View Poll Results: Who lost its soul?

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  • Veteran Players

    63 20.39%
  • Game

    94 30.42%
  • Both

    127 41.10%
  • Other

    25 8.09%
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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    Ah, so it doesn't exist and you admit you are merely making things up?
    Begone, troll. I’ve already pointed out how classic has more people raiding and the evidence but until you hear ion say it you’ll keep playing intentionally oblivious.

    Go ahead and believe whatever you want but I’m done with this juvenile debate. Only so many times I can win the same debate

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Begone, troll. I’ve already pointed out how classic has more people raiding and the evidence but until you hear ion say it you’ll keep playing intentionally oblivious.

    Go ahead and believe whatever you want but I’m done with this juvenile debate. Only so many times I can win the same debate
    It's pretty interesting how someone can get this upset just because I asked for a source.
    Surely classic is now in better shape when you made classic players look a bit less intelligent by making claims you completely fail to back up.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    It's pretty interesting how someone can get this upset just because I asked for a source.
    Surely classic is now in better shape when you made classic players look a bit less intelligent by making claims you completely fail to back up.
    You have trouble reading or counting? WARcraft logs and count the total players. You’re welcome

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    You have trouble reading or counting? WARcraft logs and count the total players. You’re welcome
    No, I am asking what points that majority of retail players have done normal, like you claimed.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    No, I am asking what points that majority of retail players have done normal, like you claimed.
    Moving the goal posts. Got it. We both know the majority does normal or above

    Go ahead and compare the total players who do Mc and bwl with nyalotha

    Or is that such a bad disparity that you had to rely on the fantasy that lfr is a large segment of the game

    I won. You lost. Deal with it

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    We both know the majority does normal or above
    How do we know?

    We don't even know the number of players, so knowing what amount of them have cleared a raid is impossible.
    Unless there's a widget you found on warcraft logs that I cannot find.
    But surely you can guide me to the chart that shows the percentage of players that have cleared normal, assuming it exists, right?

  7. #247
    Mechagnome Venteus's Avatar
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    Yikes, watching that kid jump through 10+ hoops to arrive at the conclusion that classic has more raiders has been exhausting. Player numbers aren't out, breathe and come to terms with it.
    Kil'Jaeden - US

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  8. #248
    All warcraft logs can do is show the minimum amount of players who raid... Not every raid is logged.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2020-05-18 at 02:50 PM.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    You mean back when you had to run dungeons multiple times for pre-raid bis, reputation or materials?
    Yes, that’s exactly that, before they turned into a fully scaled grinding mode ala greater rift.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Yes, and you didn't need "pre raid bis" to clear shit first tier content.

    And guess what, even if you did farm pre raid bis, once the pre-raid "event" passed, dungeons did nothing.
    I like all of the content in the expansion to be relevant.
    For 10 years the game had clear progression paths, you could be done progression-wise with a game mode. Nowadays this isn’t the case anymore and I don’t understand why you should be rewarded for doing the same bunch of world quests for the 36375327863th time or clearing 5 scaled low level dungeons when you’re decked in normal or heroic gear. You don’t level up to 120 by killing level 5 boars outside Org. That’s good if you like even the most boring and unchallenging content to be relevant and rewarding but I don’t and that’s exactly when they made it this way that this game lost his soul to me.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The reward is to reveal the story.

    I would be fine with having to explore to find the way. Most are not. Blizzard caved on that.

    That's your opinion. Quest texts reveal story details if not starting the thread for other stories.

    To tell the stories they want to tell.

    Quests are integral to RPG's mostly as a form of story generation and progression.

    I'm not saying that Blizzard could not do better. They could and they should. The fact remains that as along as dungeons, raids and PVP are more important in the game than telling stories it's likely they won't change much and Blizzard will miss out on a lot of potential customers that might "sit and stay a while" otherwise.
    Im just saying i dont understand the concept of designing 500 quests every expansion as chores and not as a platform for immersion purposes.

    Well...i dont actually know if quests are interesting, because i never read them...
    But how many quests are "interesting" out of 500 in your expertise?

  11. #251
    I get the impression that (Blizzard feels) a lot of the WoD sub losses had to with the overall lack of content in the game. You could absolutely be a higher end mythic raider and only log on for raids and a few minutes of garrison chores, and there wasn't a whole lot else to do if you're weren't a collector. You could even raid on multiple alts with minimal time invested. People got bored, and people quit.

    It was after that they got into the player-hours as a metric of game success and went the completely opposite direction. BFA had other problems, but I hope they dial back on the grind a bit. Now you're losing players to burnout in addition to everything else.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by crazyman2 View Post
    I get the impression that (Blizzard feels) a lot of the WoD sub losses had to with the overall lack of content in the game. You could absolutely be a higher end mythic raider and only log on for raids and a few minutes of garrison chores, and there wasn't a whole lot else to do if you're weren't a collector. You could even raid on multiple alts with minimal time invested. People got bored, and people quit.

    It was after that they got into the player-hours as a metric of game success and went the completely opposite direction. BFA had other problems, but I hope they dial back on the grind a bit. Now you're losing players to burnout in addition to everything else.
    I think the MAUs as a metric for successful game design really started in Legion personally. I do agree Legion was a knee jerk reaction to "lack of content" complaints in WOD. Legion, I believe, had a ton of great content. However, just like BFA I stopped playing it shortly after launch. The reason I stopped is because in addition to adding some very good "actual content", they also introduced a lot of what I like to call "repetitive systems as a stand in for actual content". Worse, from my perspective, is that any remotely serious raider knew these grinds were absolutely not optional. Add the most casino inspired distribution system I have ever seen in any game used to distribute the most powerful items that could be acquired and all the good work the designers put into the "actual content" was completely overshadowed by my hate for these new systems. Systems that make you repeat content are not content in and of themselves and are generally not very enjoyable for the player base, in my opinion.

  13. #253
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceMan1763 View Post
    I think the MAUs as a metric for successful game design really started in Legion personally.
    MAU's are completely pointless for game design. If you log in once for...20 seconds....in some calendar month. That counts as 1 MAU.

    If you log in 65 times in a calendar month and play for hours every day: That also counts as 1 MAU.

    So the idea that grindy game design is some indication of player approval is bullshit. Monthly active users is just that: a count of how many accounts that accessed the game in a month.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  14. #254
    Both. But the game degraded first.

  15. #255
    The Lightbringer Lazuli's Avatar
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    The devs sold out to appeal to the "majority" of casuals who have no intention of remaining loyal customer but some quick insta gratification.

    That backfired, now we may see the soul return. It is definitely not the players who lost anything other than a game they once loved, in the end we're just gamers looking for something fun to fuck around in. Can't do that in a boring treadmill of endless bullshit. Players are jaded for good reason and should never be blamed for devs being at fault.
    LOL

    ♫Toss a coin to your witcher♫

    I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    I think we may be waiting a long time for that to happen. Maybe even forever.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Mush View Post
    Huh? Words have meaning you know, right?

    I perfectly know the definitions of "veteran". And again, people calling themselves veterans in a game are the lost one.

  17. #257
    Master of the Void The Dark One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    MAU's are completely pointless for game design. If you log in once for...20 seconds....in some calendar month. That counts as 1 MAU.

    If you log in 65 times in a calendar month and play for hours every day: That also counts as 1 MAU.

    So the idea that grindy game design is some indication of player approval is bullshit. Monthly active users is just that: a count of how many accounts that accessed the game in a month.
    I wonder how many times you have to repeat this until people understand.

    I bet you have this response in a notepad somewhere to copy/paste by now, I've definitely seen it before. :P
    Fundamental civil rights are only "political" if you're trying to take them away from people.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Ive been recently playing other games from different genres and i realized something.
    I feel a weird sense on numbness when i play WoW.
    And with other games i play i feel a crapton more engaged and immersed.

    This is probably because ive played WoW for 1000's of hours and my mind is trained to play the game a certain way.
    Like a war veteran on the battlefield or something. Completely numb to the danger and without "sense of wonder".

    Do you think this is 100% my fault and im already brainwashed in some way?
    or
    Is the game also at fault a little bit? Did developers also lost their soul a little bit?

    Do you still feel a sense of wonder when playing wow in this day and age of "information overload" and "google"?
    Honestly I thought it was a "me" thing, but Classic WoW has kinda shown me that it isn't.

    I have to say that it really does feel like the game has lost its soul. I think the biggest change was that the world became less of a world and more of a themepark as time went on. Asmongold made a comment in some video a while ago about how every single nook and cranny is designed to be used for something inside of the modern expansions, and I have to agree. It feel like if they make a mountain village then that mountain village is tied to quests, and to dailies, and to the raid, and nothing is just... THERE. It's all meticulously planned out so that every little cave has a purpose. I also feel like there's less and less time to explore because of all of these like.. incentives to play the game. If I don't complete this emissary in 3 days it goes away. If I don't finish this world quest then I've lost some additional reputation that others players could have gotten. If I don't do every single world quest every single day in both assaults then I'm a few days behind other players... like... There's no time to breathe in retail anymore. I feel like I can log in to Classic and can go DO things without feeling like I'm missing out on something else. Whatever else I could be doing in Classic will still be there once I'm done adventuring further into some spooky cave.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    MAU's are completely pointless for game design. If you log in once for...20 seconds....in some calendar month. That counts as 1 MAU.

    If you log in 65 times in a calendar month and play for hours every day: That also counts as 1 MAU.

    So the idea that grindy game design is some indication of player approval is bullshit. Monthly active users is just that: a count of how many accounts that accessed the game in a month.
    If we got one dollar each Moana for everytime someone misused the term MAU we would be drunk together on an island we bought for that money.
    - I will never be the Legion's pawn. And this tower will not be its den!

    Best Mage ever lived!

  20. #260
    For me: the game doesn’t try to engage me anymore, it tries to keep me busy.

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