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  1. #101
    Immortal sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    they should take a backseat because the game is hordexalliance orcsxhumans after all, see how they remove orcs from importance in the horde how much the horde became shit.
    massive difference here
    horde was presented in wc3 with 3 main races: Taurens, Trolls and Orcs, trolls are orcs bff, taurens are pacifist who happily follow but don't like to lead, both belfs and forsaken are introduced as allies of convenience not real horde races, they can - and did - multiple times backstab or try to flat out leave horde
    on other hand we have alliance that is 'unified' under the worst option for them, why would nelf be happily obedient for alliance? nelf specially were for 10k years leaders of their own faction, way longer than humans ever were, before they even existed, yet they happily joined alliance and 'learn' from them, stuck in support role for ages
    And when they finally started to get slight personality in BFA, they introduced them as villains
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    they should take a backseat because the game is hordexalliance orcsxhumans after all, see how they remove orcs from importance in the horde how much the horde became shit.
    That's because they forgot to remove tauren aswell.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  3. #103
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    massive difference here
    horde was presented in wc3 with 3 main races: Taurens, Trolls and Orcs, trolls are orcs bff, taurens are pacifist who happily follow but don't like to lead, both belfs and forsaken are introduced as allies of convenience not real horde races, they can - and did - multiple times backstab or try to flat out leave horde
    on other hand we have alliance that is 'unified' under the worst option for them, why would nelf be happily obedient for alliance? nelf specially were for 10k years leaders of their own faction, way longer than humans ever were, before they even existed, yet they happily joined alliance and 'learn' from them, stuck in support role for ages
    And when they finally started to get slight personality in BFA, they introduced them as villains
    after the third war they were not in any position to choose what to do either, they lost people, lost immortality, magic, people are delusion to think the night elves are great power to be fearful in those days

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    after the third war they were not in any position to choose what to do either, they lost people, lost immortality, magic, people are delusion to think the night elves are great power to be fearful in those days
    The Night Elves were more powerful than both Thrall and Jaina's forces combined, given that the orcs at the time were a few ships worth of people who had to fight the Warsong and the 'Alliance' was just those refugees that went with Jaina, as compared to a continent-spanning power. The Night Elves never even knew Stormwind existed at that point and given that Stormwind got its ass handed to it by the Horde, the idea that they'd become a vassal power to it is beyond parody.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-05-15 at 09:26 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  5. #105
    The Patient Astranea's Avatar
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    I am uncertain if this can be considered canon by any mean, but I certainly found it striking that of all possible choices, they went for some Arcane magic runes being handled by what seems to be an Elune priestess on the art for the upcoming Small World of Warcraft game...





    Edit: Mind you, we know what at least one night elven priestess and scholar, Vestia Moonspear, decided to study under the Highborne and become a mage, claiming the chance to learn from them was preferable to "strict ignorance" and in turn teaching other night elves what she learned at the Tower of Estulan, only to be alienated from many of her friends who could not understand her decision. (Source: Quotes from wowpedia)

    But I really doubt they picked a specific character here. I would be more keen to guess they simply figured it may be an appreciated and popular flavor of night elf.

    Or is she an ancient night elf from prior the Sundering? To think of it, she does look a bit troll-like in her facial features, does she not...

    Or not. Considering there also is a Worgen on the teaser game cover. ^^

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Astranea View Post
    I am uncertain if this can be considered canon by any mean, but I certainly found it striking that of all possible choices, they went for some Arcane magic runes being handled by what seems to be an Elune priestess on the art for the upcoming Small World of Warcraft game...
    It's Tyrande, you can tell by the outfit. I expect the next bible length post about how this proves Tyrande is a mage and the very top of night elf society is run by mages by OP within the week.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  7. #107
    Immortal sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    after the third war they were not in any position to choose what to do either, they lost people, lost immortality, magic, people are delusion to think the night elves are great power to be fearful in those days
    they had chimeras, faerie dragons, hypogryphs, druids of many forms, literal giants, demi gods among them
    wow for weird reason made ancients rare, chimeras and dragons left them? and hypogryph stuck as fly master pet, nelf in wow were horribly downgraded from wc3
    also they lost all that in wc3, they still kept them in TFT
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It's Tyrande, you can tell by the outfit. I expect the next bible length post about how this proves Tyrande is a mage and the very top of night elf society is run by mages by OP within the week.
    or u know the 'official' lore book chronicles will fit that, after all it is book from pov of creatures who are dead and their soul imprisoned for 25k years with zero access to anything, yet they still wrote entire warcraft timeline, even if they can't know it in first place
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  8. #108
    The Patient Astranea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It's Tyrande, you can tell by the outfit. I expect the next bible length post about how this proves Tyrande is a mage and the very top of night elf society is run by mages by OP within the week.
    LOL, is she. I honestly thought the outfit was just a pimped-up Mooncloth Robe.

    But seriously, at most it brings up the point of some Elune-related spells possibly belonging to the Arcane school of magic?

    I believe in Classic it is possible to customize some kind of Arcane Priest DPS build based on the Starshard racial skill... while even in retail, a number of Druid spells use arcane magic as well if I remember correctly? (I am thinking Starfall, Celestial Alignment, Starsurge, Lunar Strike).

    Although I do not quite entirely agree with the OP, acknowledging that night and star-flavored spells belong to the arcane school of magic makes it very hard for me to entirely reject the notion that the arcane may be permanently embed in the night elves' racial theme despite of them applying and supporting a 10k years ban of mage-ing due to a previous abuse of magic from their leading cast.

    What I am trying to say is that when the night elves and the arcane arts are concerned, I feel it is mostly a fundamental matter of Balance.
    (I swear the pun was unintended, although I feel it fits the theme awesomely and will hence continue on those lines)

    As explained by the fore-mentioned priestess Vestia Moonspear:

    "Magic is a tool, some would even say a gift. But you should never forget its fundamental nature. Arcane magic twists the boundaries of our world. It weakens the laws of this realm to allow the impossible to happen, if only for a moment. That single moment is all a demon needs to wreak havoc. The Burning Legion has watched us for millenia, always waiting for the smallest rift to slip through, the smallest stirring to whisper from. Remember this, young ones. Every spell you cast, no matter how minor, cuts both ways. This is why sorcery must never be used frivolously."


    In short, even though the Darnassian night elves have undeniably gone through a 10k years ban of magic as a line of work thanks to previous abuse by Azshara and her Highborne, I feel it can be argued that they could never outright ban the usage of any spell from the school of arcane magic, as several of these belonged to both the worship of Elune (priest racial in Classic) and Nature's Balance (druid spells also in Retail), which thanks to Tyrande and Malfurion have been their two most prominent and iconic classes.

    So maybe the Night Elves could/should be seen as Defenders of Nature's Balance, which translates to both Life & Order (lawful neutral?) which according to the Titan cosmology charts makes them connected to both Nature and Arcane, whereas Defenders of Nature by itself, alone, would be mostly about chaotic neutral wilderness? (I am looking at you, Wild Gods/Loas!)

    On the contrary, if we acknowledged that the arcane is embed in the night/celestial element of the night elves and then attempted to remove it ENTIRELY... we would be left with elves whose priests could not worship Elune and whose druids could not use the Balance spec.

    I may be wrong of course, and I may change my opinion if pointed out to faults in the reasoning, but right now this is the best that I can come up with to try and reconcile Lore, game options and personal opinions I have encountered across these pages. :-)

  9. #109
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astranea View Post
    I am uncertain if this can be considered canon by any mean, but I certainly found it striking that of all possible choices, they went for some Arcane magic runes being handled by what seems to be an Elune priestess on the art for the upcoming Small World of Warcraft game...
    of course is not canon, they apparently went rying to show some races reflecting the racial eladers, the troll is clearly vol'jin, the worgen gen, the night elf is tyrande

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Night Elves were more powerful than both Thrall and Jaina's forces combined, given that the orcs at the time were a few ships worth of people who had to fight the Warsong and the 'Alliance' was just those refugees that went with Jaina, as compared to a continent-spanning power. The Night Elves never even knew Stormwind existed at that point and given that Stormwind got its ass handed to it by the Horde, the idea that they'd become a vassal power to it is beyond parody.
    im getting mixed messages here

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    the only misconseption u have is blizz giving a single f8ck about lore anymore since a while
    trying to make a race that was flat out anti-magic for 10k years and considered it the biggest blasphemy and their civilization is literally built on anti-arcane and druidism-nature love has exact same logic as 'demons are one and same across all universes, but their own boss Sargeras is unique in each universe since he is titan', aka bullsh8t

    blizz will do whatever they want if not obvious anymore since ages, they will shove any lore in our throats and we have to accept it, heck their own 'most accurate definition' of lore Chronicles is from creatures that spent 99% of their time dead and trapped as souls, having no access literally to any events outside of their prison world to know them, yet they are - according to blizz - the writers of Chronicles, the only thing that would make chronicles has no credibility is saying they were written by rats, in fact rats may know about Azeroth more than titans...

    Blizz even admitted the reason they made belfs join horde isn't lore or credibility or anything, but a poll asking asian players (who by TBC were almost 40% of playerbase, ironic since in wrath china banned it and they were unable to play it) what will make them play the game more and the asian players answered want a pretty race for horde (blizz isn't hiding that fact btw, u can easily google it)
    U think a company with that mentality really gives a single f8ck about lore on long term?

    - - - Updated - - -


    fixed
    alliance have a literally immortal race, a 10k years old warrior race, a 250 years old race, a light divine immortal race and so on, and all those exist how 'amazing superior' a single teenage boy is as long he is human
    if a nelf male wank just once a week he will have arm strength that no human can achieve, but yeah let's make humans lead alliance because they are self-inserted mental images of wow team
    What this guy says 100%

    The lore is just a dev fantasy wank fest anyway. Every time I want to get excited about it, it's like they go out of their way to remind me how pointless that is.

  11. #111
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    they had chimeras, faerie dragons, hypogryphs, druids of many forms, literal giants, demi gods among them
    you said right, they had
    wow for weird reason made ancients rare, chimeras and dragons left them? and hypogryph stuck as fly master pet, nelf in wow were horribly downgraded from wc3
    also they lost all that in wc3, they still kept them in TFT
    they were not that much either, most of the things you see in the campaign are not canon number and mostly done to have a fair number of units among all factions, after the third war their numbers decrease drastically, you also have to remember they were not a very populous race, not much births, typical of a long lived race with the man mostly sleeping.

    Same thing with the forsaken having lots of lots of undead stuff, but then its just some abominations

    in frozen throne campaign i think you follow Maiev no? there isn't much about other animals regardless.

    The point is, the elves were never that much super potency that people imagine off, they had quality, not numbers, remember how they got streamrolled by a single orc clan, when you lost numbers in the conflict and quality losing power, you kind get behind

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleific View Post
    2 factions of Highborne had more in common with each other culturally than a conservative nature-based Night Elven society of the same skin colour?
    To me what makes the Night elves different, is not as much that they are a nature based society as much as they have a nature based society.

    Difference? Well, it is true Night elves have the Highborne as a large part of their lore and history even though that group isn't a large part of the playable society, right?

    So they are an elf group that have these extreme elements to them - extreme nature forest lovers, extreme arcane and city lovers, extreme edgy fel lovers. I always found Wow night elves boring because at first I perceived them as just boring nature tree huggers. But when I got more involved in the game and forums, and people started talking about Highborne and Illidan, demon hunters etc, they admittedly became a lot more interesting. When I saw Suramar, I was rather impressed at blizzards vision of the night elven magical civilisation - admittedly it makes them a lot more interesting.

    But despite that, I still tbh prefer Blood elves, their whole colour scheme, aesthetic and vibe compared to that of both Night elves and nightborne, and I was one of the few horde fans that didn't care about the Nightborne joining the horde, I didn't covet a Night elf city. Unlike what the OP and his friends believe, I'm not a hordie that is against magical night elves or night elf cities. I also agree it makes them more interesting and is part of their story, but it still doesn't make them as interesting as blood elves. I certainly don't think its presence in them makes blood elves less relevant or anything like that, it's a different group with a different story that shares some commonality and history - I mean they are elves - were these guys expecting them to have 0 commonality?

    I have concluded that blizzard don't develop races to focus on elves - major ego blow that my favourite wasn't the most important to them. I know right? They actually develop each race as it's own thing, and aren't watching to go oh "hey! Tom, The horde group has this so we can't give the alliance this" or vice versa. That was most emphatically shown when the blood elves went to the horde. They've mostly developed races as their own peoples whenever they do, but lately, most of the time they don't, they really just develop the alliance as one race, and the horde as 1 nation. Race focus has dropped

    I was never one in favour Nightborne joining the horde, I think the void elves should have been on the horde, and if any race exchange happened we should have gotten Lightforged Draenei instead of Nightborne and they void elves (which was the right choice instead of high elves - keeping purple elves on the alliance, peach/white elves on the horde). Blood elves are supposed to be similar to Highborne, Moonguard, Nightborne types, - but they are not the same. Darkspears are not the same as Amani's though they are similar, or of Zandalari's. Why this surprises some people or acts as some fort of proof that night elves shouldn't be x or y is beyond me, they're elves dudes, were we expecting Night elves never to feel similar to blood elves in any part of their race? That's stupid, why call them elf if that's the intention? - I think it is interesting that the elves have a level of detail you don't see much in other races, but the utter lack of doing it properly with respect to racial integrity is proof to me that blizzard are faction focused, not race focused. So these issues are big to some of you players, but they are tiny to the developers. You are basing all your expectations on what are crumbs to the devs.

    But I really wish they would have kept all the night elves on one faction, and the Thalassians on another. But now it's mixed up, they can do what the hell they want. Sure, give them high elves, more Highborne, naga, tree elves, sea elves, sky elves whatever dudes. They should have developed their Highborne properly instead of giving them void elves if you ask me.

    Blizzard don't care about who's on which faction or x is more similar to y. Blood elves are much more similar to humans, but they're on the horde. So those expecting the Highborne aspect of the Night elves to only show up on the horde will be disappointed. Blizzard DON'T care about your special snowflake whine. They're going to give fans everything they want and like - you're dumb if you don't know this by now. They will change the lore to help the game 10 out of 10 times, and without hesitation. And I am expecting they are going to switch their focus to the alliance more in the coming expansions because live is now becoming the reverse of what original classic was. Most players are playing horde.
    Last edited by EnigmAddict; 2020-05-15 at 01:28 PM.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    im getting mixed messages here
    Nelves in WC3 were stronger than the Ally and Horde forces in WC3, who were both fairly small refugee groups. They were also in that incarnation stronger than Stormwind, since just a portion of Blackhand's Horde had steamrolled Stormwind. The Night Elves had not even met Stormwind. Ergo, the Night Elves becoming vassals of Stormwind in Vanilla and beyond was retarded.

    Over the years we can argue that with the ancients and their forest critters disappearing and the Horde bringing in more orc clans that weren't in the initial exodus into the fold this'd change, but as the status quo stood at the end of WC3 it's a massive stretch and done solely to give Alliance a Kalimdor race and to make a popular WC3 group playable.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Astranea View Post
    I am uncertain if this can be considered canon by any mean, but I certainly found it striking that of all possible choices, they went for some Arcane magic runes being handled by what seems to be an Elune priestess on the art for the upcoming Small World of Warcraft game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Astranea View Post
    Although I do not quite entirely agree with the OP, acknowledging that night and star-flavored spells belong to the arcane class of magic makes it very hard for me to entirely reject the notion that the arcane may be permanently embed in the night elves' racial theme despite of them applying and supporting a 10k years ban of mage-ing due to a previous abuse of magic from their leading cast.
    TBh, I don't know how much evidence other people need to convince them the arcane is embedded in the Night elves, always has been since they first introduced them in WC3 manual, and continues to be.

    The original post of this thread I made goes through every aspect of the night elf, whether Wc3, the novels, the books, wow and its expansions whether the highborne, the priests, the druids and shows basically evidence of the arcane there (I also show evidence of nature and Elune for balance purposes). I even quote a dev interview that tells the intention of what the night elves are and follow it by showing this is exactly how they built the race.

    Why some people still find it hard to believe is beyond me. I suspect because they played Wc3 1000 times and maybe levelled wow classic another 100 times, but never read the books, manuals or the quest details. so their information is visual based and what is meant to be a stage in their story is treated as exclusive core, and clear evidence in other material that isn't experienced repeatedly by them seems uncharacteristic or even a mistake to them by the very devs who write all of it. The arcane evidence in game comes in later levels, Legion was a 2year expecitence with 1 year focused on the Night elves, compared to 6 years of classic - most didn't spend time on cata quests nor read Wolfheart. - I am guessing this is why they keep thinking that druid arcane spells, night elf priest arcane spells are some sort of mistake - and either completely disregard the arcane evidence or go out of the way to actually count most of it as irrelevant.

    I mean, it's a lot of stuff and a lot of the narrative to disregard as irrelevant. One wonders why they just can't conclude that the Night elves are exactly what the devs have said they wanted them to be and shown them to be. None of it was a mistake, nor is it lore breaking.

    I have no idea what is so hard to imagine that some night elves are pure nature lover /dwellers i.e. druids, some Night elves are great arcane masters, wielders and developed great civilization i.e. Highborne types, some are priests be it gracious worshippers of Elune in elegant temples or hardcore female warrior types (sentinel/wardens)- I don't get what is so hard to accept that a race has multiple facets to them, and why some only accept the Night elves as forest elves when it's clear there's more to them.

    It's like anything to deny the Night elves have an arcane element in their very core , despite knowing how they are made, why their eyes glow, knowing full well they've been around the well of eternity for 15,000 years, with Moonwells, the arcane whether as a power source (long vigil group) or actually being wielded (Eldre'thalas and Suramar, Moonguard stronghooold comjmuniteis) has always been present with the race. THe huge role of the arcane in their history and it's presence in all their current groups as well I t been there quite strongly in some Night elf groups in all those 10k years after the sundering. Yet some regard only druid types or druid and priest types as night elves - which staggers belief even when you point out that Illidari, Shen'dralar, Moonguard, Nightborne are night elf types too - and you know what they respond? "oh but they're an insignificant amount " - and I'm like so that doesn't make them Night elven?

    I celebrate the diversity in the group, to me that's a major plus point for the team to do this for non-human races when most other game tittles and fantasy series often give the non-humans 1 single attribute - which frankly makes them feel quite limited and somehow unreal.

    I don't get why some struggle with it. My conclusion was faction bias. It's a suspicion, I have good cause to suspect, but at the end of the day, only they can answer. People lie about their motives all the times, even to themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astranea View Post
    What I am trying to say is that when the night elves and the arcane arts are concerned, I feel it is mostly a fundamental matter of Balance.
    (I swear the pun was unintended, although I feel it fits the theme awesomely and will hence continue on those lines)

    As explained by the fore-mentioned priestess Vestia Moonspear:

    "Magic is a tool, some would even say a gift. But you should never forget its fundamental nature. Arcane magic twists the boundaries of our world. It weakens the laws of this realm to allow the impossible to happen, if only for a moment. That single moment is all a demon needs to wreak havoc. The Burning Legion has watched us for millenia, always waiting for the smallest rift to slip through, the smallest stirring to whisper from. Remember this, young ones. Every spell you cast, no matter how minor, cuts both ways. This is why sorcery must never be used frivolously."

    In short, even though the Darnassian night elves have undeniably gone through a 10k years ban of magic as a line of work thanks to previous abuse by Azshara and her Highborne, I feel it can be argued that they could never outright ban the usage of any spell from the school of arcane magic, as several of these belonged to both the worship of Elune (priest racial in Classic) and Nature's Balance (druid spells also in Retail), which thanks to Tyrande and Malfurion have been their two most prominent and iconic classes.

    So maybe the Night Elves could/should be seen as Defenders of Nature's Balance, which translates to both Life & Order (lawful neutral?) which according to the Titan cosmology charts makes them connected to both Nature and Arcane, whereas Defenders of Nature by itself, alone, would be mostly about chaotic neutral wilderness? (I am looking at you, Wild Gods/Loas!)

    On the contrary, if we acknowledged that the arcane is embed in the night/celestial element of the night elves and then attempted to remove it ENTIRELY... we would be left with elves whose priests could not worship Elune and whose druids could not use the Balance spec.

    I may be wrong of course, and I may change my opinion if pointed out to faults in the reasoning, but right now this is the best that I can come up with to try and reconcile Lore, game options and personal opinions I have encountered across these pages. :-)
    I think the pun is well suited btw, I think this is the concept the developers wanted to go with in the Night elves. balance. The balance druid signifines it well, you have the pure arcane speplls, and the pure nature spells, just likey ou havd the pure arcane period and the pure nature period (well mostly poure), but it's operating in balance that yields the best result).

    To me, this is the unique theme of the night elves, - it was never that they are some nature version of the blood elves..no, the night elves always had the arcane in their story, so how can anyone conclude the main intention of them was to be nature forest elves or the nature version of the blood elves, especially after seeing the Nightborne who visualise the arcane civilization of the night elves and the very Highborne that are still night elves and play a role in the Darnassians.

    Perhaps, less obvious themes are not the strong suit of some of our readers/players, but I'm taking a lot of time out to explain to them what it is. Yet, they just summarise me as some alliance fanatic pushing for what the horde wants revealing their mindset all too clarly and giving me insight to why they are unable to see what is right infront of them even after pointing it out.

    Well, tbh, I enjoyed this aspect of the Night elves, and I'm glad to see the devs haven't changed it in 20 years, but instead expanded it a little and actively show it in game now rather than just in the novels. So I'm going try to stop showing and convincing them. It's all there, I've done this topic - the material is all on the lore. They can draw their own conclusion whether incorrect t or correct.

    Anyway, I like the point you made, I think it is perceptive. I wonder if people would tell you what they agree with or like about what you said, or would just criticise. I wonder if they'd read everything or just skim and bulge at a bit they don't agree with, angrily responded instead of considering everything properly.

    Anyway, thank you for your contribution. I appreciate it.
    Last edited by Mace; 2020-05-15 at 01:29 PM.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuor View Post
    The problem is that NElfs only started calling themselves Night Elfs after they banned magic, at that time none of the highborne had time yet to evolve into other races (Blood Elves, Naga, Satyr), the NElf mages we play in-game, remained Highborne and never got twisted into deeper kind of magic like other Highborne. Those Highborne lost their imortality at the same time NElfs did, which proves they were still both the same race, even that those Highborne haven't been part of the NElf society. Highborne are not NElfs at all, they only reunited with NElfs at the time Deathwing was destroying the world. They lived separeted from NElfs for over 10k years, and even today they don't fit the NElf standart. But they not a diferent race like Blood Elfs, i cal them Kaldo'rei, if you or anyone else has a real name for that race, then feel free to post it here, one thing i have sure, that race already existed much before the NElfs stated to call themselves that way.

    So, to finish, all Druids (even being part of the Cenarion Circle), all Priests, all sentinels came from the group that banned Highborne and sterted calling themselves NElfs. Highborne have never been part of the NElf society until Deathwing came, that was 10k year after NElfs started calling like that, i think they still aren't quite NElfs.
    As for DH's and DK's they were born NElf's, being the exception Ilidian, but even Ilidian initially adopted the NElf tradition of not using magic...He got twisted later, if i'm not mistaken.
    I don't really follow, they are still kaldorei, 10k years ago, they were Kaldorei, whether they were in Hyjal, Eldre'thalas or Suramar they were still Kaldorei. There are different kinds of Kaldorei, different castes within them to, Hihgobnre is the name of a famous caste amongst them.

    Why do you feel the Highborne aren't Kaldorei or Night elves? Do humans who have various different lifestyles that are completely different somehow qualify as not human because you are only familiar with one of their societies? Surely the information simply tells you that there are different kinds of night elves rather than the arcane ones aren't night elves but only the priest and druid ones are.

    I'm sorry, but it seems broken. Highborne that became Satyr or Naga or High elves are no longer Night elves are they - they're satyr, naga or high elves. But those who remain night elves are night elves. I think you're over-complicating something that's really simple. Highborne is a term used to refer to a Night elven noble caste. That's what its there for. That some highborne change to high elf, satyr, naga or whatever doesn't change that, all it tdoes is connect satyr, naga, high elf to Highborne and Night elf, it doesn't some how make the original Highborne no longer night elven. That's just crazy. Highborne isn't a race, it's a night elf caste. High elf is a race, Satyr is a race, Naga is a race, Night elf is a race.
    Last edited by EnigmAddict; 2020-05-15 at 02:57 PM.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    I don't really follow, they are still kaldorei, 10k years ago, they were Kaldorei, whether they were in Hyjal, Eldre'thalas or Suramar they were still Kaldorei. There are different kinds of Kaldorei, different castes within them to, Hihgobnre is the name of a famous caste amongst them.

    Why do you feel the Highborne aren't Kaldorei or Night elves? Do humans who have various different lifestyles that are completely different somehow qualify as not human because you are only familiar with one of their societies? Surely the information simply tells you that there are different kinds of night elves rather than the arcane ones aren't night elves but only the priest and druid ones are.

    I'm sorry, but it seems broken. Highborne that became Satyr or Naga or High elves are no longer Night elves are they - they're satyr, naga or high elves. But those who remain night elves are night elves. I think you're over-complicating something that's really simple. Highborne is a term used to refer to a Night elven noble caste. That's what its there for. That some highborne change to high elf, satyr, naga or whatever doesn't change that, all it tdoes is connect satyr, naga, high elf to Highborne and Night elf, it doesn't some how make the original Highborne no longer night elven. That's just crazy. Highborne isn't a race, it's a night elf caste. High elf is a race, Satyr is a race, Naga is a race, Night elf is a race.
    @Tuor
    I don't understand those who think high elves are a Highborne race. That doesn't make sense. The race is called high elf. The race quel'dorei (Thalassian) is not the same as the caste Quel'dorei (Darnassian), but there is a connection, because quel'dorei (Thalassian) i.e. high elf are descendants of Quel'dorei (Darnassian caste) that became it's own race. It would be incorrect to refer to a high elf as a Highborne (this is why different terms are used), but a high elf can claim the heritage of the his Highborne ancestors, the same way an Irish American can claim the heritage of the Irish - but he isn't Irish, he's American. To then go and say the Irish are not Irish, because a lot went over to America and you have a much larger Irish American population than actual Irish and all similar such, is just nonsense.

    When they say Highborne, they mean kaldorei elite magic using caste, always! - They don't mean high elves, they don't mean Blood elves, they don't mean satyr, they don't mean naga. They mean night elven old societies most noble caste. When they say high elves they mean high elves, when they say blood elves they mean blood elves but the name of the race of the blood elf is high elf. When they say Naga, they mean naga. We have names for each of the races, we also have names for some of their castes, factions, orders etc. It's why you normally write night elf and kaldorei (in sentences) but always write Highborne with a capital H because it's a name of group. You are a Korean, but as a Korean you are human (not Human). You are a Highborne, but as a Highborne you are kaldorei. [Yes, most people, including myself often don't respect the correct grammatical presentation we are supposed to. The Naga, The Night Elves - when said like that often denotes faction not race, a night elf - when said like that is denoting race, not faction. For a long time, up to the introduction wow, the race night elf and the faction The Night Elves were the same thing and interchangeable, even though one referred to the political faction, and the other to the genetic race.

    When we discovered that there were other night elf communities like the Illidari, Shen'dralar, Nightborne, Moonguard, Cenarion Circle, Dreamwardens etc not part of what we called The Night Elves - we could no longer think of the two as indistinguishable. The society that we use to simply refer to as The Night Elves, we now need to call the Darnassians when talking about the WoW faction and the Long Vigil Night elven group when referring to the WC3 night elf group we play with and all matters pertaining to that specific groups history.

    That's just the reality of it. The Shen'dralar, Moonguard, Dreamwardens, Cenarion Circle, Illidari that are night elves are night elves, but they're not part of the Darnassians (well the Shen'dralar are now included in the Darnassians and are restoring and building up the Highborne caste).
    Last edited by Mace; 2020-05-15 at 03:15 PM.

  17. #117
    Pandaren Monk Tuor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    There are different kinds of Kaldorei, different castes within them to, Hihgobnre is the name of a famous caste amongst them.
    The Highborne were the cast that rulled all the elfs, in a feudal middle-ages style.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    Why do you feel the Highborne aren't Kaldorei or Night elves?
    The Highborne are kaldorei just like any other NElf, but they not NElf's, because NElfs (all other non highborne Elfs) only started to call themselves that way after they banned the rulling Highborne cast.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    I'm sorry, but it seems broken. Highborne that became Satyr or Naga or High elves are no longer Night elves are they - they're satyr, naga or high elves.
    Correct, they no longer Kaldorei, High Elfs and Blood Elfs are both Sindorei, they evolved into diferent races.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    But those who remain night elves are night elves.
    The problem is that NElfs is a faction inside the Kaldorei race, being the other faction the Highborn. Same thing with Blood Elfs and High Elfs, they the same race, they Sindorei, but two separate factions within the same race.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    I think you're over-complicating something that's really simple. Highborne is a term used to refer to a Night elven noble caste.
    Yes, except when those Highborne rulled over the other Elfs, Night Elfs didn't existed yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    That's what its there for. That some highborne change to high elf, satyr, naga or whatever doesn't change that, all it tdoes is connect satyr, naga, high elf to Highborne and Night elf, it doesn't some how make the original Highborne no longer night elven. That's just crazy
    As i've said, the reason they are not NElfs is because they got banned. For over 10k years the highborn haven't been a part of the Night Elfs society, even being the same race. Again, NElfs and Highborn are separate factions of the same race.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    @TuorI don't understand those who think high elves are a Highborne race.
    They not, High Elfs and Blood Elfs are Sindorei, they evolved from the banned Highborn that remained in the Eastern Kingdoms after the arcane spell separeted kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms. So High Elfs and Highborn are not the same race at all. But the Sindorei (High Elfs and Blood Elfs), the Satyr and the Naga they all evolved from the original Highborn noble cast, the ones that refused to stop using magic.

    EDIT:
    All Elfs, the Naga and the Satyr, they all evolved from the original Kaldorei. NElfs and Highborn are still Kaldorei, the others are not.
    Last edited by Tuor; 2020-05-15 at 03:26 PM.

  18. #118
    Immortal sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you said right, they had
    again u don't really answer
    why they 'had', they still have, if u talk about tft it was the time they added mountain giants to their ranks, again in tft nelf lost nothing
    why did mountain giants pack their sh8t and leave nelf society ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    they were not that much either, most of the things you see in the campaign are not canon number and mostly done to have a fair number of units among all factions, after the third war their numbers decrease drastically, you also have to remember they were not a very populous race, not much births, typical of a long lived race with the man mostly sleeping.
    they are also the same race that fought the shifting sands war, if u forgot it, yes they have low birth rate, but they are literally immortals and outside of the shifting sands war, they only increased in population, they were immune to even disease, they don't die unless killed, and no one tried to kill them

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Same thing with the forsaken having lots of lots of undead stuff, but then its just some abominations
    if u talk about wc3, that was entire scourge faction, the playable forsaken are the meek low ranks who got kicked out, they were never represented in wow as showing the scourge, it is why alliance never took them, because they are weak, and alliance favorite hobby across wc history is genocide against weaker races (as they literally did to trolls, tried on goblins, belfs, etc)
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  19. #119
    @sam86 and @Syegfryed

    I've also wondered at their relative numbers. OP and his group are convinced they actually weren't that numerous, had very low birth rates and pretty much stayed mainly the core groupt hat survived teh sundering.

    The reasons given were the Long Vigil mandate and work. Most of the men were druids, their duty was totally devoted to nature, many sleeping for 1000s of years - which means you ain't making that many babies, and it's not life a normal either - seeing you're working with dragons and wild gods to fixx the world.

    The women were mostly in charge of the soceity, but again it wasn't your stay at home wife, let's get a familiy going sort of life or the let's rebuild life that Darth'remar wanted them to start, it was a le'ts hunt for traitors, Satyrs, cut off every one from coming close to the Well of Eternity so they don't learn of its secrets, get seduced by the pure, learn magic and ultimately call the legion back. - so they'd be constnatly on the move fulfilling this mission - not doing life as normal (i.e. pre-sundering) or what most races do.

    So there numbers would have grown only a little . But since we don't know how many survived the first genocide and Sundering, it's hrad to tell.

    WC3 - they lost a lot of lives, this is clear, they also lose a lot of wisps.

    Cataclysm - they also lose some lives in the war effort.

    Legion - seeing that 3/5 zones were night elf based, we see Val'sharah and Suramr (Moonguard stronghold ) lose a lot of lives.

    WoT - they have their second racial genocide, when most night elves are killed when teh tree is burnt. - leaving the more highly trained force of Sentinels that were enroute to Silithus, Night elven druids in the Cenarion circle who didn't answer the call of the forest (which can't be that many), and Highborne caste members who were mostly on portal duty or away on business with the Kirin'tor



    Have I missed anything out?

  20. #120
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    again u don't really answer
    i think i answer fairly, after warcraft they lost power, magic, numbers and beasts, and never being able to replenish their numbers
    why they 'had', they still have, if u talk about tft it was the time they added mountain giants to their ranks, again in tft nelf lost nothing
    why did mountain giants pack their sh8t and leave nelf society ?
    dumb mountain giants rly are part of a "society"? what you want then to do, be playable? cause if it is to help as canon folder i think they still do, with treants, i did a few quests with then back then.

    the giants were not that numerous either

    they are also the same race that fought the shifting sands war, if u forgot it, yes they have low birth rate, but they are literally immortals and outside of the shifting sands war
    Fight a war also lower your numbers, and they had dragon help
    they only increased in population,
    how with the men sleeping?
    they were immune to even disease, they don't die unless killed, and no one tried to kill them
    and warcraft 3 happened, when the lost everything
    if u talk about wc3, that was entire scourge faction, the playable forsaken are the meek low ranks who got kicked out, they were never represented in wow as showing the scourge, it is why alliance never took them, because they are weak, and alliance favorite hobby across wc history is genocide against weaker races (as they literally did to trolls, tried on goblins, belfs, etc)
    in wc3 as forsaken you had plenty of undead options too, just saying both got cut, and there was not canon numbers back then

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