Seriously, f**k Hunters Mark

[Srg56]

Obviously, I would like to see the dmg boost removed and baked in the others abilities. And we could keep the utilities on it for pvp and pve.

That is what I was pointed out, quite subtly.

I would apologize for not reading your reply carefully enough to grasp your effort to push the discussion in that direction, which we both agree on, if you had read the thread carefully enough to see that i agreed with this same suggestion two pages ago:

This is actually a very good idea because it takes away the OCD some people have of always being optimal when doing anything in the game.



The ability's main purpose is to literally tag players you choose so you know where they are at all times, even if they turn invisible or go into stealth. It even shows them on your mini map. As much as i like interesting abilities which chain into others like combos in fighting games, some should just be simple but effective.

[Schizoide]

You don´t even have to use it, make a macro..

If you don't use it you give up a whopping 5% damage. It's on the GCD so it can't be macroed in transparently.

[Eapoe]

Had to bring this thread back up since Blizzard just decided to nerf it a bit by adding a 20 second CD on it, with a reset if the target dies. Definitely going to make priority target swapping have to be a little more planned out, if you look at fights like Drest.
Not a huge upset to the usage, but definitely means players will have to think a little ahead of the curve to make proper usage of it.
Just a for instance, on Nzoth, you wold have to use HM on the specific synapse you are going to kill to make sure you get full damage on them while getting a reset on a kill. Otherwise, you use it on Psychus and lose the damage on synapse. If you accidentally mark a small add or the wrong synapse then you screw yourself for 20 seconds or until the add dies. If you Mark N’zoth and then adds need to die to avoid another cast then you have to do without the added damage on the add.
Bear in mind, I’m using these scenarios as examples of future fights, not using them specifically as this current point in time where people highly outgear the fights and we don’t really have to worry about these things. I’m discussing fights with this design in place during progression.

[Puupi]

Had to bring this thread back up since Blizzard just decided to nerf it a bit by adding a 20 second CD on it, with a reset if the target dies. Definitely going to make priority target swapping have to be a little more planned out, if you look at fights like Drest.
Not a huge upset to the usage, but definitely means players will have to think a little ahead of the curve to make proper usage of it.
Just a for instance, on Nzoth, you wold have to use HM on the specific synapse you are going to kill to make sure you get full damage on them while getting a reset on a kill. Otherwise, you use it on Psychus and lose the damage on synapse. If you accidentally mark a small add or the wrong synapse then you screw yourself for 20 seconds or until the add dies. If you Mark N’zoth and then adds need to die to avoid another cast then you have to do without the added damage on the add.
Bear in mind, I’m using these scenarios as examples of future fights, not using them specifically as this current point in time where people highly outgear the fights and we don’t really have to worry about these things. I’m discussing fights with this design in place during progression.

A quick rule of thumb is that if it takes less than 20 seconds to kill the target, applying Hunter's Mark is a dps loss.

Hunter's Mark is a 5% buff for one GCD. 20 seconds has 15-20 GCD's depending on your haste. 1/20 = 5%. Not all GCD's are obviously equal, but this is napkin math.

So, obviously you shouldn't be applying Hunter's Mark on synapses regardless of whether there is a cooldown on the ability or not. Except if you have free GCD's.

[Eapoe]

A quick rule of thumb is that if it takes less than 20 seconds to kill the target, applying Hunter's Mark is a dps loss.

Hunter's Mark is a 5% buff for one GCD. 20 seconds has 15-20 GCD's depending on your haste. 1/20 = 5%. Not all GCD's are obviously equal, but this is napkin math.

So, obviously you shouldn't be applying Hunter's Mark on synapses regardless of whether there is a cooldown on the ability or not. Except if you have free GCD's.

But as stated, if you mark a target, such as N’zoth, and then need to hard swap to the adds then you lost 20 seconds of increased damage on the priority target. I also brought up if you mark the wrong target thru tab targeting instead of having a macro (for example, some people don’t have target macro for Basher tentacles). Marking a Warrior in a BG just to have the Rogue show up and not being able to mark them before a Vanish.
You lose the ability to target swap in some situations.

[Kaver]

A quick rule of thumb is that if it takes less than 20 seconds to kill the target, applying Hunter's Mark is a dps loss.

Hunter's Mark is a 5% buff for one GCD. 20 seconds has 15-20 GCD's depending on your haste. 1/20 = 5%. Not all GCD's are obviously equal, but this is napkin math.

So, obviously you shouldn't be applying Hunter's Mark on synapses regardless of whether there is a cooldown on the ability or not. Except if you have free GCD's.

The GCD you’ll lose will be a cobra shot since the other abilities have CDs or Buffs.

You’ll gain 5% extra damage on your dots, kill commands and kill shots which can be a lot of extra damage and worth wasting one cobra shot for.

[Clash the DK]

The GCD you’ll lose will be a cobra shot since the other abilities have CDs or Buffs.

You’ll gain 5% extra damage on your dots, kill commands and kill shots which can be a lot of extra damage and worth wasting one cobra shot for.

Not to get into semantics, but you could still be delaying damage (KC, KS, etc.) to start, depending on the situation.

Personally, I'm against Hunter's Mark being added back baseline in this fashion.
Counting the covenant stuff along with KS, that's at least 4 active abilities added to my bars. I didn't sign up for all of that.

[bloodmoth13]

Agreed. I know most will just say, "it's just one button and you only have to hit it once", but it just seems like a needless necessity. An extra button to press with little interactivity with it's most major benefit mostly being for PVP for stealth tracking.

'its just one button' is an argument against it if anything.

There is a reason certain abilities were pruned and i have a gut feeling that this expansion is going to be a big reminder of why. I havent seen any abilities coming back that im excited to see other than some of the goofy fun abilities (sentry totem, eyes of the beast and mind soothe since none of them actually affect performance)

We dont need zombie abilities, if they are going to bring it back from the dead they cant leave it in its rotted and decayed state, they need to update it and modernize it.
There are ways the hunters mark effect can work and feel good, and ways that just suck, they just need to make it not suck.

[Sinaa]

'its just one button' is an argument against it if anything.

There is a reason certain abilities were pruned and i have a gut feeling that this expansion is going to be a big reminder of why. I havent seen any abilities coming back that im excited to see other than some of the goofy fun abilities (sentry totem, eyes of the beast and mind soothe since none of them actually affect performance)

We dont need zombie abilities, if they are going to bring it back from the dead they cant leave it in its rotted and decayed state, they need to update it and modernize it.
There are ways the hunters mark effect can work and feel good, and ways that just suck, they just need to make it not suck.

I missed Mind Soothe & it's back! Call it goofy all you want, but I always loved that spell..

[Sondrelk]

The biggest problem with HM is that it is such a non-presence in the rotation. You use it only when you switch targets, awkwardly having to waste a GCD to do so.
The ability could be chagned ot give a more immediate effect to make it feel better. Now that it has a cooldown it would be even more fitting. Just as an example the ability could be:

Hunter's Mark:
Mark a target, allowing oyu to see them through invisibility and increases damage you deal to them by 5%. Also increases the range at which you can attack this add by an additional 10%.
When you use this ability you immediately gain 20 focus and 10% extra damage on (X main ability). When the target dies gain 5% haste and reset the cooldown on this ability.

This way the ability would feel good to use in the rotation. It wouldnt do much, but it would create at least a modicum on interplay. As it currently exists it is just busywork.

[bloodmoth13]

I missed Mind Soothe & it's back! Call it goofy all you want, but I always loved that spell..

I remember skipping packs in that blackrock dungeon in cata, and generally just trying to help the dungeon out with it. Helped with sneaking past some enemies in open world. Its a fun ability that can exist or not without affecting priest performance, those abilities are perfectly fine and shouldnt have been removed since they were literally nothing but flavor, hunters mark though is performance and needs work done because if it affects performance, its mandatory.

[Jamais]

Had to bring this thread back up since Blizzard just decided to nerf it a bit by adding a 20 second CD on it, with a reset if the target dies. Definitely going to make priority target swapping have to be a little more planned out, if you look at fights like Drest.
Not a huge upset to the usage, but definitely means players will have to think a little ahead of the curve to make proper usage of it.
Just a for instance, on Nzoth, you wold have to use HM on the specific synapse you are going to kill to make sure you get full damage on them while getting a reset on a kill. Otherwise, you use it on Psychus and lose the damage on synapse. If you accidentally mark a small add or the wrong synapse then you screw yourself for 20 seconds or until the add dies. If you Mark N’zoth and then adds need to die to avoid another cast then you have to do without the added damage on the add.
Bear in mind, I’m using these scenarios as examples of future fights, not using them specifically as this current point in time where people highly outgear the fights and we don’t really have to worry about these things. I’m discussing fights with this design in place during progression.

Lol if you were using HM on synapses - you were doing it wrong....lmao those things live for like 4-5 seconds, and if some tank's TD proccs, it can outright fall in 1.5 seconds.


HM on single target - never have to recast it

HM on AoE - cast it on the biggest hp add, or the biggest priority and cleave off of him.


I believe this is the intended way of using HM. I think people are mistaken - our single target is balanced around HM uptime, AoE is not.

[Kaver]

The biggest problem with HM is that it is such a non-presence in the rotation. You use it only when you switch targets, awkwardly having to waste a GCD to do so.

Have you actually tried playing with it on the beta? It's completely fine. We have a lot of free GCDs in our AOE rotation so using HM when switching targets is pretty smooth. I think people should try to play with it before they complain, because although it is not the most exciting ability in the world, it is completely fine.

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I think people are mistaken - our single target is balanced around HM uptime, AoE is not.

Exactly. The tuning of beast cleave (for example) will be the same no matter if HM is in the game or not. If people think they are going to reduce the damage of beast cleave to compensate for HM they are wrong.

[Eapoe]

Lol if you were using HM on synapses - you were doing it wrong....lmao those things live for like 4-5 seconds, and if some tank's TD proccs, it can outright fall in 1.5 seconds.


HM on single target - never have to recast it

HM on AoE - cast it on the biggest hp add, or the biggest priority and cleave off of him.


I believe this is the intended way of using HM. I think people are mistaken - our single target is balanced around HM uptime, AoE is not.

Do people even read and try to comprehend a post before responding? Yes, I was completely using an ability that doesn’t exist outside of MM on Synapses. It was an example of future fights and does not apply to current progression, which I clearly stated.

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Have you actually tried playing with it on the beta? It's completely fine. We have a lot of free GCDs in our AOE rotation so using HM when switching targets is pretty smooth. I think people should try to play with it before they complain, because although it is not the most exciting ability in the world, it is completely fine.

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Exactly. The tuning of beast cleave (for example) will be the same no matter if HM is in the game or not. If people think they are going to reduce the damage of beast cleave to compensate for HM they are wrong.

It is reduced. The fact that HM grants 5% increased damage directly shows that. HM let’s the Hunter do 100% available damage in the toolkit. If you don’t use it in every available situation you are nerfing your own damage.

[Kaver]

It is reduced. The fact that HM grants 5% increased damage directly shows that. HM let’s the Hunter do 100% available damage in the toolkit. If you don’t use it in every available situation you are nerfing your own damage.

I understand that. But HM only affects a single target so Blizzard have not tuned AOE based on HM. You can see that in the beta. And isn't that what matters in the end? If Hunter still does very competitive damage in AOE then everything is fine.

I personally think you are overreacting with this. I have played with HM on the beta and it feel completely fine. It's pretty smooth to use in dungeons since we have a lot of free GCDs in our AOE rotation and Hunter does really good damage. So there isn't really anything to worry about. It's not so important how it looks on the paper if it feels fine in practice.

[Jamais]

Ok, the point still stands - you wouldn't have, and MM should not use HM on synapse adds, because it would be a dps loss - the time it takes them to die, you would pump more dmg with just your abilities, much more then 5% dmg buff would compensate for.

I remained unconvinced that our AoE is balanced around HM for the same reason - i think HM prioritizing on trash pack adds is a 5% bonus, not ''taken for granted''. And you will be able to spare a couple of globals, from pack to pack, to mark the new target. It will also come in handy when you learn the mechanics of a dungeon, so after you memorize which adds are especially dangerous, you can mark them - i think that is really cool actually.

I can't understand people who are panicking over having to recast it every 20 seconds. The latest change did make the spell more annoying tho, now you will get punished if you mark the target by mistake, but the fundamentals are still the same.

I don't think it is an exciting ability, but successfully prioritizing it would set you apart from fellow hunters who are less adept at switching it around. It may annoy you, but it is a gameplay element that needs maintenance, and adds at least some depth.

p.s. Instead of HM, if you have beta and or access to beta forums, post your feedback about the focus problems all hunter specs have. MM would be a really good, complete spec if they revert some of the focus nerfs (most notably, just make Precise shots reduce the focus cost of buffed abilites). Blizzard obviously wants to make resource management a bigger part of hunter gameplay, and that is fine, but there is middleground which needs to be found right now.

[Sondrelk]

Have you actually tried playing with it on the beta? It's completely fine. We have a lot of free GCDs in our AOE rotation so using HM when switching targets is pretty smooth. I think people should try to play with it before they complain, because although it is not the most exciting ability in the world, it is completely fine.

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Exactly. The tuning of beast cleave (for example) will be the same no matter if HM is in the game or not. If people think they are going to reduce the damage of beast cleave to compensate for HM they are wrong.

I play MM, I have used it the entirety of BfA where I could just about tolerate it fine then, but in Shadowlands where the pile of random abilities have become even bigger I don't think I am being unreasonable when I say I really don't want to have Hunter's Mark clog up my action bar.

[Kaver]

Ok, the point still stands - you wouldn't have, and MM should not use HM on synapse adds, because it would be a dps loss - the time it takes them to die, you would pump more dmg with just your abilities, much more then 5% dmg buff would compensate for.

I remained unconvinced that our AoE is balanced around HM for the same reason - i think HM prioritizing on trash pack adds is a 5% bonus, not ''taken for granted''. And you will be able to spare a couple of globals, from pack to pack, to mark the new target. It will also come in handy when you learn the mechanics of a dungeon, so after you memorize which adds are especially dangerous, you can mark them - i think that is really cool actually.

I can't understand people who are panicking over having to recast it every 20 seconds. The latest change did make the spell more annoying tho, now you will get punished if you mark the target by mistake, but the fundamentals are still the same.

I don't think it is an exciting ability, but successfully prioritizing it would set you apart from fellow hunters who are less adept at switching it around. It may annoy you, but it is a gameplay element that needs maintenance, and adds at least some depth.

p.s. Instead of HM, if you have beta and or access to beta forums, post your feedback about the focus problems all hunter specs have. MM would be a really good, complete spec if they revert some of the focus nerfs (most notably, just make Precise shots reduce the focus cost of buffed abilites). Blizzard obviously wants to make resource management a bigger part of hunter gameplay, and that is fine, but there is middleground which needs to be found right now.

There is absolutely nothing to worry about. On the beta hunters do very good AOE damage no matter what. We don't even need to use HM on AOE packs as it wont affect the overall AOE damage much. We do great AOE damage no matter what. On single target you will of course lose out a lot if you don't use HM but in AOE scenarios it wont have much impact on the overall total AOE damage. We are in a great spot for both dungeons and raids. No need to worry.

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I don't think I am being unreasonable when I say I really don't want to have Hunter's Mark clog up my action bar.

Personally I think you are. It plays perfectly fine on the beta for both MM and BM. It doesn't clog anything up in my opinion. We have plenty of free GCDs in our AOE rotation to use it, and even if we don't use it in an AOE scenario we still do very competitive damage. In practice everything works out fine.

[Jamais]

There is absolutely nothing to worry about. On the beta hunters do very good AOE damage no matter what. We don't even need to use HM on AOE packs as it wont affect the overall AOE damage much. We do great AOE damage no matter what. On single target you will of course lose out a lot if you don't use HM but in AOE scenarios it wont have much impact on the overall total AOE damage. We are in a great spot for both dungeons and raids. No need to worry.

It will take more than that to convince the majority of posters here.

The dmg is still to be tuned - but the AoE cap change was the biggest ''buff'' to MM, since our AoE toolkit is best at 3-5 targets. In BfA, even with AoE uncapped, i was doing really sick burst on trash packs.

In SL, many things augment our AoE - some talents, honorable mention to Volley, legendaries need some fixing, but non of them are single target oriented imho. If you want to excel at AoE, you can.

However, no matter our dmg, we should see the focus problems solved - currently it is just weird, you are supposed to ignore our Precise Shots proc due to focus starvation, otherwise you would cap on charges and Trueshot feels like a half cooldown. Some of this has to do with secondary stat reduction, but that is something all players should have grown accustomed by now.

Hunters have received a lot of good stuff via unpruning, but if you are focused entirely on pew pew, you obviously can't appreciate it. Soothe Beast, while situational, has already proven useful in my dungeon testing. Tranq Shot is truly a big buff to utility for MM, not needing a pet to dispel magic/purge enrage, together with Binding Shot baseline - it truly makes a difference being able to have both BS and Posthaste (even tho the latter should probably be baseline aswel).

[Kaver]

It will take more than that to convince the majority of posters here.

The dmg is still to be tuned - but the AoE cap change was the biggest ''buff'' to MM, since our AoE toolkit is best at 3-5 targets. In BfA, even with AoE uncapped, i was doing really sick burst on trash packs.

In SL, many things augment our AoE - some talents, honorable mention to Volley, legendaries need some fixing, but non of them are single target oriented imho. If you won't to excel at AoE, you can.

However, no matter our dmg, we should see the focus problems solved - currently it is just weird, you are supposed to ignore our Precise Shots proc due to focus starvation, otherwise you would cap on charges and Trueshot feels like a half cooldown. Some of this has to do with secondary stat reduction, but that is something all players should have grown accustomed by now.

Hunters have received a lot of good stuff via unpruning, but if you are focused entirely on pew pew, you obviously can't appreciate it. Soothe Beast, while situational, has already proven useful in my dungeon testing. Tranq Shot is truly a big biff to utility for MM, not needing a pet to dispell magic/purge enrage, together with Binding Shot baseline - it truly makes a difference being able to have both BS and Posthaste (even tho the latter should probably be baseline aswell).

I think a lot of hunters will change their minds when they actually try it in SL and realize that they were overreacting. Hunter (especially BM) is in general a very free class so anything that puts the smallest restriction on our gameplay will typically be perceived as an outrage. HM puts a little bit of restriction on our target switching but it looks much worse on the paper than it actually plays like in practice. And a lot of other classes have abilities that functions similar to HM or have other limitations to their target switching. It's a completely normal thing in WoW.