No Bards in Lore?

[willtron]

... That is the dumbest thing I've read this week. Congratulations.

Damn dude, facetiousness aside that's cutting coming from the guy that came up with a Bard suggestion.

[Newname1234567890]

Dude. Stop trying to be condescending. It only makes yourself look bad.

A simple search on WoWHead for the word "song" shows you a lot of song abilities. And I know what I know because the subject interests me, so naturally I looked this stuff up.

The issue is that you're trying to twist facts to fit your agenda, by trying to "de-canonize" Russell Brower, for example. You're like this guy who was never interested in dinosaurs whatsoever, trying to act like you know more than someone who is genuinely interested in dinosaurs and reads about them often.


No, it's not. It's called "proof of concept" and it shows that bards as a spellcaster concept exist in Warcraft.


... That is the dumbest thing I've read this week. Congratulations.

I guess priests, warlocks, mages, monks, druids, paladins and death knights are all shamans, too, by that ███████ logic, since they all use words to shape their spells, since "words are sounds, and sounds is air pressure and vibrations, air is shamans, therefore all those classes are shamans".

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Oh, I know that. I'm not saying that Chen did not exist in the lore. I fully know he does, and never claimed he's not.

I'm just saying he's nowhere near this "big player" in the lore like Teriz claims he is, just because he helped found Orgrimmar. Because, like I mentioned, Chen was a very obscure lore character, up until MoP. Orgrimmar itself has not a single mention of him.

Ah fair enough, shame he didn't get more of a look in by the Horde

[Ielenia]

Ah fair enough, shame he didn't get more of a look in by the Horde

Because the pandaren weren't a playable race from the get-go. I believe the pandaren should've very well been a Horde race instead of the Forsaken from the beginning, and leave the undead as a pure antagonist entity, maybe with neutral groups.

To be honest, and as an aside, I think that's the reason we have gnomes in the Alliance: Blizzard needed to fill in the '4th Alliance race spot' after Blizzard made Garithos kick the blood elves out back in WC3, and the gnomes were all we had.

[Amarys]

But they do exist. Music-based magic exist in Azeroth, bard-like characters exist in Azeroth, and bards exist in Azeroth:

Russell Brower: "Words and Music by Russell Brower the Bard and <name> the <Class>."

Again that's just a singer as in a dude who sings songs. The bard as a class is something different and they're more like agents, spies, rogues etc. who also inspire their group with songs. WoW lore does not have that and all those "bards" and other singers are just entertainers. Like I said before.. you can just as well ask for a cook class, there are way more of those and some of them actually fight and have food based abilities.

[Darththeo]

Again that's just a singer as in a dude who sings songs. The bard as a class is something different and they're more like agents, spies, rogues etc. who also inspire their group with songs. WoW lore does not have that and all those "bards" and other singers are just entertainers. Like I said before.. you can just as well ask for a cook class, there are way more of those and some of them actually fight and have food based abilities.

The individual in question uses songs to attack.

[Ielenia]

Again that's just a singer as in a dude who sings songs.

By that dishonestly simplified description logic, a priest is just a 'dude who prays'. And I'll repeat, once again, that Russel Brower helps you fight the Old God beast during the Wildhammer wedding, and helps you fight the Firelands' invasion in Mt Hyjal, using his songs to cast frost spells.

The bard as a class is something different and they're more like agents, spies, rogues etc. who also inspire their group with songs.

Yeah. With their musical spells.

WoW lore does not have that and all those "bards" and other singers are just entertainers.

They do have that. Even back in WC3, the "kodo beast" is a "type of bard."

Like I said before.. you can just as well ask for a cook class, there are way more of those and some of them actually fight and have food based abilities.

Except "bard" is a common RPG trope class, along with mages, paladins and rogues.

[SeniorJoker]

Let's be realistic. Bards can't dmg with music or singing. Warcraft movie could be crazy soap opera movie with such things.

[bloodmoth13]

I never claimed that music was any element, but as we've established with priests and paladins there are ways to wield the same element, but differently enough to warrant two different classes, a bard would be that, a "mage" essentially but with an entirely different toolkit, spells, passives, talents, class fantasy, though still operating within for instance arcane or holy magic.

Saying something has never been a thing means nothing, the Shadowlands weren't a thing until they were, Draenei spaceships weren't either. Everything is introduced at some point.

If you want to make the argument that classes previously have been based on what's already in the game I would agree woth you, but maintain that they don't need to, and would posit that only the Brewmaster Monk spec was based on something that already existed, the rest of it was new and hadn't EVER existed in WoW before.

You bring up paladins and priests, great! You see, paladins and priests access the same magic, that isnt the issue, its the output that matters. Paladins use light magic to augment their physical capabilities while holy priests evoke it. Their gameplay roles are also completely different, one being melee and tanky and the other ranged and squishy. What would a bard do? The exact same things as a mage would but with a different input? Not enough.
For the paladin/priest comparison, id actually love to see a mageknight spec or a spellblade spec in this game, that would be sweet and wouldn't retread worn ground due to not competing in the same role and thematics.

Now, im not entirely opposed to a bard being added, i just havent seen any convincing arguments in their favour.

[Sagenod]

Great attitude, I'm gonna go with "bards are the most idiotic thing I've ever heard of as a class concept" and move on from that.

Tinkers already exist and would fill a hole missing in this game (game heavily revolves around steam-based technology with no classes supporting it), bards are 'lol I play music', no thanks.

I wasn't gonna bash bards but since you're going to troll about tinkers without anyone even bringing it up, there you go.

(Don't worry though, most likely Blizzard isn't going to add any new classes, because that would require effort and Blizzard hates effort these days.)

You're speaking from a thematic standpoint. But what about gameplay? What archetype does Tinker fulfill that the game is currently lacking that the Bard couldn't fill to the same effectiveness? Again, talking about gameplay and not theme.

[Salvager23]

You're speaking from a thematic standpoint. But what about gameplay? What archetype does Tinker fulfill the game is currently missing that the Bard couldn't fill to the same effectiveness? Again, talking about gameplay and not theme.

I'm thinking Physical RDPS, "Ranged" Tanking (melee range with guns and lasers), Mana Free healing.

[Sagenod]

You bring up paladins and priests, great! You see, paladins and priests access the same magic, that isnt the issue, its the output that matters. Paladins use light magic to augment their physical capabilities while holy priests evoke it. Their gameplay roles are also completely different, one being melee and tanky and the other ranged and squishy. What would a bard do? The exact same things as a mage would but with a different input? Not enough.
For the paladin/priest comparison, id actually love to see a mageknight spec or a spellblade spec in this game, that would be sweet and wouldn't retread worn ground due to not competing in the same role and thematics.

Now, im not entirely opposed to a bard being added, i just havent seen any convincing arguments in their favour.

How do you explain Holy Priest vs Holy Paladin? Both are quite similar in purpose and aesthetic but quite different in practice. Gameplay mechanics are not defined by design themes. I'm sure if you access your creative side you could imagine how a Bard would differ significantly in both gameplay and aesthetic from everything else in game. It would be nothing like the Mage, no offense but it's strange that that was your example. A Bard would likely function most similarly to the Shaman, which is a class already known for its support capabilities, the bread and butter of the Bard. But that doesn't mean there is no real estate for the Bard to occupy! Being a standalone class is unlikely as nobody is asking for another leather wearer. But as a fourth spec, a class skin or another system in game? Hell yeah. Bards could definitely work. Again, just requires a little creativity.

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I'm thinking Physical RDPS, "Ranged" Tanking (melee range with guns and lasers), Mana Free healing.

Physical ranged DPS as in ranged weapon users (bows, crossbows, guns) correct? That's fine, it's definitely something that we could stand to see more of in WoW since only one class uses them. But the Bard can use ranged weapons too, friend! Sure it's be unoriginal to implement in WoW (not that that has ever been a particular issue to begin with, WoW is overall not very original I think we can all agree) BUT the Bard from FFXIV wields a bow. And it makes more sense than melee DPS from a gameplay perspective regarding the Bard since the class, both DPS and heals, would have a focus on support abilities.

Your ranged tanking example is thematic, not gameplay. "Its still melee range but using guns, lasers, etc." That doesn't matter to the numbers.

By mana free healing do you mean just mana or resource free healing in general? The former is already in the game and the latter would never happen and Tinkers wouldn't include it.

[FossilFree]

Hmm, other thread got locked for some reason. I'll repost on here...

Bards would be an awesome addition to the class lineup! I'd do something like this:

• Sonically-enhanced physical ranged class. Uses bows, crossbows, and guns and wears mail armor.

• Instruments are not equipped but are instead used in the spell effects like paladin librams are now.

• Different instrument glyphs are unlocked through achievements and rare loot all around the world, and they can be purchased from the bard class trainer after they are unlocked.

• Spell animations would use the sonic "multiple yellow rings" effect we see in the game already for sonic-based attacks (like the mantid use). Dirgists would have a shadowy color though.

Specs - Illusionist, Dirgist, Hymnist

• Illusionists would create temporary pets through magical songs that function similarly to the inscription blood summons from the tools of the trade blood quill (but actually strong).

• Dirgists would sing songs of lament and sadness, tormenting their foes with damage over time attacks and performance-reducing debuffs.

• Hymnists would help their allies through spiritual songs that uplift and inspire, doing healing over time and using performance-enhancing buffs on their allies.

[Sagenod]

Hmm, other thread got locked for some reason. I'll repost on here...

Bards would be an awesome addition to the class lineup! I'd do something like this:

• Sonically-enhanced physical ranged class. Uses bows, crossbows, and guns and wears mail armor.

• Instruments are not equipped but are instead used in the spell effects like paladin librams are now.

• Different instrument glyphs are unlocked through achievements and rare loot all around the world, and they can be purchased from the bard class trainer after they are unlocked.

• Spell animations would use the sonic "multiple yellow rings" effect we see in the game already for sonic-based attacks (like the mantid use). Dirgists would have a shadowy color though.

Specs - Illusionist, Dirgist, Hymnist

• Illusionists would create temporary pets through magical songs that function similarly to the inscription blood summons from the tools of the trade blood quill (but actually strong).

• Dirgists would sing songs of lament and sadness, tormenting their foes with damage over time attacks and performance-reducing debuffs.

• Hymnists would help their allies through spiritual songs that uplift and inspire, doing healing over time and using performance-enhancing buffs on their allies.

I like all of it!

Two things: It doesn't have to be ALL magic. Bards are artists, dancers, story-tellers. I would have that reflected in their abilities. Also, we both know they'll never be a mail-wearing class. Bards are leather wearers through and through.

[FossilFree]

I like all of it!

Two things: It doesn't have to be ALL magic. Bards are artists, dancers, story-tellers. I would have that reflected in their abilities. Also, we both know they'll never be a mail-wearing class. Bards are leather wearers through and through.

Thanks!

True, they could have a mix of magic and physical abilities. As for leather, I just figured we have too many leather classes and bards could be like a new petless spin on a ranger that uses music instead of nature magic.

[Salvager23]

Physical ranged DPS as in ranged weapon users (bows, crossbows, guns) correct? That's fine, it's definitely something that we could stand to see more of in WoW since only one class uses them. But the Bard can use ranged weapons too, friend! Sure it's be unoriginal to implement in WoW (not that that has ever been a particular issue to begin with, WoW is overall not very original I think we can all agree) BUT the Bard from FFXIV wields a bow. And it makes more sense than melee DPS from a gameplay perspective regarding the Bard since the class, both DPS and heals, would have a focus on support abilities.

Your ranged tanking example is thematic, not gameplay. "Its still melee range but using guns, lasers, etc." That doesn't matter to the numbers.

By mana free healing do you mean just mana or resource free healing in general? The former is already in the game and the latter would never happen and Tinkers wouldn't include it.

This is sort of unfair because you're just pulling random Bard ideas from anywhere. I don't think a WoW Bard would work like a Final Fantasy Bard for example. I think before we discuss this, we need to know exactly what a Bard can and can't do in the context of Warcraft.

I also don't see Bards tanking period.

What other class heals without Mana?

[Darththeo]

This is sort of unfair because you're just pulling random Bard ideas from anywhere. I don't think a WoW Bard would work like a Final Fantasy Bard for example. I think before we discuss this, we need to know exactly what a Bard can and can't do in the context of Warcraft.

I also don't see Bards tanking period.

What other class heals without Mana?

None, mainly because WoW devs can't think outside the box when it comes to healing. I think it would have been interesting if Monk didn't use Mana and rather used energy and chi for their heals only. I was disappointed when they were just another mana healer.

[Sagenod]

This is sort of unfair because you're just pulling random Bard ideas from anywhere. I don't think a WoW Bard would work like a Final Fantasy Bard for example. I think before we discuss this, we need to know exactly what a Bard can and can't do in the context of Warcraft.

I also don't see Bards tanking period.

What other class heals without Mana?

What do you mean by unfair? The point I'm trying to make is that the few relatively unoccupied gameplay archetypes in WoW could be filled by Bard just as well as the Tinker. From a thematic standpoint, obviously the two have a very different role.

Of course Bards wouldn't tank! I said what I said because your example of Tinkers as tanks was about design rather the specific type of gameplay. Ranged tank will most likely never happen, we both agree I'm sure.

Well Paladins primarily use Mana but they also have Holy Power. And what resource would Tinkers use for healing other than Mana? I think it's safe to say that the healing specs are balanced around having Mana as a primary resource, so this point of the discussion is probably meaningless.

[Rhlor]

PFT.



Need I say more?

you can be a bard like geralt's partner is a bard a person who sings and plays the lute and waits and does nothing else! maybe cause trouble and be comic relief

[Aldo Hawk]

PFT.



Need I say more?

Yeah, it's a well known profession.

[Ielenia]

Hmm, other thread got locked for some reason. I'll repost on here...

Bards would be an awesome addition to the class lineup! I'd do something like this:

• Sonically-enhanced physical ranged class. Uses bows, crossbows, and guns and wears mail armor.

• Instruments are not equipped but are instead used in the spell effects like paladin librams are now.

• Different instrument glyphs are unlocked through achievements and rare loot all around the world, and they can be purchased from the bard class trainer after they are unlocked.

• Spell animations would use the sonic "multiple yellow rings" effect we see in the game already for sonic-based attacks (like the mantid use). Dirgists would have a shadowy color though.

Specs - Illusionist, Dirgist, Hymnist

• Illusionists would create temporary pets through magical songs that function similarly to the inscription blood summons from the tools of the trade blood quill (but actually strong).

• Dirgists would sing songs of lament and sadness, tormenting their foes with damage over time attacks and performance-reducing debuffs.

• Hymnists would help their allies through spiritual songs that uplift and inspire, doing healing over time and using performance-enhancing buffs on their allies.

The first four points is how I think a bard class would work and how I envisioned my concept. Bows, crossbows and guns, and mail or leather armor; instruments would be just casting animations, etc.

I only went with a tad further making one of the specs a melee spec inspired in the Three Musketeers movies, with a Fencing spec.

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Yeah, it's a well known profession.

Just like warriors and paladins. Well known professions.