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  1. #261
    Bloodsail Admiral Srg56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Just to jump in for a second, and ask if you’re even going to answer is his/her post? Or are you just going to make an argument that doesn’t exist to try and dodge what he/she brought up?
    You seem to not know much about arenas or actually think that his reply was a gacha moment. Hunters have always been a difficult class to rank up in arenas with and rogues have always had better synergy with almost every class except maybe warriors. Due to their toolbox, rogues are one of the best classes to do arenas with.

    He initially changed the topic from hunter's mark being an effective tool to hunters not being very good at their supposed job, which was countering rogues, and he didn't specify anything else or go in depth. I then replied that hunters have plenty of tools to deal with rogues to which he again changed the topic to the hunter class not being very good in arenas compared to rogues.


    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    In which case would you need Hunter's mark outside pvp, raid or mm+ ?
    Personally, i don't mind constantly using the ability on every mob. I had it keybinded to Q and used it way before i even got in range of the target. Having an attack power boost on it always felt nice but i'm for removing it and keeping the rest of the functionality if others don't like it. For me, hunter's mark is mostly a pvp tool. In pve, it has much less use, except maybe for pointing out mobs to others. I hope you're not strictly equating arenas with "pvp" here. There's random battlegrounds and world pvp in which you really need it to prevent targets from escaping. That's the context in which i grew to appreciate the ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    When looking at how it is implemented, it reminds me of the flame's shock Shaman. You will need to weave it after an aimshot for it to be worthwhile on low hp target.
    Obviously, it makes the hunter weaker on frequent target switch. It is only for MM or BM is affected as well ?
    As for it's implementation, i would point to the following post, earlier in the thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Noctiphobia View Post
    Remove damage increase from it. Keep stealth detection. Then you have an ability that isn't always useful, but when you actually use it, it's meaningful.
    Having damage increase on it just so that you use it on everything you attack is stupid and boring.
    I have nothing against this, because it keeps the function, without bothering others who don't want to keep using an ability that only provides an attack power boost outside PvP content.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Srg56 View Post
    You seem to not know much about arenas or actually think that his reply was a gacha moment. Hunters have always been a difficult class to rank up in arenas with and rogues have always had better synergy with almost every class except maybe warriors. Due to their toolbox, rogues are one of the best classes to do arenas with.

    He initially changed the topic from hunter's mark being an effective tool to hunters not being very good at their supposed job, which was countering rogues, and he didn't specify anything else or go in depth. I then replied that hunters have plenty of tools to deal with rogues to which he again changed the topic to the hunter class not being very good in arenas compared to rogues.




    Personally, i don't mind constantly using the ability on every mob. I had it keybinded to Q and used it way before i even got in range of the target. Having an attack power boost on it always felt nice but i'm for removing it and keeping the rest of the functionality if others don't like it. For me, hunter's mark is mostly a pvp tool. In pve, it has much less use, except maybe for pointing out mobs to others. I hope you're not strictly equating arenas with "pvp" here. There's random battlegrounds and world pvp in which you really need it to prevent targets from escaping. That's the context in which i grew to appreciate the ability.


    As for it's implementation, i would point to the following post, earlier in the thread:


    I have nothing against this, because it keeps the function, without bothering others who don't want to keep using an ability that only provides an attack power boost outside PvP content.
    Obviously, I would like to see the dmg boost removed and baked in the others abilities. And we could keep the utilities on it for pvp and pve.

    That is what I was pointed out, quite subtly.

  3. #263
    Bloodsail Admiral Srg56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Obviously, I would like to see the dmg boost removed and baked in the others abilities. And we could keep the utilities on it for pvp and pve.

    That is what I was pointed out, quite subtly.
    I would apologize for not reading your reply carefully enough to grasp your effort to push the discussion in that direction, which we both agree on, if you had read the thread carefully enough to see that i agreed with this same suggestion two pages ago:
    Quote Originally Posted by Srg56 View Post
    This is actually a very good idea because it takes away the OCD some people have of always being optimal when doing anything in the game.



    The ability's main purpose is to literally tag players you choose so you know where they are at all times, even if they turn invisible or go into stealth. It even shows them on your mini map. As much as i like interesting abilities which chain into others like combos in fighting games, some should just be simple but effective.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    You don´t even have to use it, make a macro..
    If you don't use it you give up a whopping 5% damage. It's on the GCD so it can't be macroed in transparently.

  5. #265
    Had to bring this thread back up since Blizzard just decided to nerf it a bit by adding a 20 second CD on it, with a reset if the target dies. Definitely going to make priority target swapping have to be a little more planned out, if you look at fights like Drest.
    Not a huge upset to the usage, but definitely means players will have to think a little ahead of the curve to make proper usage of it.
    Just a for instance, on Nzoth, you wold have to use HM on the specific synapse you are going to kill to make sure you get full damage on them while getting a reset on a kill. Otherwise, you use it on Psychus and lose the damage on synapse. If you accidentally mark a small add or the wrong synapse then you screw yourself for 20 seconds or until the add dies. If you Mark N’zoth and then adds need to die to avoid another cast then you have to do without the added damage on the add.
    Bear in mind, I’m using these scenarios as examples of future fights, not using them specifically as this current point in time where people highly outgear the fights and we don’t really have to worry about these things. I’m discussing fights with this design in place during progression.

  6. #266
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Had to bring this thread back up since Blizzard just decided to nerf it a bit by adding a 20 second CD on it, with a reset if the target dies. Definitely going to make priority target swapping have to be a little more planned out, if you look at fights like Drest.
    Not a huge upset to the usage, but definitely means players will have to think a little ahead of the curve to make proper usage of it.
    Just a for instance, on Nzoth, you wold have to use HM on the specific synapse you are going to kill to make sure you get full damage on them while getting a reset on a kill. Otherwise, you use it on Psychus and lose the damage on synapse. If you accidentally mark a small add or the wrong synapse then you screw yourself for 20 seconds or until the add dies. If you Mark N’zoth and then adds need to die to avoid another cast then you have to do without the added damage on the add.
    Bear in mind, I’m using these scenarios as examples of future fights, not using them specifically as this current point in time where people highly outgear the fights and we don’t really have to worry about these things. I’m discussing fights with this design in place during progression.
    A quick rule of thumb is that if it takes less than 20 seconds to kill the target, applying Hunter's Mark is a dps loss.

    Hunter's Mark is a 5% buff for one GCD. 20 seconds has 15-20 GCD's depending on your haste. 1/20 = 5%. Not all GCD's are obviously equal, but this is napkin math.

    So, obviously you shouldn't be applying Hunter's Mark on synapses regardless of whether there is a cooldown on the ability or not. Except if you have free GCD's.
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i've said i'd like to have one of those bad dragon dildos shaped like a horse, because the shape is nicer than human.
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i was talking about horse cock again, told him to look at your sig.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    A quick rule of thumb is that if it takes less than 20 seconds to kill the target, applying Hunter's Mark is a dps loss.

    Hunter's Mark is a 5% buff for one GCD. 20 seconds has 15-20 GCD's depending on your haste. 1/20 = 5%. Not all GCD's are obviously equal, but this is napkin math.

    So, obviously you shouldn't be applying Hunter's Mark on synapses regardless of whether there is a cooldown on the ability or not. Except if you have free GCD's.
    But as stated, if you mark a target, such as N’zoth, and then need to hard swap to the adds then you lost 20 seconds of increased damage on the priority target. I also brought up if you mark the wrong target thru tab targeting instead of having a macro (for example, some people don’t have target macro for Basher tentacles). Marking a Warrior in a BG just to have the Rogue show up and not being able to mark them before a Vanish.
    You lose the ability to target swap in some situations.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    A quick rule of thumb is that if it takes less than 20 seconds to kill the target, applying Hunter's Mark is a dps loss.

    Hunter's Mark is a 5% buff for one GCD. 20 seconds has 15-20 GCD's depending on your haste. 1/20 = 5%. Not all GCD's are obviously equal, but this is napkin math.

    So, obviously you shouldn't be applying Hunter's Mark on synapses regardless of whether there is a cooldown on the ability or not. Except if you have free GCD's.
    The GCD you’ll lose will be a cobra shot since the other abilities have CDs or Buffs.

    You’ll gain 5% extra damage on your dots, kill commands and kill shots which can be a lot of extra damage and worth wasting one cobra shot for.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The GCD you’ll lose will be a cobra shot since the other abilities have CDs or Buffs.

    You’ll gain 5% extra damage on your dots, kill commands and kill shots which can be a lot of extra damage and worth wasting one cobra shot for.
    Not to get into semantics, but you could still be delaying damage (KC, KS, etc.) to start, depending on the situation.

    Personally, I'm against Hunter's Mark being added back baseline in this fashion.
    Counting the covenant stuff along with KS, that's at least 4 active abilities added to my bars. I didn't sign up for all of that.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by AbsolutVodka View Post
    Agreed. I know most will just say, "it's just one button and you only have to hit it once", but it just seems like a needless necessity. An extra button to press with little interactivity with it's most major benefit mostly being for PVP for stealth tracking.
    'its just one button' is an argument against it if anything.

    There is a reason certain abilities were pruned and i have a gut feeling that this expansion is going to be a big reminder of why. I havent seen any abilities coming back that im excited to see other than some of the goofy fun abilities (sentry totem, eyes of the beast and mind soothe since none of them actually affect performance)

    We dont need zombie abilities, if they are going to bring it back from the dead they cant leave it in its rotted and decayed state, they need to update it and modernize it.
    There are ways the hunters mark effect can work and feel good, and ways that just suck, they just need to make it not suck.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    'its just one button' is an argument against it if anything.

    There is a reason certain abilities were pruned and i have a gut feeling that this expansion is going to be a big reminder of why. I havent seen any abilities coming back that im excited to see other than some of the goofy fun abilities (sentry totem, eyes of the beast and mind soothe since none of them actually affect performance)

    We dont need zombie abilities, if they are going to bring it back from the dead they cant leave it in its rotted and decayed state, they need to update it and modernize it.
    There are ways the hunters mark effect can work and feel good, and ways that just suck, they just need to make it not suck.
    I missed Mind Soothe & it's back! Call it goofy all you want, but I always loved that spell..

  12. #272
    The biggest problem with HM is that it is such a non-presence in the rotation. You use it only when you switch targets, awkwardly having to waste a GCD to do so.
    The ability could be chagned ot give a more immediate effect to make it feel better. Now that it has a cooldown it would be even more fitting. Just as an example the ability could be:

    Hunter's Mark:
    Mark a target, allowing oyu to see them through invisibility and increases damage you deal to them by 5%. Also increases the range at which you can attack this add by an additional 10%.
    When you use this ability you immediately gain 20 focus and 10% extra damage on (X main ability). When the target dies gain 5% haste and reset the cooldown on this ability.

    This way the ability would feel good to use in the rotation. It wouldnt do much, but it would create at least a modicum on interplay. As it currently exists it is just busywork.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinaa View Post
    I missed Mind Soothe & it's back! Call it goofy all you want, but I always loved that spell..
    I remember skipping packs in that blackrock dungeon in cata, and generally just trying to help the dungeon out with it. Helped with sneaking past some enemies in open world. Its a fun ability that can exist or not without affecting priest performance, those abilities are perfectly fine and shouldnt have been removed since they were literally nothing but flavor, hunters mark though is performance and needs work done because if it affects performance, its mandatory.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Had to bring this thread back up since Blizzard just decided to nerf it a bit by adding a 20 second CD on it, with a reset if the target dies. Definitely going to make priority target swapping have to be a little more planned out, if you look at fights like Drest.
    Not a huge upset to the usage, but definitely means players will have to think a little ahead of the curve to make proper usage of it.
    Just a for instance, on Nzoth, you wold have to use HM on the specific synapse you are going to kill to make sure you get full damage on them while getting a reset on a kill. Otherwise, you use it on Psychus and lose the damage on synapse. If you accidentally mark a small add or the wrong synapse then you screw yourself for 20 seconds or until the add dies. If you Mark N’zoth and then adds need to die to avoid another cast then you have to do without the added damage on the add.
    Bear in mind, I’m using these scenarios as examples of future fights, not using them specifically as this current point in time where people highly outgear the fights and we don’t really have to worry about these things. I’m discussing fights with this design in place during progression.
    Lol if you were using HM on synapses - you were doing it wrong....lmao those things live for like 4-5 seconds, and if some tank's TD proccs, it can outright fall in 1.5 seconds.


    HM on single target - never have to recast it

    HM on AoE - cast it on the biggest hp add, or the biggest priority and cleave off of him.


    I believe this is the intended way of using HM. I think people are mistaken - our single target is balanced around HM uptime, AoE is not.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The biggest problem with HM is that it is such a non-presence in the rotation. You use it only when you switch targets, awkwardly having to waste a GCD to do so.
    Have you actually tried playing with it on the beta? It's completely fine. We have a lot of free GCDs in our AOE rotation so using HM when switching targets is pretty smooth. I think people should try to play with it before they complain, because although it is not the most exciting ability in the world, it is completely fine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    I think people are mistaken - our single target is balanced around HM uptime, AoE is not.
    Exactly. The tuning of beast cleave (for example) will be the same no matter if HM is in the game or not. If people think they are going to reduce the damage of beast cleave to compensate for HM they are wrong.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    Lol if you were using HM on synapses - you were doing it wrong....lmao those things live for like 4-5 seconds, and if some tank's TD proccs, it can outright fall in 1.5 seconds.


    HM on single target - never have to recast it

    HM on AoE - cast it on the biggest hp add, or the biggest priority and cleave off of him.


    I believe this is the intended way of using HM. I think people are mistaken - our single target is balanced around HM uptime, AoE is not.
    Do people even read and try to comprehend a post before responding? Yes, I was completely using an ability that doesn’t exist outside of MM on Synapses. It was an example of future fights and does not apply to current progression, which I clearly stated.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Have you actually tried playing with it on the beta? It's completely fine. We have a lot of free GCDs in our AOE rotation so using HM when switching targets is pretty smooth. I think people should try to play with it before they complain, because although it is not the most exciting ability in the world, it is completely fine.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Exactly. The tuning of beast cleave (for example) will be the same no matter if HM is in the game or not. If people think they are going to reduce the damage of beast cleave to compensate for HM they are wrong.
    It is reduced. The fact that HM grants 5% increased damage directly shows that. HM let’s the Hunter do 100% available damage in the toolkit. If you don’t use it in every available situation you are nerfing your own damage.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    It is reduced. The fact that HM grants 5% increased damage directly shows that. HM let’s the Hunter do 100% available damage in the toolkit. If you don’t use it in every available situation you are nerfing your own damage.
    I understand that. But HM only affects a single target so Blizzard have not tuned AOE based on HM. You can see that in the beta. And isn't that what matters in the end? If Hunter still does very competitive damage in AOE then everything is fine.

    I personally think you are overreacting with this. I have played with HM on the beta and it feel completely fine. It's pretty smooth to use in dungeons since we have a lot of free GCDs in our AOE rotation and Hunter does really good damage. So there isn't really anything to worry about. It's not so important how it looks on the paper if it feels fine in practice.

  18. #278
    Ok, the point still stands - you wouldn't have, and MM should not use HM on synapse adds, because it would be a dps loss - the time it takes them to die, you would pump more dmg with just your abilities, much more then 5% dmg buff would compensate for.

    I remained unconvinced that our AoE is balanced around HM for the same reason - i think HM prioritizing on trash pack adds is a 5% bonus, not ''taken for granted''. And you will be able to spare a couple of globals, from pack to pack, to mark the new target. It will also come in handy when you learn the mechanics of a dungeon, so after you memorize which adds are especially dangerous, you can mark them - i think that is really cool actually.

    I can't understand people who are panicking over having to recast it every 20 seconds. The latest change did make the spell more annoying tho, now you will get punished if you mark the target by mistake, but the fundamentals are still the same.

    I don't think it is an exciting ability, but successfully prioritizing it would set you apart from fellow hunters who are less adept at switching it around. It may annoy you, but it is a gameplay element that needs maintenance, and adds at least some depth.

    p.s. Instead of HM, if you have beta and or access to beta forums, post your feedback about the focus problems all hunter specs have. MM would be a really good, complete spec if they revert some of the focus nerfs (most notably, just make Precise shots reduce the focus cost of buffed abilites). Blizzard obviously wants to make resource management a bigger part of hunter gameplay, and that is fine, but there is middleground which needs to be found right now.
    Last edited by Jamais; 2020-09-06 at 09:15 AM.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Have you actually tried playing with it on the beta? It's completely fine. We have a lot of free GCDs in our AOE rotation so using HM when switching targets is pretty smooth. I think people should try to play with it before they complain, because although it is not the most exciting ability in the world, it is completely fine.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Exactly. The tuning of beast cleave (for example) will be the same no matter if HM is in the game or not. If people think they are going to reduce the damage of beast cleave to compensate for HM they are wrong.
    I play MM, I have used it the entirety of BfA where I could just about tolerate it fine then, but in Shadowlands where the pile of random abilities have become even bigger I don't think I am being unreasonable when I say I really don't want to have Hunter's Mark clog up my action bar.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    Ok, the point still stands - you wouldn't have, and MM should not use HM on synapse adds, because it would be a dps loss - the time it takes them to die, you would pump more dmg with just your abilities, much more then 5% dmg buff would compensate for.

    I remained unconvinced that our AoE is balanced around HM for the same reason - i think HM prioritizing on trash pack adds is a 5% bonus, not ''taken for granted''. And you will be able to spare a couple of globals, from pack to pack, to mark the new target. It will also come in handy when you learn the mechanics of a dungeon, so after you memorize which adds are especially dangerous, you can mark them - i think that is really cool actually.

    I can't understand people who are panicking over having to recast it every 20 seconds. The latest change did make the spell more annoying tho, now you will get punished if you mark the target by mistake, but the fundamentals are still the same.

    I don't think it is an exciting ability, but successfully prioritizing it would set you apart from fellow hunters who are less adept at switching it around. It may annoy you, but it is a gameplay element that needs maintenance, and adds at least some depth.

    p.s. Instead of HM, if you have beta and or access to beta forums, post your feedback about the focus problems all hunter specs have. MM would be a really good, complete spec if they revert some of the focus nerfs (most notably, just make Precise shots reduce the focus cost of buffed abilites). Blizzard obviously wants to make resource management a bigger part of hunter gameplay, and that is fine, but there is middleground which needs to be found right now.
    There is absolutely nothing to worry about. On the beta hunters do very good AOE damage no matter what. We don't even need to use HM on AOE packs as it wont affect the overall AOE damage much. We do great AOE damage no matter what. On single target you will of course lose out a lot if you don't use HM but in AOE scenarios it wont have much impact on the overall total AOE damage. We are in a great spot for both dungeons and raids. No need to worry.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I don't think I am being unreasonable when I say I really don't want to have Hunter's Mark clog up my action bar.
    Personally I think you are. It plays perfectly fine on the beta for both MM and BM. It doesn't clog anything up in my opinion. We have plenty of free GCDs in our AOE rotation to use it, and even if we don't use it in an AOE scenario we still do very competitive damage. In practice everything works out fine.

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