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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Long term solution would be to make sure all the abilities have cool and meaningful immediate effect, but that would require more work than just fucking with some variables.
    Not saying hunters are on this, but certain classes have always been delayed gratification. Aff lock most notably, rogue to a lesser extent.

    I don't think pushing literally every class to be instant gratification design is what the game should do. It should attempt to retain some unique feel among the classes as far as how they do their jobs so people can pick and choose based on more than just aesthetics and "class fantasy."

  2. #42
    Lots of arguments in this thread can be boiled down to, "its a boring button to press that should just be baseline macro'd into our abilities" and you could say the same with lots of things in wow. For example Rogue poison, why do I need buttons on which one to apply? Oh in pvp you use wound, so why not just add them all together and forget about it? The cool side of hunters mark comes from pvp where putting this ability on a rogue/druid/hunter can be very very useful and definitely worth the gcd.

    Yeah on a single target raid boss you use it and forget it but in most fights youll have to make a choice, do you need this extra 5% dmg at the cost of a gcd? The benefit is you get to make the choice and a good hunter will know when and where to swap hunters mark for the best benefit. Hunters that dont want to be bothered can just leave it on a target all fight and be fine. Its silly how people want to be casual and use 4 buttons while also thinking their play style should sim at the top.

    losing a 5% dmg buff brings you from 50k dps to 47.5k, assuming you are constantly attacking on a single target. that dps wont matter in most cases and if it does well you just need to get better to know how to maximize your dmg in a given fight/situation.

  3. #43
    Old God Orby's Avatar
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    I like Hunters Mark, my only problem is its needlessly on shared GCD. But thats more a case for GCD's problems not Hunters Mark... I dont want Blizzard to prune more and remove the ability I am fine with it being an ability. Just sort out the GCD changes.

  4. #44
    Stood in the Fire wildcardNS's Avatar
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    I shouldn't have to push a button that increases my damage!!!!!!! /retail

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Well, he's right though. Classic had a metric fuckton of spells/abilities but there was no point to the majority of them. They didn't do anything, really. And talent trees were even worse with putting a point into a talent that did next to nothing but it's somehow better than retail because you have more buttons to press. It's the definition of simpleton game design. So I guess have fun with your illusion of choice in Classic. I'd rather retail not revert to the ways of Vanilla where you have a bunch of abilities that are just there to take up space.
    "He's" not "right," "he's" espousing an opinion that I strongly disagree with. That is the point of these forums, debating ideas. Simpleton game design? Insult aside, how is removing buttons over a decade not making things more simple?

    You are falling for the age old false equivalency between choice and agency. The same mistake Blizzard has been making for years that has bled the sub numbers from 10M+ to something so low they dare not even share them anymore and implemented a cash shop to make up for it in shareholder meetings. I'm not saying, I'm just sayin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    None of us "retailers" or whatever you call us, "hate" classic.

    What we do hate are the players like you who come to threads like this to sneer at us and act in a condescending manner. Seriously, if Classic players would just go off and be happy with Classic and stop jumping at every opportunity to the retailers how much better they are, then things would be great.
    For starters, cool, 2 users ignored in one thread. Second, how dare you assume that person's gender. Third, look at their signature, they clearly have an axe to grind against classic. That's why I said what I said. I'm glad these opinions won't affect my personal enjoyment of the game in classic (mostly TBC when it hits). That's what I said, that's what I meant, and I won't take it back. You have to sub to retail to get classic, so we all have it, we all care about the direction of retail to a greater or lesser extent. If retail fails, it all fails.

    I'd love for the retail game to move back in the direction of agency--something Shadowlands appears to be doing to my shock and pleasure, but not quite there yet. Asking to prune hunter's mark is a step in the wrong direction, and something they'd probably do if the community asked them loud enough. Sadly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flantini View Post
    Lots of arguments in this thread can be boiled down to, "its a boring button to press that should just be baseline macro'd into our abilities" and you could say the same with lots of things in wow. For example Rogue poison, why do I need buttons on which one to apply? Oh in pvp you use wound, so why not just add them all together and forget about it? The cool side of hunters mark comes from pvp where putting this ability on a rogue/druid/hunter can be very very useful and definitely worth the gcd.
    ^ End thread IMO.
    Last edited by wildcardNS; 2020-05-15 at 06:52 PM.

    Thanks to Mipeo for pally's sig!

  5. #45
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcardNS View Post
    I shouldn't have to push a button that increases my damage!!!!!!! /retail



    "He's" not "right," "he's" espousing an opinion that I strongly disagree with. That is the point of these forums, debating ideas. Simpleton game design? Insult aside, how is removing buttons over a decade not making things more simple?

    You are falling for the age old false equivalency between choice and agency. The same mistake Blizzard has been making for years that has bled the sub numbers from 10M+ to something so low they dare not even share them anymore and implemented a cash shop to make up for it in shareholder meetings. I'm not saying, I'm just sayin.



    For starters, cool, 2 users ignored in one thread. Second, how dare you assume that person's gender. Third, look at their signature, they clearly have an axe to grind against classic. That's why I said what I said. I'm glad these opinions won't affect my personal enjoyment of the game in classic (mostly TBC when it hits). That's what I said, that's what I meant, and I won't take it back. You have to sub to retail to get classic, so we all have it, we all care about the direction of retail to a greater or lesser extent. If retail fails, it all fails.

    I'd love for the retail game to move back in the direction of agency--something Shadowlands appears to be doing to my shock and pleasure, but not quite there yet. Asking to prune hunter's mark is a step in the wrong direction, and something they'd probably do if the community asked them loud enough. Sadly.
    So argue against pruning hunters mark without the "I play classic!!!" snobbery.

    And who's gender did I assume? Seriously, that shit?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcardNS View Post
    I shouldn't have to push a button that increases my damage!!!!!!! /retail



    He's not "right," he's espousing an opinion that I strongly disagree with. That is the point of these forums, debating ideas. Simpleton game design? Insult aside, how is removing buttons over a decade not making things more simple?

    You are falling for the age old false equivalency between choice and agency. The same mistake Blizzard has been making for years that has bled the sub numbers from 10M+ to something so low they dare not even share them anymore and implemented a cash shop to make up for it in shareholder meetings. I'm not saying, I'm just sayin.



    For starters, cool, 2 users ignored in one thread. Second, how dare you assume that person's gender. Third, look at their signature, they clearly have an axe to grind against classic. That's why I said what I said. I'm glad these opinions won't affect my personal enjoyment of the game in classic (mostly TBC when it hits). That's what I said, that's what I meant, and I won't take it back.

    I'd love for the retail game to move back in the direction of agency--something Shadowlands appears to be doing to my shock and pleasure, but not quite there yet. Asking to prune hunter's mark is a step in the wrong direction, and something they'd probably do if the community asked them loud enough. Sadly.
    All of the abilities that were removed only made the Classic fans upset. Most people don't want an over-inflated spellbook. Things like Hunter's Mark being both an ability you have to click AND on the GCD is absolute garbage. It's just throwing buttons on the action bars. Once again, it's the illusion of choice. These spells are 100% not needed. Anyone who says those spells will somehow make the game better are just very easily distracted.

    If you want a bunch of buttons to click that mean next to nothing, keep playing Classic. But don't come into the forums acting like the removal of those abilities is good for the game. Because all they're doing is doing the equivilant of giving a baby a rings of keys to play with. It's simply being done to shut the Classic crowd up and maybe get them to play retail too. I personally think this is a really dumb move since, as your incredibly condescending posts have shown, the Classic crowd is exceptionally toxic. You think subs are bad now? They'll only get worse as people start leaving because assholes from the Classic crowd have started raiding the retail servers with their nonsense.

  7. #47
    Stood in the Fire wildcardNS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    All of the abilities that were removed only made the Classic fans upset. Most people don't want an over-inflated spellbook. Things like Hunter's Mark being both an ability you have to click AND on the GCD is absolute garbage. It's just throwing buttons on the action bars. Once again, it's the illusion of choice. These spells are 100% not needed. Anyone who says those spells will somehow make the game better are just very easily distracted.

    If you want a bunch of buttons to click that mean next to nothing, keep playing Classic. But don't come into the forums acting like the removal of those abilities is good for the game. Because all they're doing is doing the equivilant of giving a baby a rings of keys to play with. It's simply being done to shut the Classic crowd up and maybe get them to play retail too. I personally think this is a really dumb move since, as your incredibly condescending posts have shown, the Classic crowd is exceptionally toxic. You think subs are bad now? They'll only get worse as people start leaving because assholes from the Classic crowd have started raiding the retail servers with their nonsense.
    If you want to talk sub numbers, the sub numbers are on the side of player agency, which includes things like having to press a button that increases your DPS. Let's not pretend retail is devoid of toxicity when anonymity in queues is 90% of the gameplay. Want to know how to reduce perceived toxic encounters? Make sure your customers don't have to have any encounters.

    I will keep playing classic. I will level the skills, place the talents, press the buttons, all to get the maximum out of my character. I will enjoy doing so because each step is one more box checked to that optimum build. That progression, that achievement, feels meaningful to me.

    Thanks to Mipeo for pally's sig!

  8. #48
    I think you mean press the button once TBC rolls around. You know since a one macro rotation is the height of player agency after all.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcardNS View Post
    If you want to talk sub numbers, the sub numbers are on the side of player agency, which includes things like having to press a button that increases your DPS. Let's not pretend retail is devoid of toxicity when anonymity in queues is 90% of the gameplay. Want to know how to reduce perceived toxic encounters? Make sure your customers don't have to have any encounters.

    I will keep playing classic. I will level the skills, place the talents, press the buttons, all to get the maximum out of my character. I will enjoy doing so because each step is one more box checked to that optimum build. That progression, that achievement, feels meaningful to me.
    If that's the way you find meaning in a game then sure. Go for it. But stop pretending like it's the best way for the game to advance in the future. There's a reason it was removed. I, and many other players, disliked having massive skill trees that had meaningless points in them. You may feel good getting just a little .5% buff from a talent point every level, but for players like me? It's borderline insulting and exceptionally boring. It is, once again, the illusion of choice. Because even though you had all these buttons to press, there was still only ONE good build. Any deviation and you gimped yourself. That's not good game design at all.

    Sure, retail has its toxicity. Every online game does. But in my experiences and the experiences of other people who have spoken on the forums is that Vanilla, and by proxy Classic, has the most toxic community imaginable. And it's due to the lack of anonymity. A raid leader doesn't like you because you complained about them playing favorites when handing out gear? Be prepared for them and their cronies to make sure you never get a group again on the server. Kill the wrong person in WPVP? Get ready to never advance your character again in the open world as that person summons all their friends to spawn camp you.

  10. #50
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    "You guys deserve retail tbh."


    Great way to start off. Hunter's mark probably should come back but find some way to make it more useful or do something other then its original use.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    Ya'll don't macro it to /petattack?
    Who uses pet as MM

    - - - Updated - - -

    I like it, gives me more range and focus regen for leveling and WQ's - and a 5% damage boost on big targets - what's to complain about

  12. #52
    Stood in the Fire wildcardNS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    If that's the way you find meaning in a game then sure. Go for it. But stop pretending like it's the best way for the game to advance in the future. There's a reason it was removed.
    Who's pretending? I will not "stop pretending," it is my opinion and I stand by it. Feel free to stand by yours, but don't try to equate your opinion with "fact" and insinuate that my opinion is 'pretending'.

    You're *still* conflating agency with choice, and until you overcome that we won't be able to have a valid conversation. We're just talking past each other.

    Thanks to Mipeo for pally's sig!

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Who uses pet as MM

    - - - Updated - - -

    I like it, gives me more range and focus regen for leveling and WQ's - and a 5% damage boost on big targets - what's to complain about
    Everytime there is a target that you need to switch, from now on you must think, hmmm will I get x number of abilities on it before it dies or will it die before I can get any benefit whatsoever from the mark gcd or even a complete loss of dps?
    That's a pretty big complain for anyone that actually plays the game.

    *Hint the number of abilities/time is pretty big for it to be worth casting, and by also not casting it, it means hunters are doing 5% less dmg vs every other spec in the game, but at the same time casting it is a loss.
    Last edited by kek280; 2020-05-15 at 07:45 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcardNS View Post
    Who's pretending? I will not "stop pretending," it is my opinion and I stand by it. Feel free to stand by yours, but don't try to equate your opinion with "fact" and insinuate that my opinion is 'pretending'.

    You're *still* conflating agency with choice, and until you overcome that we won't be able to have a valid conversation. We're just talking past each other.
    Reducing the number of buttons you click doesn't damage player agency. There are still plenty of choices players can make. Players are still able to play the game how they want to play it. So saying that there's little in the way of player agency just because you don't have giant talent trees with loads of worthless skills to points in is exceptionally wrong.

  15. #55
    Herald of the Titans MrKnubbles's Avatar
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    Hunter's Mark increases damage taken by 5%, right? I wouldn't bother using it on anything but bosses and difficult elites.
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  16. #56
    Merely a Setback Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Reducing the number of buttons you click doesn't damage player agency. There are still plenty of choices players can make. Players are still able to play the game how they want to play it. So saying that there's little in the way of player agency just because you don't have giant talent trees with loads of worthless skills to points in is exceptionally wrong.
    Yeah, not that it's of any use trying to educate some people on this fact.

    I'll take player agency that matters over "pLaYeR AgEnCy" where I'm forced to take X amount of dead weight to maximize and get my character where I want it to be. Old talent trees represented such a system. So did Legion's Artifact weapons until we got them fully unlocked. It was still a better system though, even if it was flashback city for a while there. The improvement of talents comes from moving the system forward, not backwards.

    Although they might not bring my class to where I want it to be in SL, at least I know it won't be reduced back to weaving auto-shots.
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    Yeah, not that it's of any use trying to educate some people on this fact.

    I'll take player agency that matters over "pLaYeR AgEnCy" where I'm forced to take X amount of dead weight to maximize and get my character where I want it to be. Old talent trees represented such a system. So did Legion's Artifact weapons until we got them fully unlocked. It was still a better system though, even if it was flashback city for a while there. The improvement of talents comes from moving the system forward, not backwards.

    Although they might not bring my class to where I want it to be in SL, at least I know it won't be reduced back to weaving auto-shots.
    The old talent trees were a lot of "put points in this one skill for 5 levels until you get to the talent you actually want. Will it help your character? Nah probably not but hey! It's choices and player agency!" That's not player agency. It's an illusion. Is the current talent system perfect? No. Is it worlds better than the old way? Ohhhh absolutely.

  18. #58
    Warchief Beet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyze View Post
    I don't want it in Shadowlands. It's boring and using a gcd on it hurts my stomach everytime.
    I love it myself. I always thought it added flavor. I also miss the original version we had. I know they eventually added a glyph to retain that version though.

    I’ve been replaying a hunter in classic again for the first time and it’s been a blast. The hunter class used to have so many cool things about it and was one of the higher skill ceiling classes for pvp, it’s just an absolute joy. Shit my Hunter at level 30 in classic has double the bindings my hunter does in BFA which is kind of a shame.

    I think Hunters Mark is just one more bit of unique flavor. I wish we had more of it. I also wish we had more things to manage like we did in those days such as ammo though too but I know that isn’t coming back anytime soon.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    Good. I can feel your anger. ...and your journey towards the dark side will be complete.

    Let's remove what little RPG elements remain of the game. Let's make WoW completely generic with only a handful of buttons that do anything anymore. A few more rounds of these things and WoW can be transferred to mobile.

    /facepalm

    No but they could try and make it more interesting

  20. #60
    Warchief Beet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcardNS View Post
    If you want to talk sub numbers, the sub numbers are on the side of player agency, which includes things like having to press a button that increases your DPS. Let's not pretend retail is devoid of toxicity when anonymity in queues is 90% of the gameplay. Want to know how to reduce perceived toxic encounters? Make sure your customers don't have to have any encounters.

    I will keep playing classic. I will level the skills, place the talents, press the buttons, all to get the maximum out of my character. I will enjoy doing so because each step is one more box checked to that optimum build. That progression, that achievement, feels meaningful to me.
    I wouldn’t bother debating these people man. You’ll notice most MMO-C forum posters absolutely despise the old days of WoW. You can see they didn’t even play during them and they all came after Cataclysm or MoP. So to them those versions prior to MoP have nothing good at all. Luckily for us the sub numbers kind of proved the type of game the majority liked since numbers constantly rose more and more year after year until the game had changed far too much and it was time for the drop off the cliff. Blizzard are realizing now though that they need to start catering a little more towards us. Look what they recently said, how the Asian players love classic so much and that type of gameplay. That combined with how every company caters to China now means were likely to keep seeing the type of game we like come back over time.


    PS: Since I’ll be leaving after I post this as anytime I make a comment that is remotely positive about the older versions of WoW I get 20 negative responses let me just add one more thing. Don’t bother debating the hamster person. I’ve only ever put one person on ignore in my decade plus time on this website and it was that person for being... “special” if you catch my meaning. That person spends I think at the very least two hours every single day on here raging against classic. It seems to take it as an insult that people are playing classic so it spends all its time trying to bring everyone down into the muck.

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