Night Elves, Magic & the Arcane - Common Misconceptions & Things You Didn't Consider

[DemonHunter18]

Elune, most of the spells that come from Elune are arcane... why is that?

Do you think Elune is actually casting those spells through the night elves? or the Night elves casting those spells themselves in the name of the Goddess?

But anything not to believe that Elune, the arcane, nature are all intertwined and connected in the Night elf race - but let's just pretend (for no justifiable reason) that the arcane has nothing to do with the Night elves. - because it hurts our forest elf image, and we want only blood elves and horde elves to be able to wield arcane magic.


This is what I'm seeing - people thinking the arcane has nothing to do with the Night elves because the long vigil group banned arcane practice in during that era - rather than take it at face value, only the practice of arcane for spellwork was banned - the arcane wasn't banned, the magical source and energy continues to play a large role. While their actual motive is because they want blood elves to be the special snowflake.. and when Nightborne came along, rather than admit the evidence of Night elf arcana they are fine, "as long as its on the horde"...lmao

Technically the Night elves banned the use of the arcane from the Well of Eternity for spells - if you think about spells like Starfall, starfire must have the stars as their source, not the well of Eternity or any Azeroth based arcane source..., and if the Goddess is their source, perhaps that indicates the arcane and Elune are heavily connected or at least the Priesthood of Elune and Kaldorei druids have arcane influences that go beyond magecraft. What does this tell you of the race? It's Goddess? or you going to just ignore everything that points to the arcane in Night elf lore?

Bottom line it is the use of the arcane power source from the Well of Eternity for SPELLS that is banned.. They continue to use the arcane via the Moonwells and other things during that period, and it's only 1 group of them that does this.. not the entire race

lets just say they are hypocrites

if they banished the Highborne because they wanted to still keep using arcane magic but didn't ban other priestess who still use Arcane (be it from Elune) then they are hypocrites.

[Mace]

Have you ever played Azshara? The Night Elf mages are portrayed as living jokes.

Don't forget however those are mages only a few weeks into training. The Lorekeepers are returned Highborne who've been out of practice for 10k years, the novices are new night elves that have been hanpicked for the caste by the shen'drlaar because of their talent.

People forget that the Highborne are Night elves, and are simply a caste the monarch formed from some (not even all) of the most talented Night elves with the arcane, yet they some how think that the talent and capability for the aracne somehow vanishes in the Night elves - the only Elven group that doesn't genetically change by other magical forces..

If Night elves could be talented with the arcane 12,000 years ago, the same race would still produce people talented with the arcane. Just like the pre-sundering empire that had all night elves using the arcane did not somehow make Night leves lose their talent for nature either, as we see the prolific nature casters amongst the long Vigil group arise...

The talent for magic, both arcane and nature has been there, and evidently other forms of magic, since the Illidari are the most elite fel magic users amongst the races. We also see Night elves pretty good at handling large volumes of void via the Night warrior ritual.


I can't force people to change their perception of night elves as some feral, non-magical elf group, but the evidence in Warcraft lore heavily shows the race as quite magical, i'm sure you'd agree.

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lets just say they are hypocrites

if they banished the Highborne because they wanted to still keep using arcane magic but didn't ban other priestess who still use Arcane (be it from Elune) then they are hypocrites.

Now we can have a conversation. I think this is the view of the Thalassian elves, especially the blood elves. As enemies of the night elves via the faction divide and as indicated by earlier hostilities, this would be the view.

you banned, magic, then exiled us and now you're using it again - HYPOCRITES.


From the Night elf point of view, i.e. the alliance side, and possibly high elvs and ovid elves would be more accepting of this view point now they find themselves mixing with Night elves, especially highborne, including returned Darnassian Highborne who stood by the ban - their standpoint is simple - the practice of the arcane was banned to prevent the Legion's return and so save Azeroth. But once the legion is able to return anyway, such a stance becomes irrelevant no use banning humans and draenei, there is no point for the ban even amongst themselves.

This is revisited when the ban on the Highborne is lifted too, it becomes pointless, - I think people miss this because they just don't register why the arcane was banned.

[Sagenod]

Okay, I'm stopping it, you don't even seem to understand what people discuss in this thread.

Forgive me, but I am ignorant as to what Night Elven mages exactly you're referring to in the Azshara zone. All I was able to find is the Highborne city of Eldarath and Mennar Academy. The former had the Sundering treatment like the rest of the Kaldorei Empire and the latter sacrificed themselves to slow down the Legion. Are you referring to them or Night Elf mages in the modern time? I don't know what storyline or area in the game I should be referring to.

[Shiza]

lets just say they are hypocrites

if they banished the Highborne because they wanted to still keep using arcane magic but didn't ban other priestess who still use Arcane (be it from Elune) then they are hypocrites.

I'd say they were quite right about the Highbornes they kicked out, considering that they recklessly teached human mages without educating them about the dangers of the legion or giving them runestones to shield themselves and that the last of Dath'Remars line summoned Kil'jaeden to Azeroth. Not to forget how they torture a Naaru, suck living beings out of their mana and use fel magic and afterwards get rewarded with an improved Sunwell from an Alliance leader. Blood Elves are basically the kids who keep doing shit and getting rewarded for it.

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Forgive me, but I am ignorant as to what Night Elven mages exactly you're referring to in the Azshara zone. All I was able to find is the Highborne city of Eldarath and Mennar Academy. The former had the Sundering treatment like the rest of the Kaldorei Empire and the latter sacrificed themselves to slow down the Legion. Are you referring to them or Night Elf mages in the modern time? I don't know what storyline or area in the game I should be referring to.

It is literally in the Azshara zone, when Night Elf Mages show up and summon arcane constructs and one Blood Elf makes a living joke out of them. Like, just play the zone, it is recommended to begin with for 20-60 and due to level scaling, you can finish the whole zone without outleveling it.

[DemonHunter18]

I'd say they were quite right about the Highbornes they kicked out, considering that they recklessly teached human mages without educating them about the dangers of the legion or giving them runestones to shield themselves and that the last of Dath'Remars line summoned Kil'jaeden to Azeroth. Not to forget how they torture a Naaru, suck living beings out of their mana and use fel magic and afterwards get rewarded with an improved Sunwell from an Alliance leader. Blood Elves are basically the kids who keep doing shit and getting rewarded for it.

that's true but all those things happened thousands of years later.

maybe they wouldn't do that if they were still part of Kaldorei.

just put them on a close watch.

It is literally in the Azshara zone, when Night Elf Mages show up and summon arcane constructs and one Blood Elf makes a living joke out of them. Like, just play the zone, it is recommended to begin with for 20-60 and due to level scaling, you can finish the whole zone without outleveling it.

WoW that's hilarious xd

[Sagenod]

I'd say they were quite right about the Highbornes they kicked out, considering that they recklessly teached human mages without educating them about the dangers of the legion or giving them runestones to shield themselves and that the last of Dath'Remars line summoned Kil'jaeden to Azeroth. Not to forget how they torture a Naaru, suck living beings out of their mana and use fel magic and afterwards get rewarded with an improved Sunwell from an Alliance leader. Blood Elves are basically the kids who keep doing shit and getting rewarded for it.

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It is literally in the Azshara zone, when Night Elf Mages show up and summon arcane constructs and one Blood Elf makes a living joke out of them. Like, just play the zone, it is recommended to begin with for 20-60 and due to level scaling, you can finish the whole zone without outleveling it.

So you're using a single quest involving a more powerful Blood Elf mage making quick work of a group of weaker, Night Elf mages as the basis for this argument? Now I'm wondering if you were being hyperbolic or even sarcastic about the weak and pathetic sentiment to begin with? The part does not define the whole

[Shiza]

So you're using a single quest involving a more powerful Blood Elf mage making quick work of a group of weaker, Night Elf mages as the basis for this argument? Now I'm wondering if you were being hyperbolic or even sarcastic about the weak and pathetic sentiment to begin with? The part does not define the whole

Just play the quest. The entire quest paints the magic of night elves as pathetic and outdated. He just mocks them and doesn't takes them seriously in the slightest. Which is basically the picture we got of playable Night Elf Mages in the game.

[Sagenod]

Just play the quest. The entire quest paints the magic of night elves as pathetic and outdated. He just mocks them and doesn't takes them seriously in the slightest. Which is basically the picture we got of playable Night Elf Mages in the game.

A single example of weak Night Elf Mages in game, but why should that paint the picture for you when there are examples of the opposite? Like I said, the part doesn't define the whole. So maybe I'm misunderstanding the point you have been trying to make, but it seems to me like you're saying the Night Elves view the Arcane as weak and pathetic because the magic practiced by a single group of Night Elven Mages is weak compared to that which is practiced by a Blood Elven Mage. But there are certainly examples that prove that is not exactly the case. I will definitely agree that those Night Elf Mages were weak and pathetic (as compared to a Blood Elf Mage with superior skills in the Arcane) but that doesn't mean that the Night Elves as a whole have that opinion of the Arcane and especially that the playable version of the Night Elf Mage should be cast in that light. After all, the playable Night Elf Mage is learning the modern, every-man application of Arcane magic, not whatever shitty, antiquated tradition that was being practiced by that group of Night Elf Mages in Azshara.

[Super Dickmann]

@Mace

The focus was on the playable night elves, not on later additions that didn't even exist within WC3 and informed no part of their racial fantasy. The Night Elves as a matriarchal society of druids, warriors and hunters. What happens in the books is to build up to this society, and informs the characterization of the parties later involved in it. It's a companion piece, not the main event. The Sentinels, Druids and Wardens are core to the present day night elves. Arcane is an afterthought, because that niche is already filled elsewhere and in greater detai.

Redundant? by what measure? what indication?
Because the night elf subrace created to depict night elf civilization is around?

Yes, because the blood elves are that element of the Kaldorei Empire that didn't reject arcane use and were exiled for it, with the alternative being death. They fill in the aspect of arcane elves to much greater detail and the Nightborne are that taken to the Nth degree, what with actually still being that Highborne society. By comparison, the Highborne in the night elves serve no purpose - they water down the night elves by breaking the rigidity of their attitudes towards magic and making them more tolerant and thus more bland, breaking taboos that were inherent to their characterization. They fulfill no niche that the blood elves don't already fulfill and indeed if expanded upon would nullify the purpose of races that exist solely because of that founding schism and are defined by it. Any screen time given to them is screentime not spent on the core of the Night Elves, which is already gutted given how watered down the gender divisions, warrior society, savagery and hostility towards outsiders was and how it's defanged the Sentinels and Druids. It will instead cater to something that has no unique storylines to serve because by accepting the Eldre'thalas elves you've removed the entire grounding of the schism to no real benefit except an extra character class.

Does having lesser screen time, less connection to the original WC3 storyline or the fantasy set forth in the story, along with most of these groups being either dead, unplayable or humongous contrivances like the Eldre'thalas Highborne who somehow sucked on a demon for thousands of years and didn't get fel corrupted and despite their mass sacrifice of their people were accepted into Night Elf society for a crisis of much lesser proportion to that in WC3's Legion war make them less valid? Yes. It makes them tangential. They do not fit the core experience.

But, as with all of these endless identical topics I'm largely wasting my time, because the sum of the problem is listed here:

I'm not asking for a greater Highborne involvement or greater role for the arcane society in this topic although I would like that because it's a refreshing change from forest and druids all the time - it gets boring, I was so bored of the Night elves by WotLK, and then cata hit and they became a lot more interesting becusae I saw Highborne mages and Demon Hunters. Why do you think EVERY race in Warcraft has more than 1 MAJOR thing to them? What makes you think Night elves should only have 1 i.e. the forest nature? Because Blood elves have arcane? (they're a different race), because Nightborne now? (Nightborne are new and are a Night elf sub-race showing parts of them not replacing?) Every group has several things .. why do you expect Night elves to become Forest only elves - what a waste of all that lore and fandom.

You are bored of the actual night elven identity and wish it to be something else, so you glomp onto even the slightest representation in-game of such. You consider the Sentinels' portrayal in non-8.1 or other militant content, even when it's just as cameos, to be suitable or indeed overexposed because you impose an equivalent weight to the arcane in the playable night elf identity as there is in Druids, Sentinels, Wardens, Priesthood of Elune etc. which there most definitely it isn't. This despite the latter already forming a coherent and varied list of traits unique to the Night elves, whereas the arcane elf society hearkening back to the Kaldorei Empire has races committed to these topics who's identities would lose out, and indeed do lose out from repetition and thematic overlap. The existence of the Highborne being accepted into night elf society weakens the existing and relevant night elf traits by making them less exclusionary, less tied to the schism that defined their people, and further waters down their initial agency and it weakens the races that spawned from that schism and how fundamental it was by making it irrelevant and these cultural breaches easily overcome. In the same way that the Horde having not one but two Highborne successor groups robs both of definition. In a game where there's limited screen time, broad archetypes and tribal identities, this is zero sum.

tl;dr @Saltysquidoon and @Arikara are right, WC3 night elves are the night elf identity and its facets are what made them popular and should be explored. All watering down of it has done nothing but make the race and its adjacent races worse and made them shallower while introducing unnecessary story contrivances.

[Mace]

Forgive me, but I am ignorant as to what Night Elven mages exactly you're referring to in the Azshara zone. All I was able to find is the Highborne city of Eldarath and Mennar Academy. The former had the Sundering treatment like the rest of the Kaldorei Empire and the latter sacrificed themselves to slow down the Legion. Are you referring to them or Night Elf mages in the modern time? I don't know what storyline or area in the game I should be referring to.

If you level a horde character and do Azshara zone, you are take down the Lorekeeper NElf mages, new Night elf mages who've been practising the arcane for a few weeks as part of the Night elf Darnassian faction.

Azshara zone quest line takes place shortly after the cataclysm happens and the Night elves have started training mages again. Some of these mages were arcnae users, Highborne and Moonguard 10,000 years ago, but upheld the ban on arcane use during the Long vigil unlike the Highborne that got exiled. Many turned to druidism which would explain why they didn't join Darth'remar and likely the lack of druidism amongst the High elves. They would have stayed on Malfurion's and Cenarius side.

once the ban lifts, the Shen'dralar return as the defact Highborne caste and its leaders, many of these former Highborne return, but they are 10,000 years out of practice. New novices also join, the Shen'dralar (like Azshara did) search for Night elves with talent and raise them to Highborne. Azshara zone has both novices and Lorekeeper Highborne, but at this stage they've only been training a few weeks. Blood elf male is very derisive and dismissive of their attempts to master the arcane (not sure what he expects for folk who've only been at it a few weeks), but he is arrogant, and prideful, and shows how outdated some of their methods are, easily exploiting them.

Most horde fans, and some alliance fans take this to mean that Night elves are horrible at arcane magic, and the Shen'dralar are useless, but most don't pay attention to the detail or want to grasp what is going on when they draw such conclusions. Suffice it to say, a seasoned mage is going to be more adept at magical combat than one who hasn't used or fought with the arcane in over 10,000 years, - I mean he's gonna be really out of practice and its going to take a while to catch up, even with the Shen'dralar overseeing your training.

The actual Shen'dralar we meet in game are seen in Darnassus, Stonetalon Mountain and Feralas

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@Mace

The focus was on the playable night elves, not on later additions that didn't even exist within WC3 and informed no part of their racial fantasy.

that's no excuse, I wasn't referring to Night elves exclusive to the WC3 game - I was talking about ALL the Night elves, all what we have been shown from the manual, to the game, the novels, the MMO game etc.

It's the whole race, I talk about many of the groups and go through a lot of things shown in all of them to give those points I made. If you are only referring to WC3 Night elves of the Long Vigil era, then specifically say so, but if you just say Night elves, I read the Night elf race, I don't read faction. The lore has revealed a lot more about the Night elves since WC3, the WC3 faction is not the only Night elf group, nor is it showing all there is to the Nigh t elves.

[Sagenod]

If you level a horde character and do Azshara zone, you are take down the Lorekeeper NElf mages, new Night elf mages who've been practising the arcane for a few weeks as part of the Night elf Darnassian faction.

Azshara zone quest line takes place shortly after the cataclysm happens and the Night elves have started training mages again. Some of these mages were arcnae users, Highborne and Moonguard 10,000 years ago, but upheld the ban on arcane use during the Long vigil unlike the Highborne that got exiled. Many turned to druidism which would explain why they didn't join Darth'remar and likely the lack of druidism amongst the High elves. They would have stayed on Malfurion's and Cenarius side.

once the ban lifts, the Shen'dralar return as the defact Highborne caste and its leaders, many of these former Highborne return, but they are 10,000 years out of practice. New novices also join, the Shen'dralar (like Azshara did) search for Night elves with talent and raise them to Highborne. Azshara zone has both novices and Lorekeeper Highborne, but at this stage they've only been training a few weeks. Blood elf male is very derisive and dismissive of their attempts to master the arcane (not sure what he expects for folk who've only been at it a few weeks), but he is arrogant, and prideful, and shows how outdated some of their methods are, easily exploiting them.

Most horde fans, and some alliance fans take this to mean that Night elves are horrible at arcane magic, and the Shen'dralar are useless, but most don't pay attention to the detail or want to grasp what is going on when they draw such conclusions. Suffice it to say, a seasoned mage is going to be more adept at magical combat than one who hasn't used or fought with the arcane in over 10,000 years, - I mean he's gonna be really out of practice and its going to take a while to catch up, even with the Shen'dralar overseeing your training.

The actual Shen'dralar we meet in game are seen in Darnassus, Stonetalon Mountain and Feralas

Thank you for that! I see now what the issue is, and my point coincides well with it. That group of Mages should not define all Night Elven Mages, especially not the player character. Why does the player Night Elf Mage have to be from the Shen'dralar? Dalaran exists, and it's been open to everybody for years now, with minor hiccups every now and and then, but nothing ever excluded the Night Elves from joining the Kirin Tor. So the player Night Elf Mage, while maybe not being fully accepted by society, could easily have gained his/her knowledge from outside sources. Unantiquated sources, at that.

Reaching you might say? Well unless someone wants to start a whole new thread regarding allied races, let's not discuss reaching in WoW lore.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Like we get what you want and that's fine, but you can't dismiss the fact that Night Elves shunned the arcane for millennia after the Sundering and only recently they let it back in.

Like no matter how you dice it, arcane/magic just occupies very little "cultural real estate" in modern Kaldorei culture, which for better or worse is either based mostly on druidism, and worship of Elune. Those are their main cultural focuses and it's incredibly apparent.

Pointing out how good Night Elves are at magic or how much of their history is focused on the arcane is irrelevant to modern Night Elf society. Which again, as a whole, in terms of mainstream, is a culture focused on druidism and worship of Elune in present day.

Of course that doesn't meant we can't explore the very real highborne that are now part of the Night Elven culture, and that's great because it adds layers and complexity to them as a people -thing Wolfheart tried to address but lol- but their relationship to the arcane is a small fraction as a culture than what it used to be, and nothing points out they will ever go back to pre-sundering days.

You have to accept their current cultural mainstream, or instead ask for more focus on the Highborne, but all your posting comes across as you wanting for Night Elves to culturally return to focus more on arcane and highborne culture, when they have 10k years distancing themselves from it.

[Mace]

Yes, because the blood elves are that element of the Kaldorei Empire that didn't reject arcane use and were exiled for it, with the alternative being death. They fill in the aspect of arcane elves to much greater detail and the Nightborne are that taken to the Nth degree, what with actually still being that Highborne society. By comparison, the Highborne in the night elves serve no purpose - they water down the night elves by breaking the rigidity of their attitudes towards magic and making them more tolerant and thus more bland, breaking taboos that were inherent to their characterization. They fulfill no niche that the blood elves don't already fulfill and indeed if expanded upon would nullify the purpose of races that exist solely because of that founding schism and are defined by it. Any screen time given to them is screentime not spent on the core of the Night Elves, which is already gutted given how watered down the gender divisions, warrior society, savagery and hostility towards outsiders was and how it's defanged the Sentinels and Druids. It will instead cater to something that has no unique storylines to serve because by accepting the Eldre'thalas elves you've removed the entire grounding of the schism to no real benefit except an extra character class.

Welll thanks for your opinion, but saying they serve no purpose is your opinion, because you think that a sub-race exists showing a better detailed version of it, therefore the original one serves no purpose - is presumptious, and it is an opinion, it certainly is not fact. Only the developers know the full purpose of the various groups, and I would doubt they've even decided.

We can only go on the here and now, and many Night elf players, including all the mage ones, and those who love the Highborne part of the Night elves don't think that the Kaldorei, are redundant wrt to the arcane, don't think that the Darnassian Highborne faction is redundant because Nightborne are around. What will you do if the night elves get to occupy Suramar instead, driving the Nightborne out? or they share? Would you think differently?

Your basis for them being redundant basically boils down to you not noticing much development from them. Do you know what the purpose of the Nightborne was? It certainly wasn't to give the horde a Night elf race - the decision for them going horde came after they were already playable in game and it was heavily debated. The Nightborne are evidence of the Night elven arcane side, but it is not limited to them. It might make you feel there is no point to the Highborne anymore, but it shouldn't, this is not the point of making sub-races, they are not there to make core races redundant, furthermore, the relevance and need of Highborne actually went up once Nightborne crossed the faction line.

Currently, Highmountain and tauren seem interchangeable, you certainly don't think of Highmountain replacing Tauren (why would you think Nightborne replace Highborne/Night elves?). If Highmountain went over to the alliance, would you think the Tauren shaman and druids were now redundant? When last did you see development for Tauren shaman and druids in game? So because all the recent development was in the Highmountain that makes the Tauren redundant? SAme with the Lightforge draenei - see where I am going?


don't take blizzards lack of development as some sort of sign. Did they delete the Night elf mage? Do you not see them still show after Legion (where you saw so many night elven arcane wielders), do you not see them in BFA cinematic, in Elegy/Good War, in Darkshore Warfront, in the Assaults too.. they aren't going anywhere. And why should they? Because you feel the Nightborne make them redundant?

They don't, the Nightborne just showcase the Highborne, now they've done the Nightborne they don't need to necessarily show the Highborne civilization, although to make it easier for some people to understand, they may need to spell it out a little more clearly.

[Arikara]

WC3 night elves are the night elf identity and its facets are what made them popular and should be explored. All watering down of it has done nothing but make the race and its adjacent races worse and made them shallower while introducing unnecessary story contrivances.

You know, I am increasingly convinced that low-level racial leveling zones serve a truly monumentally relevant function; to impart the story and culture of that race onto the player, and tell a story of what the player and their people are like. In vanilla—and mind you, I havn't played Classic and am purely reminiscing on old memories—you would have tauren doing things like carry water from the wells around Mulgore, hunt named beasts, and fight centaurs. Humans would learn about the political nonsense with the Defias and confront them. Orcs would perform trials of strength. And night elves would experience and explore their forests—Ashenvale in particular. Whatever writing the quests had was irrelevant, but the zones themselves and what you did in them was such an important piece of worldbuilding and cultural significance to each race, which has since been lost, as we've increasingly moved towards races being just a pretty skin—more of a fashion statement than anything of cultural or factional significance.

And while this isn't something that can simply be recaptured—especially not in today's meta culture of instant gratification and various progression treadmills—it is something that makes the world be less of a tangible place. Factions don't stand for ideas, places, races, or groups of like-minded people—they're just a bar you fill to get goodies. The way the game has progressed since vanilla first made its debut has focused increasingly on the players, and less on the world, and in many ways I think that it is poorer for it. Vanilla didn't even do it particularly well; it might have been interesting to see how things had worked out if the devs had had different ideas on how to proceed.

If the world had been in the focus, rather than churning out bucketloads of content that we did once or twice and then moved on to forget about forever afterwards, perhaps it would have been possible to do things like declare your own night elf a heretic arcane user, understanding what that meant—unlike these elf fanatics who can't seem to tell the difference between the highbourne and the playable night elves—and go study forbidden knowledge and hang out with the Shendralar or other factions instead of the Sentinels. It would've been a very different sort of game. Not better, necessarily, but interesting.

[Mace]

Like we get what you want and that's fine, but you can't dismiss the fact that Night Elves shunned the arcane for millennia after the Sundering and only recently they let it back in.

This isn't about what I want. I haven't made a wishlist for Night elves.
Not dismissing that the Long Vigil Kaldorei group banned the practice of arcane for millennia either

Notice how:
1. I specify - Long Vigil group i.e. 1 of several Night elven groups,
2. Notice how I said banned the practice of Arcane magic - I didn't say shunned the arcane.

I am being specific to give clarity, context and focus. Not making sweeping generalisations. Nor am I dismissing lore from the manuals, lore from the novels, and lore from the game. I am treating WC3 lore as valid as every other piece of lore here. I'm not the one picking and choosing what I like.

Like no matter how you dice it, arcane/magic just occupies very little "cultural real estate" in modern Kaldorei Darnassianculture

,
Actually, I agree, although I would add in modern Kaldorei DARNASSIAN culture. I say as much too. I put the focus in the proper context. The Night elf you play isn't necessarily even part of the Darnassians, if that's what you choose, even though that is the playable group.

which for better or worse is either based mostly on druidism, and worship of Elune. Those are their main cultural focuses and it's incredibly apparent.

I'm also quick to point out that that widespread use of arcane magic through culture doesn't make the Night elf more talented with arcane magic, any less than the opposite is true. i.e. Darnassian culture not having widespread arcane culture doesn't mean that Darnassian Kaldorei can't be or aren't highly talented with arcane magic.

My point was to show it is part of the race, at the core, not to show that arcane is widespread in Darnassian society. You're mis-understanding me if you think that's what I'm doing. the Night elf is equally as talented in the arcane now as he was in the height of the empire, the main differences is the practice is less common now in the DARNASSIAN group, only present in the Highborne caste rather than all out. But the race's predisposition and capability with the arcane is the same

Pointing out how good Night Elves are at magic or how much of their history is focused on the arcane is irrelevant to modern Night Elf society. Which again, as a whole, in terms of mainstream, is a culture focused on druidism and worship of Elune in present day.

It is quite relevant to what I am actually writing about. AS said above, this is not about trying to prove the Darnassian are an arcane society or that arcane practice is widespread in the Darnassian group

Title says: Night Elves, Magic and the Arcane: Misconceptions & Things you Didn't (meant Might Not) Have Considered because I'm talking about the race, I even have several sections that talk about arcane practice not being widespread in society: I actually say that.

Here: I draw your attention to the 3rd segment of the topic I made, specifically on Misconceptions: I even bolded it. Guess you didn't read it.

Common Incorrect Statements from the Opposition-to-Magical Night Elven players.

1. To the Players Who Say the Arcane and Civilization Is not for Night elves

That's opinion, not fact.
a) To say the night elves shouldn't have an arcane culture b/c they banned arcane for 10k years, is also opinion not fact, and is based on the blood elf view of the matter - it is not fact.
b) To say they have no arcane culture is also wrong - it is wrong in the Darnassian group since the Shen'dralar have joined as it exists amongst those Highborne, it is also wrong amongst other groups like the Moonguard and Farondis.
c) To say the past doesn't matter as some sort of proof that the night elves don't have the arcane because it's the past is also wrong - not only do they have current arcane users, but just because something is in the past doesn't mean it is somehow no longer a part of them - what you mean to say is that the arcane doesn't play a major role in current Darnassian society - that would be correct but to say this is because the night elves have moved on or rejected the arcane would be incorrect, You have no proof, only head canon. In fact the only correct statement is that the Darnassian group don't have much of an arcane culture as a society.

N.B.

• Don't generalise. When you say Night elves, remember you are talking about a race, not just a faction. If you mean a faction, you should say so, and specify which one. For example the faction most player night elves play are the Darnassians, (exception of the demon hunter Night elf - which is not a Darnassian).
• There is a difference between the arcane as a magical power and the practise of the arcane in a society. The main Night elven never banned the arcane, or hated it, they banned the practise of the arcane for magical spells. It is worth noting that 3 other large Night elven groups did not do so.. .so to generalise that the Night elves banned the arcane is very incorrect.
• Note the difference between an activity in a society and the capability of an individual or race. To say the arcane is not a core part of the night elves is incorrect, to say it isn't a core or significant part of the Darnassian society at present is correct. Massive difference.

2. The arcane is not the exclusive purview of blood elves, it is incorrect if you feel it is, it is not (not amongst elves as Nightborne and Night elves show or other races as humans, forsaken, Draenei etc show. Nor are elven magical cities the exclusive right of Blood elves or the horde. Looking at you horde only Blood elf fans, you have erroneously taken it upon yourself to feel that the arcane is your exclusive right, you shouldn't, the birth, greatest development and mastery of it has always been a part of the Night elf race from the start. It is part of the Elf race type set and it is not exclusive to blood elves - as the Nightborne and Kaldorei lore past and present clearly show you. Remember when alliance players felt that having cities, civilizsed races and arcane magic were exclusively their right, well they were wrong when the Blood elves went horde, but in this case, you were shown from the start and told the night elves had this in them.

3. Blizzard doesn't do races that are about one thing only. The night elves were never only about the forest/nature, the blood elves never only about the arcane. This is clear in every single playable group, race and faction. And is not just meant for very important diversity and a more realistic approach, but also to give players a wide assortment of fantasies to play their characters in a role of. It is a roleplaying game and multiple roles are defined for each race.

a) Nature is a major part of the Night elf theme - but it is not the only major theme amongst the Night elves.
b) The arcane has and still plays a major part both in the affairs, history and nature of the Night elf race - note this is not the same as saying "arcane Culture" is predominant or a major part of the Darnassian society

There, it was bolded in the original post, did you read it? I'm fully agreeing with the factual statements you have made, and yet you are completely unaware, responding to the topic thinking I am talking about something else. Look, I have previously valued your contributions before, it's rude and sloppy not to at least read what the person is saying before responding to tell them how wrong they are.

Of course that doesn't meant we can't explore the very real highborne that are now part of the Night Elven culture, and that's great because it adds layers and complexity to them as a people -thing Wolfheart tried to address but lol- but their relationship to the arcane is a small fraction as a culture than what it used to be, and nothing points out they will ever go back to pre-sundering days.

You have to accept their current cultural mainstream, or instead ask for more focus on the Highborne, but all your posting comes across as you wanting for Night Elves to culturally return to focus more on arcane and highborne culture, when they have 10k years distancing themselves from it.

don't jump on the bandwagon of presuming what my post is trying to do without actually paying attention to what it is ACTUALLY saying. You presume too much here about what I may be trying to do, if I want to make a topic on where I wanted Night elves to go, I would do so, but that was not what I was doing here.

You may infer from other topics that I do have a desire for a larger arcane focus, because I very much like that part of the Night elves, and we don't see much of it. Suramar wasn't enough, and with the Nightborne taken to the horde, it makes you want to see more on the Night elf themselves. But that's a desire, and while we can discuss that, that is not what the OP is about.

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You know, I am increasingly convinced that low-level racial leveling zones serve a truly monumentally relevant function; to impart the story and culture of that race onto the player, and tell a story of what the player and their people are like. In vanilla—and mind you, I havn't played Classic and am purely reminiscing on old memories—you would have tauren doing things like carry water from the wells around Mulgore, hunt named beasts, and fight centaurs. Humans would learn about the political nonsense with the Defias and confront them. Orcs would perform trials of strength. And night elves would experience and explore their forests—Ashenvale in particular. Whatever writing the quests had was irrelevant, but the zones themselves and what you did in them was such an important piece of worldbuilding and cultural significance to each race, which has since been lost, as we've increasingly moved towards races being just a pretty skin—more of a fashion statement than anything of cultural or factional significance.

And while this isn't something that can simply be recaptured—especially not in today's meta culture of instant gratification and various progression treadmills—it is something that makes the world be less of a tangible place. Factions don't stand for ideas, places, races, or groups of like-minded people—they're just a bar you fill to get goodies. The way the game has progressed since vanilla first made its debut has focused increasingly on the players, and less on the world, and in many ways I think that it is poorer for it. Vanilla didn't even do it particularly well; it might have been interesting to see how things had worked out if the devs had had different ideas on how to proceed.

If the world had been in the focus, rather than churning out bucketloads of content that we did once or twice and then moved on to forget about forever afterwards, perhaps it would have been possible to do things like declare your own night elf a heretic arcane user, understanding what that meant—unlike these elf fanatics who can't seem to tell the difference between the highbourne and the playable night elves—and go study forbidden knowledge and hang out with the Shendralar or other factions instead of the Sentinels. It would've been a very different sort of game. Not better, necessarily, but interesting.

Arikara they are representations of what the races are..at the point in time they cover. If a major event happens to a specific race, like genocide, cataclysm or the death of a 10k year old enemy, things are going to change. The Night elves you meet in classic have already had 2 such monumental changes that affect how they operate, the rfirst was the great sundering that ended the arcane focused pre-sundering era, the second was th Wc3 that ended the long vigil nature focused era.

WoW starts thenight elves off at a point not long after that, and the quests will reflect that, but it isn't all there is to the race. Are you going to ignore everything the novels tell you about the race? The novels are where the vast majority of Night elf lore is told. Most of the Night elf race isn't shown in game, but in novels.. you going to ignore that because it isn't the starting experience?


Anyway, the starting experience does tell you a lot about the Night elves, not everything, but a lot, as you journey, you find out a lot more. it's just how it is.

what I've done here is to take a look at ALL the information on the Night elves given and dispel certain misconceptions, myths, untruths while at the same time revealing and showing certain things that are not too apparent to people. It is entirely drawn from what we have in game, in the books and official material, but I have noticed some misconceptions around, and had hoped the information here would help set the record straight with some. I am also noticed, some people here actually really don't care about finding out what the truth is, they are only interested in perpetuating what is in hteir own head, so that even when shown this is not the case, they point blank ignoring it.


Like I am asking them to read a novel. If you've got a wrong idea, and someone has done a piece with corrections, aren't you at least interested to see what is been said and find correction if you're wrong? I do. But you know an old saying that says fools despise wisdom and hate correction huh. Funny how in this world we get to decide whether we are wise or fools.

[Arikara]

I am also noticed, some people here actually really don't care about finding out what the truth is, they are only interested in perpetuating what is in hteir own head, so that even when shown this is not the case, they point blank ignoring it.

Like I am asking them to read a novel. If you've got a wrong idea, and someone has done a piece with corrections, aren't you at least interested to see what is been said and find correction if you're wrong? I do. But you know an old saying that says fools despise wisdom and hate correction huh. Funny how in this world we get to decide whether we are wise or fools.

Alas, you are much too long-winded and boring to talk to for me to bother to respond to you in-depth, but let me leave you with this:

Yes, I will elect to ignore Knaak's novels, because they are 1) no longer relevant, as the playable Night Elves have hardly anything in common with those of ten thousand years past, and 2) If you do wish to consider them, you need to understand that all night elf culture presented in them matters to the high elves, blood elves, naga, and nightborne, but NOT to the modern night elves, and 3) because they are bad, and Knaak is a poor writer whose vision does not match what should be. These books expand on what was, not on what is, and that is fine and good, but has no bearing on the present.

As for being wrong and despising wisdom or whatever other adjectives you wish to apply to anyone who dares disagree with your biased wishful agenda, please consider how those same things apply to yourself. You aren't laying down facts, you're spouting headcanon.

If you want to play a magic elf, or highborne or whatever descriptor you want to use, there are already two races that do that. They just happen to be red rather than blue. If you can't stomach that, that's on you, not Blizzard or random forumgoers who call you out on your misconceptions.

[Mace]

Thank you for that! I see now what the issue is, and my point coincides well with it. That group of Mages should not define all Night Elven Mages, especially not the player character. Why does the player Night Elf Mage have to be from the Shen'dralar? Dalaran exists, and it's been open to everybody for years now, with minor hiccups every now and and then, but nothing ever excluded the Night Elves from joining the Kirin Tor. So the player Night Elf Mage, while maybe not being fully accepted by society, could easily have gained his/her knowledge from outside sources. Unantiquated sources, at that.

Reaching you might say? Well unless someone wants to start a whole new thread regarding allied races, let's not discuss reaching in WoW lore.

Exactly, not only that, the zone events are only at that point in time. They are a snap shot of an ongoing story, they were out of practice 10 years ago during the cataclysm, but with teachers like the Shen'dralar who've been at the pinnacle of arcane research at a level only the Nightborne in Suramar can measure up to, I don't think those NPCs, nevermind the player character are still novices. Especially if you factor in, that these are highly talented at the arcane people. Every highborne that Azshara picked was, so if they were returned Highborne they would be, and if the Shen'dralar are selecting those with great arcane talent again, geuss what, those Night elves would be very good at it and receiving great training.

The player night elf would be as good as any blood elf or Nightborne. In fact whatever race a player mage is, they become the star of the story, an incredible archmagi, whether they are Orc, Dwarf or Human, Draenei, or Thalassian, Night elven.


Here is My Rough Assessment of What it Most Likely Is Like
Those Darnassians had antiquated knowledge, but the quests even show they were learning very quickly, think of it if you were training for something at university, you gonna master everything and the latest combat techniques in a few weeks? Ofc not, especially if you've been years out of practice, with new techniques to learn. We are talking combat techniques only, another thing people happily forget. It's not with regards to ALL their arcane knowledge or all the shen'dralar's knowledge, it's technique regarded for warfare.. how would you know a construct is exploitable magically and stop using htem in that capacity if battle hadn't shown you this?

To think it was actual Shen'dralar just shows how poorly some people pay attention to the lore, but are all to quick to criticise blizzard as being sloppy and "bad writing", the Shen'drlar the lore tells you were fanatically studying the arcen for the last 10millenia, in a city that didn't get destroyed by the sundering. So like Suramar, it had a lot of "lost knowledge available" and they didn't sit on it. They are described as the Queen Azshara's most revered arcanists, and fanatically studying arcane throughout the millennia. We meet them in dire maul, nearly 1000 years after the city has been falling to ruins, they're still there, completely focused on knowledge. we learn they've been scrying on the whole world the whole time, loving all forms of knowledge and taking a penchant to obscure pieces - this is the group you're dealing with. The horde drives them out canonically, where they spend a few years in Feralas ridding themselves of their corruption and addiction. When they approach the Night elves they have been free from their corruption and are accepted fully after the events of Wolfheart.

Suffice it to say, this is not a group that will be unfamiliar with the exploits of arcane constructs - bear in mind, modern arcana is still behind Night elven arcana of 10k years ago, with mages desperate for tomes from the Night elf empire. The Shen'dralar and Nightborne joining are a huge boon to magic users for the information they hold. We don't know how much they share with their allies, but we know that the High elves, hadn't recovered or relearnt the majority of the information lost from the empire days, Tael'than also reaffirms that in Azsuna when you meet him. And the high elves started studying arcane magic again 3,000 years after the sundering, ofc Kaldorei 10k years out of practice are going to be in a worse of position - AT FIRST -- difference to the Sunstrider Highborne 7,000 years ago, is that these Darnassians have Shen'dralar who've been going for 10,000 years unbroken in arcane study and practice. THe Nightborne joining the horde would help even out the scales for the horde, whereas the void elves joining the alliance would bring with them all the blood elf advancements since TBC, which we know are considerable but only with respect to combat and power. [the biggest advancements would be fighting with magic - as those living in the sundered world would be much better at.

Thalassians had to fight several major wars, against trolls, then the orcs etc - the Shen'dralar and Nightborne on the hand, actually don't fight until we meet them, so their fighting while wielding poerful magic, wouldn't be as sharp as it can be. When the Nightborne attack Moonguard stronghold, despite vastly outnumbering the Moonguard, the experienced mages take far more Nightborne down per head - ofc Moonguard of Moonguard stronghold have lived in a post-sundering world, not in a bubble, they'd have bee had to fight challenges, demons, naga etc, likely quite a lot too, their spell work remains impr

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Alas, you are much too long-winded and boring to talk to for me to bother to respond to you in-depth.

If it bores you, then don't comment on what I am saying. You can only do so if you're read it. It's pointless otherwise.

If you disagree with a specific point, make sure you highlight it after reading the full context and be clear with what you're replying to.



[

Yes, I will elect to ignore Knaak's novels, because they are 1) no longer relevant, as the playable Night Elves have hardly anything in common with those of ten thousand years past, and 2) If you do wish to consider them, you need to understand that all night elf culture presented in them matters to the high elves, blood elves, and nightborne, but NOT to the modern night elves, and 3) because they are bad, and Knaak is a poor writer whose vision does not match what should be. These books expand on what was, not on what is, and that is fine and good, but has no bearing on the present.

You aren't doing yourself any favours here. Knaak's books are all canon. Playable Night elf can be any Night elf too, you have arcane ones, nature ones, hunter wones, priestly ones, demon hunter ones... you're being foolish if you're just ignoring the other very valid and lore appropriate Night elves, because you want to ignore Knaak or don't like Night elves being arcane..

You no t liking the lore doesn't change it, so if you want to argue on what is loreful you have to factor in the lore. you can't argue that Night elves don't have the arcane or aren't arcane users if the lore shows you this. You must also be careful you're not mis reading what a person is typing, that is why you have to read it - if you assume that i'm saying Night elven society is arcanised, then you're mis-reading, not only that, I am directly pointing out to you in a short paragraph, and you're ignoring it. This just shows you being stubborn and wilfully ignoring what is being said, it is up to you to inform and educate yourself by reading the information.

[Saltysquidoon]

This isn't about what I want. I haven't made a wishlist for Night elves.
Not dismissing that the Long Vigil Kaldorei group banned the practice of arcane for millennia either

Notice how:
1. I specify - Long Vigil group i.e. 1 of several Night elven groups,
2. Notice how I said banned the practice of Arcane magic - I didn't say shunned the arcane.

I am being specific to give clarity, context and focus. Not making sweeping generalisations. Nor am I dismissing lore from the manuals, lore from the novels, and lore from the game. I am treating WC3 lore as valid as every other piece of lore here. I'm not the one picking and choosing what I like.
*Snip*
Actually, I agree, although I would add in modern Kaldorei DARNASSIAN culture. I say as much too. I put the focus in the proper context. The Night elf you play isn't necessarily even part of the Darnassians, if that's what you choose, even though that is the playable group.

This is it this is the crux of the issue.

This artificial "Long vigil"/"Darnassian" vs "Other night elf groups" is not a distinction that meaningfully exists. The night elves are overwhelmingly the elves who live under the authority Tyrande and Malfurion, they represent the politics and the culture the vast vast majority of night elves. Any other group is a fraction of a fraction of the population.
What you're doing is the same as trying to impute the culture of the burning blade clan is somehow strongly relevant to the culture of durotar orcs, or sand trolls are strongly relevant to the culture of the darkpear. Yes, those factions exist within the world, yes the highborn exist (and I'm sure blizzard could write some stories for them if they wanted).

But the Night elf society and culture is overwhelmingly dominated by the politics and culture of Malfurion and Tyrande, any deviation from them are a vanishingly small part of the culture.

[Arikara]

You aren't doing yourself any favours here. Knaak's books are all canon. Playable Night elf can be any Night elf too, you have arcane ones, nature ones, hunter wones, priestly ones, demon hunter ones... you're being foolish if you're just ignoring the other very valid and lore appropriate Night elves, because you want to ignore Knaak or don't like Night elves being arcane..

You no t liking the lore doesn't change it, so if you want to argue on what is loreful you have to factor in the lore. you can't argue that Night elves don't have the arcane or aren't arcane users if the lore shows you this. You must also be careful you're not mis reading what a person is typing, that is why you have to read it - if you assume that i'm saying Night elven society is arcanised, then you're mis-reading, not only that, I am directly pointing out to you in a short paragraph, and you're ignoring it. This just shows you being stubborn and wilfully ignoring what is being said, it is up to you to inform and educate yourself by reading the information.

I am in no way, shape, or form arguing that those things aren't canon. I recognize them to be canon, and condemn them as mistakes made by the devs which have increasingly led to night elves being bland, boring, and without a culture. Every step of the way, WoW has mishandled Nelves—ergo, only Wc3 Nelves are good Nelves.

Prior to Cataclysm, there were no night elf mages. They didn't exist, save for splinter groups that were explicitly not part of the playable faction. It should have stayed that way.

To summarize: I want the devs to reinforce racial culture, not just of night elves, but all races. Unfortunately, this is something that is ridiculously unrealistic, and which would come too little too late. You want the devs to continue making further mistakes and washing away a culture they were already failing to show, in favor of a culture that you dream of, but which is already available to you on the other side of the fence. I vehemently disagree with your wishful fantasies of what this particular race should be like. I don't believe anything further needs to be said on that subject.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

This isn't about what I want. I haven't made a wishlist for Night elves.
Not dismissing that the Long Vigil Kaldorei group banned the practice of arcane for millennia either

Notice how:
1. I specify - Long Vigil group i.e. 1 of several Night elven groups,
2. Notice how I said banned the practice of Arcane magic - I didn't say shunned the arcane.

I am being specific to give clarity, context and focus. Not making sweeping generalisations. Nor am I dismissing lore from the manuals, lore from the novels, and lore from the game. I am treating WC3 lore as valid as every other piece of lore here. I'm not the one picking and choosing what I like.


Actually, I agree, although I would add in modern Kaldorei DARNASSIAN culture. I say as much too. I put the focus in the proper context. The Night elf you play isn't necessarily even part of the Darnassians, if that's what you choose, even though that is the playable group.

Look, the point is that the "Darnassian" are the majority of the modern Night Elves. The only night elven group that still sees arcane as a pillar of their cultural identity, the Highborne, have joined Darnassian culture itself.

Like, It's literally not about "how talented NE's are at magic" the point is what are the cultural views on it from the mainstream kaldorei culture. This is the issue of this thread, you are trying to allegedly "clarify misconceptions" which would only be useful for newcomers, but you do so on an overly verbose way that is bound to alienate anyone that would have use of this information. It's convoluted.

All you are pointing out is irrelevant to the reality of modern Kaldorei culture as a whole, this post is not accesible to newcomers, this is all minutiae lore nerds are already aware off, so I don't even know who the target audience for this is.