon.co.uk/WarCraft-Ancients-Archive
World of Warcraft Chronicles: https://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Warcr...icle-Hardcover
World of Warcraft The Ultimate Visual Guide: https://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Warcr...e-Visual-Guide
Warcraft 3 Reign of Chaos and expansion The Frozen Throne - mentioned several times - available for download or purchase
World of Warcraft Version 1 (nicknamed Classic) - Game available to play on Classic Servers
World of Warcraft Versions 1.1 Dire Maul - part of the classic release
world of Warcraft Wolfheart Novel : https://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Warcraft-Wolfheart
World of Warcraft Cataclysm Version 4.0 - in game content focused on Night elves.
world of Warcraft Illidan Novel: https://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Warcraft-Illidan
world of Warcraft Legion Version 7.0 - in game content

References to Night elves exist in other bbooks and comics including
Warcraft Warcrimes
Warcraft: Blizzard Legends Graphic novel: https://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Warcr...izzard-Legends
Audio comics and short novellas available at https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/story

[Shiza]

I think blizzard should go through the various parts of the Night elves. Currently the Preisthood and the arcane have less to them than say the druids. Rather than discard the others they just need to show them stronger. Druids do come off as rather pansy in Warcraft, especially in cataclysm in Felwood, but let's just say their strengths are not in being bad ass - still I liked th druid in Val'Sharah, Thaon, but he was a feral druid, and fit the part well.

I also think the Highborne can be pretty cool, I liked the Farondis version very much, it's how I imagine highbonre who weren't super arrogant or recklessly following the Queen into the demons hands were actually like. To me Farondis is quite cool, and I think they should use him a lot.

Wardens should get more focus too, I agree. I'm not as keen on Maiev as some are, certainly they need to expand past Maiev only, Legion was a good start.

Demon hunters is another area, now the Illidari are not the betrayers the nighte elves believed, and have actually helped the race inspite of their brethren maligning them, what happens now? How are the two groups going forward? I'd like to see more of that.

For me, Highborne, Wardens, Priestesses, Illidari - don't show up much in game amongst the Darnassians, that society can have some intereting developments for sure. While the druids are mainly part of the Cenarion faction, and the demon hunters part of the Illidari faction, the priests and highhborne are basically the main groups of the Darnassian faction. Yet, what happened with the Moonguard remnant? The dreamwardens too? And how are relations with the rest of the Nightborne of Suramar going, now they've joined the horde?

Farondis was cool, but I think the Highborne ship as sailed after the Moonguard not joining the Night Elf Society after the Genocide. The problem with Druids is, that they predominantly shine when they are neutral and not alligned to the Alliance or Darnassus. Malfurion acting as an Alliance Character is a new development in all of World of Warcraft. I think this makes Druids less sympathetic, as most people would rather want their character stick to their race than to their butchers. I think Blizzard is on a good path with the Wardens. They got quite alot of Screentime in Legion and BfA compared to the past and Maiev officially returned to Night Elf Society, fixing Knaaks bullshit hate train. I think Demon Hunters should generally return to their races since the Legion threat is currently suppressed since it would make the most sense, especially with the Night elves. They are NOT some altruistic I love everyone organisation like the Argent Dawn or the Cenarion Circle which cut off all ties to their races, especially the Night Elf Demon Hunters who we have a backstory from are specifically motivated by protecting and avenging their race. They are pragmatist when it comes to neutrality, not altruist. Altruis is an interesting character who should be bought into the Alliance.

There is also the problem of class identities. You simply can't play much of what the Night Elves have to offer. You can be Mages, which are something rather niche to the Night Elf Comm, Druids who are predominantly neutrals and hunters, who are just footsoldiers of their race. Moon Priests are playable, though there could be a compromiss with Paladins representing warrior moon priestesses. Wardens are not playable, due to the lack of an appropriate transmog option (which is why I hope that the heritage armor will be Warden themed). Not to forget that Blizz has no interest in making the Night Elves shine. Most lead developers tend to favor the Horde when it comes to story telling and even if this focus often puts the Horde into a bad spot, it isn't deniable that they get the brunt of any story development. The Night Elves are stuck into the role of a punching back to show off how awesome the Horde is. Even this own creepy Neckbeard guy who made the shit hunter class order hall which was the weakest of the pack and yet still got promoted probably due to being white and having a dick used the one moment the Night Elves had in the entire BFA Expansion to make his Self-Insert shine and look cool and badass and only backed off after the community strongarmed him into it.

The lesson learned by BfA that healthy Alliance and Night elf development can only come through harassing the developers at any step of the path.

[yana]

I envy your ability to write many, many, many, oh its so many, MANY words, and yet in all those phrases and paragraphs, you dont realy say, state, ilustrate or even exemplify anything even remotly toughtfull, concise or plain logical.
It's a wall of nothing that contradicts itself besides contradicting know lore

[Manariel]

I said it prior Mace, but your mistake is that you conflate the lack of Arcane and Urban Civilization with the lack of Civilization.

But one doesn't need cities nor Arcane to be a very advanced civilization. And as of Warcraft III, the Night Elves had all the elements needed to be an extremely interesting civilization, far more than "magical elves number X".

Blizzzard squandered their potential and is clearly more at ease with urban fantasy when it comes to elves (like a lot of people in the Western World, really - I don't think anyone can escape the imprint that urbanization and the Western point of view on civilization has on us).

But what the Night Elves need is to be put in a good light while being made far more distinct from the Blood Elves and Nightborns, not to become pale copy of them.

Especially in a time of global climate catastrophe approaching. The Night Elves survived an Extermination Event (the Sundering) and decided to fundamentally change their civilization. It'd be a terrible message to have them revert to their old ways because they look cooler than what they have in the current period - at least to me.

[Mace]

Farondis was cool, but I think the Highborne ship as sailed after the Moonguard not joining the Night Elf Society after the Genocide.

I hope not, I suspect its just slow development on blizzs part, it would be quite cool to see the Moonguard established in the main Darnassian society that is shaping up to be the most powerful Night elf group. Highborne Shen'dralar are mostly scholars and creative types with magic. Moonguard, they're the mage equivalent of Sentinels and Demon hunters, but with arcane magic. Them and Farondis would be cool. To be fiar blizzard just hasn't updated any broken isle group outside the playable factions - and them only with regards to the factions they've joined, no update on on anything else in the region - which is typical once blizzard leaves an expansion area.

The problem with Druids is, that they predominantly shine when they are neutral and not alligned to the Alliance or Darnassus. Malfurion acting as an Alliance Character is a new development in all of World of Warcraft. I think this makes Druids less sympathetic, as most people would rather want their character stick to their race than to their butchers.

That's true to a point. Because I don't really see it as a problem. Druids were alweays neutral types, I'm not sure how many people picked it up in WC3, but they joined because all of nature was in danger - in the night elf lore, we are told they typically do not involve themselves with the affairs of the Night elves, but do their own work. Most players don't realise this though. They think the druids are the Night elves, and it's one cohesive society that's always worked together - this is incorrect
It isn't, the priesthood has basically led the Night elves, the druids have been about nature and the world.

1. Thinking the druids are the night elves
2. Thinking that the Darnassians are all there is to the night elves.

I think Blizzard is on a good path with the Wardens. They got quite alot of Screentime in Legion and BfA compared to the past and Maiev officially returned to Night Elf Society, fixing Knaaks bullshit hate train

Agreed, I enjoyed seeing the wardensf inally visible in world of Warcraft, just as I enjoyed seeing the arcane civilization of the night elve sin Suramar and enjoyed seeing the personalities of the Highborne in a noble state through the Farondis. It was also nice seeing the demon hunters. While it was nice experiencing more of the druid stuff in Val'Sharah, I found the other Night elf showings more interesting and I was more intrigued to by them.

The end result of a major character I don't think is decided by writers like Knaak or Golden, it is blizzard that decides this, the writers just write the fleshed out story of it.

. I think Demon Hunters should generally return to their races since the Legion threat is currently suppressed since it would make the most sense, especially with the Night elves. They are NOT some altruistic I love everyone organisation like the Argent Dawn or the Cenarion Circle which cut off all ties to their races, especially the Night Elf Demon Hunters who we have a backstory from are specifically motivated by protecting and avenging their race. They are pragmatist when it comes to neutrality, not altruist. Altruis is an interesting character who should be bought into the Alliance.

100% agreed here. They offer an endge tot he Night elves not in the druids or the priests. The sentinels come closer, but it's a different angle, with fel wielding etc. It, like the highbornce have much room for nuance and complexity too. Demon Hunters greatly love their people and their world, it's why they were driven to such extreme to bring downt he Legion, they're flesh is scarreed and corrupted with stinky demonic power with their iron resolve to break any demonic hold.

Yet their very corruption is frightening and harmful - no night elf would or elf for that matter would want that burden, yet it is quite admirable too - can you see young night elf males enamoured by illidan's heroism and the Illidari, and wanting to follow? Yet wider night elf society not willing to fully incorporate them - but would honour their sacrifice and apologise for their mistreatment... it certainly presents opportunities I would love them to explore.

There is also the problem of class identities. You simply can't play much of what the Night Elves have to offer. You can be Mages, which are something rather niche to the Night Elf Comm, Druids who are predominantly neutrals and hunters, who are just footsoldiers of their race. Moon Priests are playable, though there could be a compromiss with Paladins representing warrior moon priestesses. Wardens are not playable, due to the lack of an appropriate transmog option (which is why I hope that the heritage armor will be Warden themed). Not to forget that Blizz has no interest in making the Night Elves shine. Most lead developers tend to favor the Horde when it comes to story telling and even if this focus often puts the Horde into a bad spot, it isn't deniable that they get the brunt of any story development. The Night Elves are stuck into the role of a punching back to show off how awesome the Horde is. Even this own creepy Neckbeard guy who made the shit hunter class order hall which was the weakest of the pack and yet still got promoted probably due to being white and having a dick used the one moment the Night Elves had in the entire BFA Expansion to make his Self-Insert shine and look cool and badass and only backed off after the community strongarmed him into it.

The lesson learned by BfA that healthy Alliance and Night elf development can only come through harassing the developers at any step of the path.

Now you're getting to the interesting stuff. This is the the problem here.

But at the heart of it is "blizz has no interest in making the Night elves shine" -- this is their biggest and only real achilles heal. It is such an about turn from their introduction in Wc3, the TFT and the WotA novels (even though the decline started there) - in wow, I have always maintained it was because they were in the alliance and they were pushing horde races. Notice how no alliance race really ever shone, notice how powerful and shining the horde races were. People think that having to kill GArrosh the warchief is evidence ot he contrarty, but those people don't understand storytelling. The horde was the villain, but the horde was also the hero, it as horde centric totally.

This drive started in the planning and development for TBc, to get players to play the horde more, however despite the horde now being the majority faction, and greatly outnumbering the alliance in end game content it seems that alliance development and shining is mainly focused on humans. 8.1 seemed to mark a turn around, but then they said that was it, Tyrande got her revenge, and the Night elves compensation was Darkshore.

Which just goes tot show their mindset regarding developing the race.

Anyway, I don't think their current approach of following set heroes and only going to races when a n expansion theme needs it or requires it as focus is the best approach, who wants to wait another 6 years to get more Night elf focus? They need to come up with a means of giving the races continuous development throughout an expansion and each expansion.. like the Race campaigns that keep coming up on the forums.

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Ah welcome Manariel, you are one of the reasons I made this topic, to give this space to discusss such things.

I said it prior Mace, but your mistake is that you conflate the lack of Arcane and Urban Civilization with the lack of Civilization.

No, I don't, while we can argue we can interprete the Long Vigil group as a civilization of sorts, it's more an operating society and culture - as the civilization is destroyed and is not repaired by these night elves for 10,000 years, yet other night elves continue to live in that civilization in the 2 remaining cities standing but hidden from the main night elf group.

But one doesn't need cities nor Arcane to be a very advanced civilization. And as of Warcraft III, the Night Elves had all the elements needed to be an extremely interesting civilization, far more than "magical elves number X".

Agreed, Dragons are very advanced, yet don't do/have cities - and yes Night elves have all the elements - they have a civilization - you see it in Suramar, it's not Kaldorei because the Nightborne are called Shal'dorei, - it's the civilization. Now culture within a civilization can change, wanna bet as night elves slowly rebuild their civilization the culture would not be the same we saw in Suramar which is invasion period culture of the pre-sundering era (the pre-sundering era had several periods - WotA trilogy and Suramar in Legion 7.0 focus on the invasion period culture of the civilization, but the civilization has other periods.


Point being that they already have a civilization it dates back over 10,000 years, a portion of it is being re-established with Darnassus, in the new post-vigil culture which would develop as the story progresses.

Blizzzard squandered their potential and is clearly more at ease with urban fantasy when it comes to elves (like a lot of people in the Western World, really - I don't think anyone can escape the imprint that urbanization and the Western point of view on civilization has on us).

wha tdo you mean by squandered their potential? I have thought a lot about it, I suspect, you , like Ravenmoon were thinking that the potential in Night elves was as a forest race of elves.

I don't think that was ever blizzard's vision for them. They didn't want a typical forest elf, actually they didn't want a typical dark elf.. they set out to make dark elves, not forest elves, the forest elf marrying was the twist, but it was a mergin rather than a subversion.

I know some of the big ngiht elf fans use to talk about some pure forest society or liviging up in trees and hanging down from them. But that was never the company's vision for the Night elf race. This is why they are night elve and not wood elves or forest elves. But some have taken the intense forest side to mean that and therefore think it is waste when it is not taken fully in that direction.

Ravenmoon proposed they do a pure forest elf race or sub-race, to embody that side of the night elves fully, maybe an allied race type - I believe this is what the half elven Cenarians really are, and the night fae are that.. but it is not what the NIght elve are.

I think people struggle with elves because they have preset conceptions of tehm from other fantasies, you have high elves, you have wood elves, you have dark elves, so it's hard for them to view any unique form of elf without boiling it down to one of those groups.

But the night elves aren't pure forest elves, it's only half of hteir identity, blizzard I tink have helped themselves because from Cataclysm onwards they really have made an effort to show other sides of the night elves like the Highborne, the Demon Hunters, the Wardens, the Moon Priestesses is the only part left for a real full disclosure.

But what the Night Elves need is to be put in a good light while being made far more distinct from the Blood Elves and Nightborns, not to become pale copy of them.

Why do you think showing the arcane civilization of the Night elves is a copy of the blood elves? This is a part of the night elves from the start, before the blood elves were fleshed out as their own distinct group in TBC.

Furthermore, The NIGHTBORNE are the night elf civilization. night elven civilization is not going to be greatly different from Nightborne in terms of urban structure and layout, because the Nightborne are entirely based on the Kaldorei, it's like the high elves and blood elves or blood elves and void elves.

They are not meant to be super distinct entities. The Nightborne are a sub-race, an allied race, not a 3rd category of elf. The Nightborne are just like the Highmountain, Void elves, Zandalari, Kul'tirans, Lightforged, they are a different group of the core race you play. They will have some differences... attitudes in the night elf and Nightborne will be different - based on how they've lived - one was perfectly preserved in a bubble, the others all lived in a post sundered world.

One has actively joined up with the horde and blood elves - and are doing things in the mindset of the horde, this is going to affect them. How much is up to blizzard, do they make Nightborne literally Night elves on the horde - or do they make them purple blood elves. So far the only aspect of the Nightborne we don't see in the Night elves is the chronomancy magic - warpcasting and fields magic, that's new at the level the Nighborne have taken it, just like the void magic studies and thhe level the void elves have taken it is something that the blood elves don't have. However the arcane mastery, the cities, the civilization of the Nightborne is all Night elven.

The Night elves don't need a new one, frankly neither do the Nightborne unless you don't want to make the Night elven based. but if you think the solution is take the Night elven arcane stuff and chop it away, so it is exclusive to the horde and the blood elves, then I strongly disagree. I happen to like that aspect of the Night elves, and while I like the Nightborne because they show that aspect of the Night elves, I certainly don't want it gone from the Night elves only to have something unrelated or fixed to only the forest elf side.

Especially in a time of global climate catastrophe approaching. The Night Elves survived an Extermination Event (the Sundering) and decided to fundamentally change their civilization. It'd be a terrible message to have them revert to their old ways because they look cooler than what they have in the current period - at least to me.

I think you find that one of the Night elven groups felt they had no choice but to adapt given the circumstance, their civilization is in ruins, destroyed by the demons and finished off by the sundering and they can't use their arcane magic to rebuild it - so they make do with what they have for 10k years.

That 10 k years is not spent building a new civilization and a new life - this is not what the lore shows me.. that 10 years is spent in a Long Vigil - it is mandate period with an assignment, the Night elves are on a mission, they're dedicating themselves not to building a new way of life and continuing a new existence, but to protect an d guard their world. They are working with dragon flights, ancients and wild gods durin g this period. It's a watch and alert.

My point is there is no civilization to develop, they have their civilization and for 10k years, that group of night elves don't bother to do anything about it. The other 2 groups continue exclusively in civilization and don't bother with anything outside it.

After WC3, the long vigil ends, we see them beginning to return to civilization, the new city Daranssus, is built with structures and buildings from 10k years ago, customs from the night elves in the pre-sundering era return. NONE of the wooden buildings the night elves build are new to the Long vigil - we see the Lodge near Lake keltheril is well over 10k years old, its a rural lodge, and it has the same style of all the other Night elven rural buildings - neither the fancy marble buildings or the rural ones change, they literally are doing stuff like they've always done. It's wood in these areas, because the elaborate cities like Suramar and Zin'Azshari are built with a combination of Arcane and nature magic working in tandem. An expression of the duality of the Night elves.


What doesn't return is the degree of arcane magic. And while arcane magic returns, this new night elf society is far healthier and balanced than either of the past eras, it's more whole and complete than the long vigil which was entirely missing the arcane in their society, and it is healthier and more balanced than the END Of the pre-sundering era (note I said the end of that era, the invasion period - where the arcane was often recklessely used and abused under an addicted Queen

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@Manariel I really don't see why the Night elves should get a different from of civilization or architecture when they're the original race with it. If anything, the Nightborne should be given a whole new palette and look that no longer has anything to do with the Night elves if you want them to be totally separate. But I don't see the point of that either, because the Nightborne are a night elven sub-race group, this is what they are.

Perhaps you want the horde elves to be something different and totally separate from the alliance elves. I don't think that is the right approach anyway, it is fuelled by partisan sectarianism and segregation - the whole reason the races cross factions is to give you a taste of what one faction has on the other.. The horde don't get Nightborne so they can still night elf lore and history , and the Night elves should now be exclusive treehuggers because horde players don't want them having magical cities, and prolific arcane magic - now they've got night elves on their side, let's make sure the alliance doesn't get the good and fancy stuff. Somehow I don't think that was the point of the Nightborne nor their reason for going horde.

[Arikara]

So much effort, only to be so thoroughly wrong.

TL;DR: Wc3 Nelves only good Nelves. Abandoning ten thousand years of anti-arcane tradition because "lol the humans are doing it i guess it's fine" just for the sake of having flashy sparkly magic instead of flowery green magic is not, and never will be, a good direction.

The issue lies in those nebulous ten thousand years being treated as a static time where nothing of note happened or changed, and the Nelves being relegated to irrelevance by the developers. What should have happened was a confrontation between the elves and other magic users wherein the Nelves insist on very strict discipline for arcane users, leading to something like a questline where the issue is brought up, examined, and resolved in a believable manner. They tried to do this with tauren priests and paladins when those were introduced in Cata, but paid no attention to the heresy that is Nelf mages, despite that being a much, much larger breach of lore and racial identity. If they'd so much as bothered to aknowledge it and the surrounding cornerstone of culture that has supposedly been central to their entire society for such a long time, in an in-character display, rather than handwave it between expansions, then that's one thing and might have worked, but they didn't, and by all rights Nelf mages should not exist.

[Shiza]

I hope not, I suspect its just slow development on blizzs part, it would be quite cool to see the Moonguard established in the main Darnassian society that is shaping up to be the most powerful Night elf group. Highborne Shen'dralar are mostly scholars and creative types with magic. Moonguard, they're the mage equivalent of Sentinels and Demon hunters, but with arcane magic. Them and Farondis would be cool. To be fiar blizzard just hasn't updated any broken isle group outside the playable factions - and them only with regards to the factions they've joined, no update on on anything else in the region - which is typical once blizzard leaves an expansion area.

Yeah, lets be quite honest, the ship has sailed. The ship has already sailed directly when the Shen'dralar were re-introduced to Night elf Society and there first and most prominent appereance was to make them look miserable and pathetic to satisfy toxic horde power fantasies. Which is probably befitting, as the same is also the case with Night elves as a whole. Though quite franky. I think this is the reason why Activision should just fire most of the narrative team, because the WoW narrative team is the shame of Activision-Blizzard. After Blizzard made actual steps and commitments to diversity with Overwatch and its cast, it is a shame that it seems like lead developers seem to think that the most desirable power fantasy of the Horde, which is a faction that feeds into toxic masculine power fantasies to begin with, is to squash and utterly humiliate a race that has strong themes of matriachy and amazonian warrior cultures. If you look at most Horde vs Night Elf plotlines, the politically savvy person could and should wonder if the person who wrote them may be an open incel or MGTOW who is also subscribed to Stefan Molyneux.

I mean, I would love to see the Moonguard back in night elf society and being their primary representant for mages, but I don't see it as likely. Which is a shame, because I think the Moonguard fits Night Elf Civilization better than the Shen'dralar and should take them over. The Moonguard were battlemages who don't stem from the Highborne aristocracy. They are basically the rags to riches mages of the old empire, which just fits a civilization that is highly martial and abandoned aristocracy than an aristocratic secret order does. When it comes to the Highborne, I would actually love more and more protagonists among them abandon the Highborne title, showing that they integrated into the modern more egalitarian Night Elf society in which being proud of something like a noble title should be a mark of shame.

That's true to a point. Because I don't really see it as a problem. Druids were alweays neutral types, I'm not sure how many people picked it up in WC3, but they joined because all of nature was in danger - in the night elf lore, we are told they typically do not involve themselves with the affairs of the Night elves, but do their own work. Most players don't realise this though. They think the druids are the Night elves, and it's one cohesive society that's always worked together - this is incorrect
It isn't, the priesthood has basically led the Night elves, the druids have been about nature and the world.

1. Thinking the druids are the night elves
2. Thinking that the Darnassians are all there is to the night elves.

Darnassians are the core to Night Elves and the depiction of Druids as this radically neutral was always a major problem, especially in the case of Malfurion. He is the races co-leader and one of its greatest hero and it is shameful that for the longest time, he was stuck in a role to cooperate with people who just slaughtered his people moments ago. Making him a full on alliance character who seeks vengeance against the Horde who defiles the forests of his people is a step in the right direction. Among all playable classes, Druids are probably the most iconic class to Night Elves and their civilization, but they are always stuck in a position of not belonging and having no loyalty for their people, which is a problem. If we look at Human Paladins, this races iconic class, there was always a feeling that human Paladins still belong to Stormwind, even when their most prominent representation was neutral.

Agreed, I enjoyed seeing the wardensf inally visible in world of Warcraft, just as I enjoyed seeing the arcane civilization of the night elve sin Suramar and enjoyed seeing the personalities of the Highborne in a noble state through the Farondis. It was also nice seeing the demon hunters. While it was nice experiencing more of the druid stuff in Val'Sharah, I found the other Night elf showings more interesting and I was more intrigued to by them.

The end result of a major character I don't think is decided by writers like Knaak or Golden, it is blizzard that decides this, the writers just write the fleshed out story of it.

I think the end result is decided by the developers personal biases. Be it Knaak or Kosak, someone of them didn't seemed to be fond of Maiev and Fandral, who were always considered two of the more interesting Night Elf Characters, and gave both of them the Villain card, though thankfully didn't went fully through with it. Whoever was in place in Legion, I don't really know it anymore, seemingly changed his mind or had a different opinion to begin with, as Maievs role was both in the novel and the game changed into a more nuanced one. Somebody opposed to Illidan and the Illidari but ultimately willing to accept them as her allies to safe the world. But seriously, I don't think Night Elves shouldn't just pushed back into the urban civilization of the past but more into the more warrior-like and powerful vigil-civilization. This is where they gained their popularity, the Night Elves from WC3 during their long vigil was that made people fall in love with them as a race, not histories of their magic past which up until Legion was always depicted as purely corrupted (and still is, if we look at the Nightborn immediately kneeling to the next tyrant). What made the Night Elves interesting was, that they were a savage warrior-culture, though a more articulated and developed one as the tribal Orcs, Tauren or Trolls. They are savaged, yet civilized. Living in the forest, yet having a strictly ordered culture. Which is why I actually loved the Warden always the most, because they perfectly represent the contrasts of Night Elves. They look noble and civilized, wearing full plate armor, yet also threatening and dangerous. They are servants of the law and uphold the Night Elves legal justice system, yet execute it as ruthless predators, huntresses who will hunt their prey until the ends of the world and then lock it down for eternity into their vaults.

100% agreed here. They offer an endge tot he Night elves not in the druids or the priests. The sentinels come closer, but it's a different angle, with fel wielding etc. It, like the highbornce have much room for nuance and complexity too. Demon Hunters greatly love their people and their world, it's why they were driven to such extreme to bring downt he Legion, they're flesh is scarreed and corrupted with stinky demonic power with their iron resolve to break any demonic hold.

Yet their very corruption is frightening and harmful - no night elf would or elf for that matter would want that burden, yet it is quite admirable too - can you see young night elf males enamoured by illidan's heroism and the Illidari, and wanting to follow? Yet wider night elf society not willing to fully incorporate them - but would honour their sacrifice and apologise for their mistreatment... it certainly presents opportunities I would love them to explore.

I feel like Demon Hunters and Warden just fit Night Elf Society after the genocide the most. They are the dark and vengeful parts of the society and I could actually see many Priestesses joining the Warden, just as Maiev once abandoned Priesthood. Especially since when we look at the Avatar of Vengeance, it looks like Warden were always more focussed on the Nightwarrior aspect of Elune when it comes to their magic. And like I said, I still wish for a Wardenstyle heritage armor, as with that one it would be easily possible to play an warden through subtlety rogues, who seem rather similar in their toolset.

Now you're getting to the interesting stuff. This is the the problem here.

But at the heart of it is "blizz has no interest in making the Night elves shine" -- this is their biggest and only real achilles heal. It is such an about turn from their introduction in Wc3, the TFT and the WotA novels (even though the decline started there) - in wow, I have always maintained it was because they were in the alliance and they were pushing horde races. Notice how no alliance race really ever shone, notice how powerful and shining the horde races were. People think that having to kill GArrosh the warchief is evidence ot he contrarty, but those people don't understand storytelling. The horde was the villain, but the horde was also the hero, it as horde centric totally.

This drive started in the planning and development for TBc, to get players to play the horde more, however despite the horde now being the majority faction, and greatly outnumbering the alliance in end game content it seems that alliance development and shining is mainly focused on humans. 8.1 seemed to mark a turn around, but then they said that was it, Tyrande got her revenge, and the Night elves compensation was Darkshore.

Which just goes tot show their mindset regarding developing the race.

Anyway, I don't think their current approach of following set heroes and only going to races when a n expansion theme needs it or requires it as focus is the best approach, who wants to wait another 6 years to get more Night elf focus? They need to come up with a means of giving the races continuous development throughout an expansion and each expansion.. like the Race campaigns that keep coming up on the forums.

I think there is just no base inside WoWs higher narrative echelon that is interested in Night Elves at all, outside of their imperial past. I mean, in the end they even cut Tyrande and Malfurion from the whole Azshara plotline and gave it to Shandris, who is just not that interesting and popular with her whole human potential sucking off Anduin shtick and Jaina, who had nothing to do with that plotline and already had a great and satisfying plotline which could have easily ended back in Dazar'alor, keeping her as one of the more alliance-centric alliance heroes...which the Alliance bitterly lacks, as even our faction leader comes off as more of a neutral character. But I think it comes down to Blizz simply being tone-deaf when it comes to what the Alliance really wants. Just look at how they gave heritage armors to all the most unpopular alliance races while the Blood Elves got theirs first on Horde. Also look at their allied races, which are for the most part rather unpopular and lackluster choices. Even Void Elves are basically the best we got and something nobody asked for. They are radically focussed on Anduin when it comes to the Alliance Narrative, despite him being a less than popular character who predominantly garners hate from the community. The Night Elves are the second most popular race on alliance, yet they only serve as a narrative device for the Horde plotline, to the point where some gross possibly mgtow neckbeards wishfulfillment toxic male power fantasy self-insert was originally supposed to just fully humiliate their leader after she was empowered with the wrath of a goddess.

I really think the whole narrative team is rotten to the core. You can feel how most of the lead narrative developers are just manchilds and even the one female novelist on the team thinks feminism is to push a man front in center and show off his non-toxic masculinity by belittling women who survived a genocide, which is like J.K. Rowlings level of mentally damaged.

[ravenmoon]

. What should have happened was a confrontation between the elves and other magic users wherein the Nelves insist on very strict discipline for arcane users, leading to something like a questline where the issue is brought up, examined, and resolved in a believable manner.

I disagree with you here, that should not have happened...cos it's not really what the NElves were about or the Long vigil issue with the arcane practising. The NElves banned arcane magic practice to prevent the legion's return, once the Legion returns, there is no point. [Not a single Night elf, preist or Malfurion had an issue with the vast majority of the NElves using the arcane to fight the Legion in the 1st invasion, and not one took issue again when humans, high elves and others in WC3, the 2nd invasion, used magic to fight the legion, Tyrande even lets Illidan out to use fel to stop the Legion - the his jailors did not agree with their chief and commander)

Why would the devs write them as being so strict on arcane magic after when that's not what their story really is? Did you see the deves make them join Malygos in suppressing all arcane magic on Azeroth? No !

Its player perception and interpretation of the arcane relation that's wrong, unless you want to think is the devs? Surely you must have been puzzled why the Night elves didn't react to the human mages and others.. did the devs forget? or did we miss the point? Well I was arguing like you in this respect 10-12 years ago, and I was challenged by people like Yig, and went back and relooked at the night elves, and found out they were not the magic hating, only nature exclusive race my first impressions and quick summarising of there race was, in fact a lot of detail showed the opposite. The Long Vigil era is not the whole definition of the Night elves, it only brought out fully their nature side. That nature side is only part of them, just like the pre-sundering era brought out their arcane side fully into the narrative. They are an advanced race that have reached the pinnacle of both arcane and nature magic wielding, and Night elves today have members and groups that are at the top of those 2 fields.

The trouble is people who don't want to accept this duality of Night elves (and I'm not saying you are one such, it's generally some people I have encountered on the forums) - the OP even quoted a dev interview showing the intention behind the night elves, highlighted many places in lore that show the night elves in great arcane mastery and nature mastery, even 10k years later for those who claim it's all in the past, you see Night elves like the Shen'dralar, Moonguard, Faorndis and Nightborne with great arcane magical skills or stated to have (in the case of the Shen'dralar who we haven't actually see in action - Azshara zone Nelf mages were not Shen'dralar but the new mages a few weeks into their training - some returned highborne, some completely new).

It's all there, you see Night elves both good at arcane and nature magic, the Darnassian society granted is not the arcane society of the pre-sundering era, that would exist amongst the Nightborne or the Shen'dralar if they were still in Eldre'thalas or by themselves. But the extent of arcane and nature changes based on circumstance, the Night elf race istelf is highly arcane and nature dually.

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@

Arikara

- the only thing about the arcane I am certain the Night elves hate is the abuse of it. Reckless abuse of it - which is what the palace Highborne did and was the thing they hated most about the previous era. This is actually an indication of a both a love and fear (reverence) for it. Which helps me understand why the Sentinesl revere the Moonwells, arcane waters , and why despite hating the fact the well was restored, they used it and guarded it with reverence, fear and care as holy duty . THis is the race that believed their Goddess slept within it, the power they wield from it is bound to be regarded sacred by their priesthood.. and explains why they would not have been happy with the abuse during the legion invasion.

The fact that it is misuse of magic that called the legion, makes it even more clear. Night elves hate misue of magic, reckless misue - this is the irritation, not actual arcane use, not the good productive, one.

Druids understand the need for balance very well, having worked with nature for 10k years, and not being fools, they'd be aware of the various different magics in teh world and d the balance of all things. They would not be supporting the absence of arcane magic. Never, and do not confuse this was banning the practice of arcane magic, which they fully supported to prevent the Legion's return, you can support the existence of a force and power you know is absolutely necessary while still preventing its use. Still the balance druid is founded on the balance between arcane and nature, between the day and night, betwen the sun and the moon/stars.

I think the end result is decided by the developers personal biases..

*cough Sylvanas *cough

QFT

[Arikara]

I disagree with you here, that should not have happened...cos it's not really what the NElves were about or the Long vigil issue with the arcane practising. The NElves banned arcane magic practice to prevent the legion's return, once the Legion returns, there is no point.

This is a thing that should have happened back in Cataclysm, though. Or during the Nexus War. Or both. Both would be good. It's already too little, too late, though.

Why would the devs write them as being so strict on arcane magic after when that's not what their story really is? Did you see the deves make them join Malygos in suppressing all arcane magic on Azeroth? No !

"The devs are bad writers, therefore the devs should continue to be bad writers!"

Which part of "Only WC3 Nelves are good" didn't I make clear? The WoW devs have never known what the hell to do with the Nelves. They have forgotten their culture. Continuing to forget about their culture doesn't make it any less of a failed opportunity to fix the mistakes they've been making for years.

Nelves absolutely are strict about arcane magic. Not because they hate it—they know by their history that it's just a tool, and can be used for good or bad—but pretending like the Nelves don't have massive anti-arcane sentiment just because the devs havn't shown it (because it doesn't tell the sort of shallow stories that drives expansion sales) doesn't make it not be the case. They spent thousands of years exiling arcane users and subfactions of arcane users—the only reason it hasn't been brought up in-game is because it is convenient for the writers to ignore because they need to force the Nelves and the rest of the Alliance to be friends. Just like the differences between the Forsaken and the rest of the Horde have gone ignored for whole expansions at a time. Except that difference is so much easier to leverage than the vague political tension that would result from the Nelves raising concerns over misuse of arcane magic.

Its player perception and interpretation of the arcane relation that's wrong, unless you want to think is the devs? Surely you must have been puzzled why the Night elves didn't react to the human mages and others.. did the devs forget?

See above. They ignored it because doing so was convenient, and then the old writers were slowly replaced by new writers until we're left with a crew that is barely even aware that Warcraft 1, 2, and 3 ever happened. They're just there to write nonsense that sells expansions.

or did we miss the point? Well I was arguing like you in this respect 10-12 years ago, and I was challenged by people like Yig, and went back and relooked at the night elves, and found out they were not the magic hating, only nature exclusive race my first impressions and quick summarising of there race was, in fact a lot of detail showed the opposite. The Long Vigil era is not the whole definition of the Night elves, it only brought out fully their nature side. That nature side is only part of them, just like the pre-sundering era brought out their arcane side fully into the narrative. They are an advanced race that have reached the pinnacle of both arcane and nature magic wielding, and Night elves today have members and groups that are at the top of those 2 fields.

The trouble is people who don't want to accept this duality of Night elves (and I'm not saying you are one such, it's generally some people I have encountered on the forums) - the OP even quoted a dev interview showing the intention behind the night elves, highlighted many places in lore that show the night elves in great arcane mastery and nature mastery,

This is meaningless drivel with no real basis. You're just justifying your headcanon.

even 10k years later for those who claim it's all in the past, you see Night elves like the Shen'dralar, Moonguard, Faorndis and Nightborne with great arcane magical skills or stated to have (in the case of the Shen'dralar who we haven't actually see in action - Azshara zone Nelf mages were not Shen'dralar but the new mages a few weeks into their training - some returned highborne, some completely new).

The Shen'dralar is a splinter group that broke from the rest of the Nelf society. The Moonguard, Farondis, and Nightborne ARE in the past, and have nothing to do with modern Nelves. Other, various hostile Nelves wandering various zones (many of them as banshee highborne haunting old ruins) are remnants of the past empire and have nothing to do with modern Nelves, who specifically and intentionally broke with those traditions.

You mention that others believe that it's all in the past, then give examples purely of things that are in the past. Do you have any further evidence to support your claims?

It's all there, you see Night elves both good at arcane and nature magic, the Darnassian society granted is not the arcane society of the pre-sundering era, that would exist amongst the Nightborne or the Shen'dralar if they were still in Eldre'thalas or by themselves. But the extent of arcane and nature changes based on circumstance, the Night elf race istelf is highly arcane and nature dually.

Name a single Nelf who is a prominent arcane-user that is accepted as part of Tyrande & Malfurion's Nelf faction, is not highborne (who are by definition not part of that faction), and who existed prior to Cataclysm.

Maiev is the only such character that qualifies as being a (small-time) arcane user, but she is not part of that faction.

the only thing about the arcane I am certain the Night elves hate is the abuse of it. Reckless abuse of it - which is what the palace Highborne did and was the thing they hated most about the previous era. This is actually an indication of a both a love and fear (reverence) for it. Which helps me understand why the Sentinesl revere the Moonwells, arcane waters , and why despite hating the fact the well was restored, they used it and guarded it with reverence, fear and care as holy duty . THis is the race that believed their Goddess slept within it, the power they wield from it is bound to be regarded sacred by their priesthood.. and explains why they would not have been happy with the abuse during the legion invasion.

This is the only good point you've made—yeah, the moonwells are (partially) arcane, and they revere them. They have not purged themselves completely of all arcane use—after all, Nordrassil is fed by arcane powers, and they in turn are blessed by it. However, the distinction lies in personal usage of it and in usage of it and in responsible communal use, as a cultural thing that purifies the lands around and allows the Nelves to partake in a small, safe way, rather than as a means to personal power. That said, it's not like they loathe the very idea of arcane being used—Maiev, as I mention, would perhaps be frowned upon for dabbling, but not forbidden or cast out. Conversely, the random demon hunters (other than Illidan) are individuals who have gone in too deep, and were exiled for doing so—but not hunted, merely shunned.

The fact that it is misuse of magic that called the legion, makes it even more clear. Night elves hate misue of magic, reckless misue - this is the irritation, not actual arcane use, not the good productive, one.

Druids understand the need for balance very well, having worked with nature for 10k years, and not being fools, they'd be aware of the various different magics in teh world and d the balance of all things. They would not be supporting the absence of arcane magic. Never, and do not confuse this was banning the practice of arcane magic, which they fully supported to prevent the Legion's return, you can support the existence of a force and power you know is absolutely necessary while still preventing its use. Still the balance druid is founded on the balance between arcane and nature, between the day and night, betwen the sun and the moon/stars.

This is more headcanon. Yes, they disapprove of misuse, but they have not overtly banned arcane magic forever and ever. What you fail to grasp is that during the vigil, they had a culture that heavily discouraged use of the arcane, without strictly forbidding it. But that is a far cry from trying to "balance" it or having individuals that are "both good at arcane and nature magic". They don't. They didn't do those things. Those who wanted to study the arcane could do so, but came at the cost of leaving the wider Nelf faction. The High Elves did so. The Shendralar did so. The Nightborne didn't have a choice. Several Demon Hunters did so. Others studied it only to a minor degree—but never with any public approval of doing so.

What then happens is the Legion invasion during the third war, during which they are swiftly routed and soon forced to fight alongside Thrall and Jaina. They don't hate Jaina's guts (or any mages with her) for daring to use the arcane during this time, but they certainly didn't look upon it kindly, either.

What should have happened is that, after Archimonde's defeat, during whatever unspoken events in which they negotiated with the Alliance for membership of the Alliance (which is kind of silly all things considered, as Jaina had no contact with any Stormwind officials or otherwise whatsoever, but whatever, it still happened offscreen at some point), they should have requested tighter management of arcane usage. What apparently happened is that they took the same laid-back attitude they've previously taken with splinter groups wishing to study the arcane, and just left them to their own devices—evidently content that as long as arcane-users didn't come near Nordrassil, it didn't matter that much. As I mentioned, this happened for the explicit purpose of easing the Nelves and Alliance into being allied, because from a writing stand-point there was no reason to bring up such an esoteric cultural conflict. However, the trade-off of not doing that has been a gradual erosion of Nelf culture and values, as they have gradually been reduced to just being generic elves who are good at shooting things with arrows and also various types of magic, whether druidic or not. And that is a damn shame.

[ravenmoon]

This is a thing that should have happened back in Cataclysm, though. Or during the Nexus War. Or both. Both would be good. It's already too little, too late, though.

yeh, but then blizz suck at updating things.. the only reason we got race lore progression in cata was because they redid the world and had to progress the stories a bit.

I suspect the cataclysm plotlines for the races were b asically what was going to be level 35-50 racial stoylines if they chose to continue those. Either way.. blizzard doesn't update the rest of the world when huge changes happen you know would affect dramatically different groups. You race only gets updated when it becomes primary focus again or if they re-do the starting area or a new set of racial storylines.

"The devs are bad writers, therefore the devs should continue to be bad writers!"

Which part of "Only WC3 Nelves are good" didn't I make clear? The WoW devs have never known what the hell to do with the Nelves. They have forgotten their culture. Continuing to forget about their culture doesn't make it any less of a failed opportunity to fix the mistakes they've been making for years.

That's subjective though, it's not even clear. What parts are bad? which aspect of the writing is terrible? What do you think is bad and why do you think its bad? It's one to sit in your computer chair and criticise, but then to actually give a constructive criticism? Most of the "devs are bad writers accusations" I suspect are from people who don't like the plot they're complaining about - and that's just subjective. Now there are a few exceptions though when some players flesh out what is bad and why.

Night elven Kaldorei group using the arcane again is not bad writing, it's a plot development.

Nelves absolutely are strict about arcane magic. Not because they hate it—they know by their history that it's just a tool, and can be used for good or bad—but pretending like the Nelves don't have massive anti-arcane sentiment just because the devs havn't shown it (because it doesn't tell the sort of shallow stories that drives expansion sales) doesn't make it not be the case.

We can't speak for certainity what we aren't shown or told. in what way are the Nelves strict about the arcane? When? During the long vigil, they banned it's practice (not the actual arcane - you can't ban arcane magical energy - lol) on penalty of death, because using it would bring the Legion back = destruction of the world. To me that is VERY SERIOUS... and it warrants the hevy penalty.


However if the chief and sole reason was to prevent the Legion returning, it makes perfect sense that once the Legion returns, this attitude and the restriction completely changes. WE know it changed well before the ban on the Highborne was lifted, notice they banne dboth the practice of arcane magic on pain of death, and there was aban on the Highborne entering their territories on pain of death. During WC3, once the Legion returns, they effectively stop enforcing a ban on arcane practice. Humans aren't penalised for it, in fact they have no hatred towards humans or any other arcane user. However, one Night elf is actually written to hate this, and it is Maiev Shadowsong, but she is a special case, and they go into some detail about it, why she hates any arcane usage. No other Night elf is in this position after the Long vigil.

Realising this information, you have to view the ban on arcane magic in the light of the information given. It is a logical based course of action for the Long Vigil to prevent a great evil returning, they are VERY strict on enforcing this for that reason.

Are they strict on arcane magic afterwards? Tbh, I don't see any indication of it, the only hing I can pick up is that they also hate abusive use of magic, the great remorse of the invasion period was the reckless use of magic and addiction. Not the sue of magic itself - the hubris. Every time a night elf complains or mentions regrets about that era it's not about the civilization or the race using arcane magic or being good at it, it is being foolish to the extent they got reckless.

They spent thousands of years exiling arcane users and subfactions of arcane users—the only reason it hasn't been brought up in-game is because it is convenient for the writers to ignore because they need to force the Nelves and the rest of the Alliance to be friends. Just like the differences between the Forsaken and the rest of the Horde have gone ignored for whole expansions at a time. Except that difference is so much easier to leverage than the vague political tension that would result from the Nelves raising concerns over misuse of arcane magic.

I don't know the mind of the writers, I'm sure there are things they just don't consider in much detail or gloss over. Would it be a different story if they paid mind to it? Maybe, maybe not, at the end of the day, they choose a direction a thing will go, and provide some detail, now we have to make up the rest, we can write our stories of our characters, of the races we represent, based on the information they give us.

Now you can be an arcane hating Night elf like Maiev, now most of your kin aren't, at leas the NPCs, but you can , you can be very strict or live an d let live, having a caring concern about those who over indulge like the Nightborne and want to helpt hem find balance -rather than force them into it. The help attitude is the one we see adopted by Farodin, , and that benevolent type mindset is typical of the kaldorei, and indicative of the what the race's general attitude towards the situation might be, especially a druid. Now Tyrande is a High Priestess and Sentinel, she definitely doesn't hate the arcane, we know this, but she is DISGUSTED at the addiction in the Nightborne and appalled of the decision to let the demons in, and she sees a 1st invasion repeat scenario - now you could say ther e are also Night elf attitudes like this - you are not arcane hating, even loving, but that level of addiction is humiliating for your people to the rest of the world and also reminiscent of the same kind of behaviour that compromises good elves to accept the nonsense of the demons. Just because power can corrupt doesn't mean you hate it, but it means you hate those who let themselves be seduced to the state they compromise and let the evil of the Legion. I can imagine Tyrande less sympathetic because this has happened before, and the Nightborne should now better, and she would feel it all the more keenly because these are HER people - like you emigrate somewhere, and return to find your people who once proudly resisted the Legion even though they didn't choose to join you to finish the fight, they are now bigger slaves to addiction and opening the doorway to their enemy to enter your world.

See above. They ignored it because doing so was convenient, and then the old writers were slowly replaced by new writers until we're left with a crew that is barely even aware that Warcraft 1, 2, and 3 ever happened. They're just there to write nonsense that sells expansions.

I know what you mean, but we really can't tell for sure, who knows, they have such a large work you can understand they don't have time to flesh everything out, but only give you the end result and let your imagination run scenarios on how it came to that. However the end result is the lore whether we think it wasn't thought out or not, and we have to go based on that. TBh, there is nothing in a sense intrinsically wrong about the restuls, that's just plot, what's bad if is the way it gets there isn't told well or told poorly. At the end of the day, what happens is entirely up to the writer and neither wrong nor right, the quality of the work is judged in how you write the tale that leads to that result.

This is meaningless drivel with no real basis. You're just justifying your headcanon.

Okay, I'm going to stop here. I'm not on these boards to get insulted by you. FYI, my opinion is my headcanon - it's just what a person's point of view is, if you don't respect that and choose to be derisive of it - then I am not going to respond to you further.

You don't have to agree with my headcanon, but it really looks to me, that you are calling what the lore is showing you headcanon, that's your choice ofc, I mean I am all too familiar of people unable to see what's right infront of their eyes, cos of tunnel vision