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  1. #361
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    /snip
    So to summarize this discussion;

    Dave Kosack is lying because his official statement contradicts your personal beliefs.

    Pandaren, Pandaria, and Chen aren't based on China, or Chinese culture because it contradicts your arguments.

    Russell Browar and Hearthsinger Forrensten are as popular as Chen Stormstout prior to MoP because of your personal opinion.

    Did I miss anything?

  2. #362
    TLR of this post


    Named Bards in Warcraft Lore

    Russell Brower
    Hearthsinger Forresten
    Grenja
    Russel the Bard
    Jay the Tavern Bard

    Not a bard specifically but has "bard like" abilities

    Sirens


    Bard/Bard like Abilities

    Enchanting Lullaby - Hearthsinger Forresten
    Wedding Hymn - Russell Brower

    Siren Abilities:

    Shattering Song
    Wailing Torrent
    Soothing Melody
    Rupturing Note
    Siren's Song
    Screech
    Wailing Torrent
    Shattering Scream


    Bards do exist in lore and there is ample evidence of bard like magic and effects also existing in Warcraft lore.

  3. #363
    Wish they can make bard an optional profession to fill in the hole left in First aid's removal.

  4. #364
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadriker View Post
    Bards do exist in lore and there is ample evidence of bard like magic and effects also existing in Warcraft lore.
    Bards exist in lore the same way blacksmiths, shop keepers, farmers, herbalist, inscribers, sailors, etc. exist in lore. That doesn't make them material for a hero or a class.

  5. #365
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So to summarize this discussion;
    You mean, to lie and misrepresent the discussion? Because that's what you did, here.

    Dave Kosack is lying because his official statement contradicts your personal beliefs.
    What I'm saying is that I have never seen or been shown the pandaren being requested as a playable race, here or in the official forums, ever. There is also the massive backlash for introducing pandaren in MoP when it was announced. Those aren't things you'd expect for a "widely requested" race.

    You could show here any forum thread, here or from the official forums, asking for pandaren. But you haven't shown any.

    Pandaren, Pandaria, and Chen aren't based on China, or Chinese culture because it contradicts your arguments.
    I never said any of that. Ever. All I said was that just because the WC3 unit was inspired off Chinese culture and folklore, it does not necessarily mean "oriental style martial arts."

    Russell Browar and Hearthsinger Forrensten are as popular as Chen Stormstout prior to MoP because of your personal opinion.
    Once again, I never said any of that. Ever. All I said is that Russell and Forresten are as obscure lore characters as Chen was prior to MoP. Big difference.

    Did I miss anything?
    You forgot to use honesty and and proper argument representation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Bards exist in lore the same way blacksmiths, shop keepers, farmers, herbalist, inscribers, sailors, etc. exist in lore. That doesn't make them material for a hero or a class.
    Those exact same words could be said about the tinkers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyeonh View Post
    Wish they can make bard an optional profession to fill in the hole left in First aid's removal.
    Bards are just as much a "profession" as warriors are a profession. In other words: how can a concept that doesn't craft anything be a profession? Bards don't craft armor, weapons, or even instruments.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  6. #366
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You mean, to lie and misrepresent the discussion? Because that's what you did, here.


    What I'm saying is that I have never seen or been shown the pandaren being requested as a playable race, here or in the official forums, ever. There is also the massive backlash for introducing pandaren in MoP when it was announced. Those aren't things you'd expect for a "widely requested" race.

    You could show here any forum thread, here or from the official forums, asking for pandaren. But you haven't shown any.
    All this shows is that even official statements from Blizzard isn't enough "evidence" for you.


    I never said any of that. Ever. All I said was that just because the WC3 unit was inspired off Chinese culture and folklore, it does not necessarily mean "oriental style martial arts."
    Wouldn't their fighting style also be inspired by Chinese culture and folklore since every other aspect of the character is?

    Once again, I never said any of that. Ever. All I said is that Russell and Forresten are as obscure lore characters as Chen was prior to MoP. Big difference.
    Which is again saying that those characters are as popular as Chen Stormstout prior to MoP.

    Meanwhile I'm not seeing a companion item based on Russell Brower or Forrensten, nor a Warcraft action figure based on them either.


    Those exact same words could be said about the tinkers.
    .
    Except the WC3 Tinker hero and multiple NPCs in WoW with their abilities and attributes. Those NPCs also happen to be major lore characters who appear in multiple expansions and actually impact the narrative. I wish the same could be said for Bards.

  7. #367
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    All this shows is that even official statements from Blizzard isn't enough "evidence" for you.
    Not that when said "official statements" don't match with reality. Where were all those requests for pandaren? All those threads asking for them to be playable? All those polls showing the pandaren as the "most requested race" or even as "one of" the most requested races? Why was there a backlash against the pandaren instead of celebration?

    Wouldn't their fighting style also be inspired by Chinese culture and folklore since every other aspect of the character is?
    Not necessarily monk-style martial arts. If I recall, "pikeman, bladedancer and geomancer" were the options presented in the April Fools lore.

    Which is again saying that those characters are as popular as Chen Stormstout prior to MoP.
    Again, no. Obscurity and popularity are not the same. Obscure characters can be popular, and notable characters can be unpopular.

    Except the WC3 Tinker hero and multiple NPCs in WoW with their abilities and attributes.
    Once again: abilities are meaningless for creating classes. Concepts are what's important. Abilities come from concepts, not the other way around. What do you honestly think is more likely to happen in development?

    This:
    Developer A: "Hey, I've created this fireball ability!"
    Developer B: "Cool. What classes can we design around it?

    Or this:
    Developer A: "Hey, I have this concept for a mage!"
    Developer B: "Cool. What abilities can we create from it?"

    Those NPCs also happen to be major lore characters who appear in multiple expansions and actually impact the narrative. I wish the same could be said for Bards.
    Ah. So now you're suddenly switching to Tinker, because you cannot say the same for the monk, who never appeared in the game until his expansion, and impacted in nothing the narrative.

    And, once again, you make another arbitrary rule. You haven't proved that, to design a class, we need a "major lore character that appears in multiple expansions and actually impact the narrative." Cool, cool. One more into the bullshit folder.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2020-05-29 at 02:00 AM.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  8. #368
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Not that when said "official statements" don't match with reality.
    Your reality. In actual reality, the Pandaren became reality in WC3:TFT from their April Fool's joke origin because of positive fan reaction in the first place.

    Not necessarily monk-style martial arts. If I recall, "pikeman, bladedancer and geomancer" were the options presented in the April Fools lore.
    And the Brewmaster was the official Pandaren unit that appeared after the April Fool's joke became an actual part of the game.

    Again, no. Obscurity and popularity are not the same. Obscure characters can be popular, and notable characters can be unpopular.
    And that's false. We know where Stormstout came from, and the Brewmaster and Pandaren were heavily discussed in the RPGs and TCGs in the years between WC3 and MoP. You could even roll a Brewmaster class in the RPG. Example;



    Once again, nothing like that for Bards.

    Once again: abilities are meaningless for creating classes. Concepts are what's important. Abilities come from concepts, not the other way around. What do you honestly think is more likely to happen in development?

    This:
    Developer A: "Hey, I've created this fireball ability!"
    Developer B: "Cool. What classes can we design around it?

    Or this:
    Developer A: "Hey, I have this concept for a mage!"
    Developer B: "Cool. What abilities can we create from it?"
    And if you don't have any intention of turning your concept into a class, you don't make any abilities for it. Such as the Lorewalker, or the Bard NPCs.


    Ah. So now you're suddenly switching to Tinker, because you cannot say the same for the monk, who never appeared in the game until his expansion, and impacted in nothing the narrative.
    Hilarious. You brought up the Tinker, not me. Also Chen impacted the narrative in WC3:TFT. He really didn't need to do much after that.

    And, once again, you make another arbitrary rule. You haven't proved that, to design a class, we need a "major lore character that appears in multiple expansions and actually impact the narrative." Cool, cool. One more into the bullshit folder.
    Well I would search for a statement from Blizzard, but you've already shown that that doesn't matter, so......

  9. #369
    There's a bard in WoD, at the Alliance Capital.

  10. #370
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyeonh View Post
    Wish they can make bard an optional profession to fill in the hole left in First aid's removal.
    Yes, a profession makes the most sense for a Bard concept, given the lack of NPCs with abilities and lore heroes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    There's a bard in WoD, at the Alliance Capital.
    Does he have any abilities? That's what's important. If he's just an NPC standing around with a guitar, he's no better than a shop or innkeeper.

  11. #371
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Your reality. In actual reality, the Pandaren became reality in WC3:TFT from their April Fool's joke origin because of positive fan reaction in the first place.
    None of that evidences a "demand for pandaren as a playable race in World of Warcraft", as I pointed out.

    And the Brewmaster was the official Pandaren unit that appeared after the April Fool's joke became an actual part of the game.
    Which, I must remind you again, has never acted like a monk, nor was ever referred to as one, until MoP came along. No official iteration of the character was ever referred to as such.

    And that's false. We know where Stormstout came from, and the Brewmaster and Pandaren were heavily discussed in the RPGs and TCGs in the years between WC3 and MoP.
    Were they "heavily discussed"? If true, you shouldn't have any trouble producing links to at least a couple different discussions about pandarens, right? I'll be waiting.

    You could even roll a Brewmaster class in the RPG. Example;

    https://gamepedia.cursecdn.com/wowpe...b12709d66db4b3

    Once again, nothing like that for Bards.
    That image is not a pandaren brewmaster, that's a pandaren "transcendant". Yes, that's the name of the class. And they're just, well, "transcending" geomancers, not monks. And they also do not "split" into three separate pandaren, but actually individually take on the aspect of a given element, like a druid changing forms.

    As for "brewmasters" in the RPG, guess what? It's not a monk. Literally just a "brewmaster". One who uses the magical-like effects of his specialized brews on himself to fight drunk, but not a monk. A brew afficionado who really knows how to make some potent spirits.

    And if you don't have any intention of turning your concept into a class, you don't make any abilities for it. Such as the Lorewalker, or the Bard NPCs.
    Wrong. Not to mention there are bard-like abilities in this game, and bards that are showcased in combat scenarios.

    Well I would search for a statement from Blizzard, but you've already shown that that doesn't matter, so......
    Don't try to evade. You showed a statement of Blizzard when one was not only needed, since I was asking for player feedback, i.e., threads created by players requesting pandaren as a playable race, or polls for new races showing the pandaren in the lead, but also irrelevant since I did not ask for a developer's opinion on something that didn't pertain to them.

    Their statements do matter when we're talking about themselves and their own rules and processes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yes, a profession makes the most sense for a Bard concept, given the lack of NPCs with abilities and lore heroes.
    We have several bard NPCs in the lore, and them having abilities or not does not matter. It's completely irrelevant, because what really matters it's the concept, which is from where everything about the class is designed around.

    Does he have any abilities? That's what's important.
    No. That is absolutely not important in the slightest. What's important is the concept. And it's from the concept that class design (which includes abilities), come from. Classes don't come from abilities, classes come from concepts.

    Also: you haven't answered my question. If you can demand answers for your questions, it's really dishonest from you to not answer when people ask you questions.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  12. #372
    I think the Chanter class in Pillars of Eternity would be a good design to base the eventual WoW bard class on:


  13. #373
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    None of that evidences a "demand for pandaren as a playable race in World of Warcraft", as I pointed out.
    If you want to look up forum posts from over a decade ago that’s your business. From my standpoint, Blizzard says that a Pandarens were the most demanded feature in WoW, and I believe them.

    Which, I must remind you again, has never acted like a monk, nor was ever referred to as one, until MoP came along. No official iteration of the character was ever referred to as such.
    What does a Monk “act” like?


    Were they "heavily discussed"? If true, you shouldn't have any trouble producing links to at least a couple different discussions about pandarens, right? I'll be waiting.
    There’s an entire section discussing Pandaren and Pandaren Brewmasters here;


    http://pitofdespair.randominsanity.o...ns%20(OEF).pdf


    That image is not a pandaren brewmaster, that's a pandaren "transcendant". Yes, that's the name of the class. And they're just, well, "transcending" geomancers, not monks. And they also do not "split" into three separate pandaren, but actually individually take on the aspect of a given element, like a druid changing forms.

    As for "brewmasters" in the RPG, guess what? It's not a monk. Literally just a "brewmaster". One who uses the magical-like effects of his specialized brews on himself to fight drunk, but not a monk. A brew afficionado who really knows how to make some potent spirits.
    Yeah, the transcendent is based on the Brewmasters Storm/Earth/Fire ultimate from WC3. Also if you check out the Brewmaster class from the RPG, it has abilities like Drunken Fist, Drunken Stance, and Flurry of Blows. You’ll also be happy to learn that they mention “martial arts” a couple of times.

    You can read all about it starting on page 56 in the Dark Factions sourcebook;

    http://pitofdespair.randominsanity.o...ns%20(OEF).pdf

    Also I don’t think a Bard class ever showed up in the WoW or WC RPG books. I think that’s interesting considering all the other classes that showed up in those books.

    Wrong. Not to mention there are bard-like abilities in this game, and bards that are showcased in combat scenarios.
    There’s only Russel Brower. Hearthsinger is using Hunter abilities.


    Don't try to evade. You showed a statement of Blizzard when one was not only needed, since I was asking for player feedback, i.e.,
    You asked for evidence of playable Pandaren being popular. I provided evidence via an official statement from Blizzard themselves and you said that they were lying.

    Case closed.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Bards are just as much a "profession" as warriors are a profession. In other words: how can a concept that doesn't craft anything be a profession? Bards don't craft armor, weapons, or even instruments.
    Ever Played Mabinogi? Bard for the longest time is there as recreational it doesn't have to make a product other than custom music to be enjoyed by others, and it was years before they expanded on it with giving buffs and eventually other effects.

  15. #375
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If you want to look up forum posts from over a decade ago that’s your business. From my standpoint, Blizzard says that a Pandarens were the most demanded feature in WoW, and I believe them.
    That's your gullibility if you want to believe the word of someone who has nothing to do with what the statement was about. Blizzard isn't the players. Would you believe them if Blizzard said that BfA was a "massive success"?

    What does a Monk “act” like?
    So "acting like a monk" is sufficient for you to consider a character a monk, but characters acting like bards, despite not being called such, is not enough for you to consider them bards.

    That's the textbook definition of "double-standards".

    There’s an entire section discussing Pandaren and Pandaren Brewmasters here;
    I was talking about player discussion. Y'know, the whole "pandaren is (one of) the most requested playable race" and all that, that I haven't seen even a single shred of evidence in almost fifteen years.

    Yeah, the transcendent is based on the Brewmasters Storm/Earth/Fire ultimate from WC3. Also if you check out the Brewmaster class from the RPG, it has abilities like Drunken Fist, Drunken Stance, and Flurry of Blows. You’ll also be happy to learn that they mention “martial arts” a couple of times.
    And you'll be unhappy to be reminded of that "martial arts" does not necessarily means "oriental style martial arts" that are commonly attributed to monks.

    Also I don’t think a Bard class ever showed up in the WoW or WC RPG books. I think that’s interesting considering all the other classes that showed up in those books.
    And I find that to be irrelevant information since the RPG books are highly, highly unlikely (not to say impossible) that they have any bearing on WoW class design since they're all non-canon, developed by other companies than Blizzard.

    There’s only Russel Brower. Hearthsinger is using Hunter abilities.
    Irrelevant, as explained multiple times to you, already: Blizzard is known to using abilities that already exist in the game for the mobs in the game when what we have is already close enough to what they want the mob to do.

    You asked for evidence of playable Pandaren being popular. I provided evidence via an official statement from Blizzard themselves and you said that they were lying.
    I asked you to show me players requesting pandaren.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyeonh View Post
    Ever Played Mabinogi? Bard for the longest time is there as recreational it doesn't have to make a product other than custom music to be enjoyed by others, and it was years before they expanded on it with giving buffs and eventually other effects.
    Mabinogi is a completely different MMO game, with completely different mechanics, is it not?
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  16. #376
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That's your gullibility if you want to believe the word of someone who has nothing to do with what the statement was about. Blizzard isn't the players. Would you believe them if Blizzard said that BfA was a "massive success"?
    I believe that Blizzard knows what is being requested more than anyone else. Including you.


    So "acting like a monk" is sufficient for you to consider a character a monk, but characters acting like bards, despite not being called such, is not enough for you to consider them bards.

    That's the textbook definition of "double-standards".
    Not at all. Again, we had a Brewmaster hero to tie it all together. We don't have anything like that for a Bard.


    I was talking about player discussion. Y'know, the whole "pandaren is (one of) the most requested playable race" and all that, that I haven't seen even a single shred of evidence in almost fifteen years.
    So Blizzard saying it isn't evidence?


    And you'll be unhappy to be reminded of that "martial arts" does not necessarily means "oriental style martial arts" that are commonly attributed to monks.
    Why would it be called "oriental martial arts" when the Pandaren Brewmaster or the Monk class isn't doing "oriental martial arts"?

    And I find that to be irrelevant information since the RPG books are highly, highly unlikely (not to say impossible) that they have any bearing on WoW class design since they're all non-canon, developed by other companies than Blizzard.
    So a sourcebook greenlit and supported by Blizzard for years is not relevant information simply because it is currently considered non-canon? Leading up to MoP, it wasn't considered non-canon. The RPG books weren't de-canonized until 2011, when MoP was well into development and near announcement.

    Irrelevant, as explained multiple times to you, already: Blizzard is known to using abilities that already exist in the game for the mobs in the game when what we have is already close enough to what they want the mob to do.
    You mean like Unholy Aura or Metamorphosis for Demon Hunters and Death Knights before they appeared as a class in WoW?

  17. #377
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    There's still the problem with a Bard class and spec, as previusly mentioned. It its gameplay aplications on WOW. As the holy trinity its really strong on WOW and hybrid classes such a support or buffer class are not well balanced by Blizzard. This was the case on vanilla for Paladins, druids and shamans and then later expanded with TBC (shockadins) then Blizzard realize that Hybrid specs did better than standard specs/classes. So they decided to focus in one path and that ended on Legion.
    Now, if blizzard with the whole topic of "bring the class not the spec/player" on Shadowlands, Bards can return to be a solid next class/spec, with Tinker and Necromancer.
    Last edited by Kemsa; 2020-05-30 at 05:14 PM.

  18. #378
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I believe that Blizzard knows what is being requested more than anyone else. Including you.
    That's an appeal to authority fallacy. Because the developer is making a claim that: one, it does not fit his expertise; and two, does not seem to match with reality.

    Not at all. Again, we had a Brewmaster hero to tie it all together. We don't have anything like that for a Bard.
    Yes, we have bard characters to "tie" everything together. We also have the RPG bard concept to "tie" everything together.

    So Blizzard saying it isn't evidence?
    It's a claim without evidence. There were simply no requests for pandaren as a playable race, whatsoever. Worse: the huge backlash against the addition of the pandaren as a playable race seems to indicate the opposite.

    Why would it be called "oriental martial arts" when the Pandaren Brewmaster or the Monk class isn't doing "oriental martial arts"?
    But they are. It's blatantly obvious that the fighting style of the pandaren are heavily influenced by Chinese martial arts.

    So a sourcebook greenlit and supported by Blizzard for years is not relevant information simply because it is currently considered non-canon? Leading up to MoP, it wasn't considered non-canon. The RPG books weren't de-canonized until 2011, when MoP was well into development and near announcement.
    Wrong. They weren't "de-canonized" in 2011. They were just confirmed to be not canon. They were never canon, by the nature of them being developed by third-party companies.

    Unless you can find a statement from Blizzard from before 2011 confirming that the RPG books were canon?

    You mean like Unholy Aura or Metamorphosis for Demon Hunters and Death Knights before they appeared as a class in WoW?
    No spell in the game worked like Unholy aura or Metamorphosis. So, yes, Blizzard would create new abilities since none of the current abilities in WoW at the time had a similar effect.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kemsa View Post
    There's still the problem with a Bard class and spec, as previusly mentioned. It its gameplay aplications on WOW. As the holy trinity its really strong on WOW and hybrid classes such a support or buffer class are not well balanced by Blizzard.
    It's only a problem if you limit yourself into thinking that bards can only be a "support class" when they can easily be adapted into WoW's "trinity" system of DPS-healer-tank. Give it two dps specs, and one healer spec. Easily.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  19. #379
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That's an appeal to authority fallacy. Because the developer is making a claim that: one, it does not fit his expertise; and two, does not seem to match with reality.
    So you don't believe that a developer would be privy to what the general fanbase is asking for in WoW?


    Yes, we have bard characters to "tie" everything together. We also have the RPG bard concept to "tie" everything together.
    Name those characters.

    Also you don't have a WoW/Warcraft RPG concept to tie everything together. The Monk class did.


    It's a claim without evidence. There were simply no requests for pandaren as a playable race, whatsoever. Worse: the huge backlash against the addition of the pandaren as a playable race seems to indicate the opposite.
    You're assuming that. You don't know for sure if there were requests for Pandaren as a playable race, and you're also assuming that forum posts were the only way to petition Blizzard.


    But they are. It's blatantly obvious that the fighting style of the pandaren are heavily influenced by Chinese martial arts.
    Of course, but they won't literally say that in their media or source material. Also if you actually read the source book I linked to, the Brewmaster class in that book makes constant references to Chinese martial arts.


    Wrong. They weren't "de-canonized" in 2011. They were just confirmed to be not canon. They were never canon, by the nature of them being developed by third-party companies.

    Unless you can find a statement from Blizzard from before 2011 confirming that the RPG books were canon?
    Why? So you can say that statement is a lie as well?

    No spell in the game worked like Unholy aura or Metamorphosis. So, yes, Blizzard would create new abilities since none of the current abilities in WoW at the time had a similar effect
    Yeah, which shows that Blizzard doesn't always re-use existing abilities for mobs. If the mob has a root in WC3, they'll create abilities based on those abilities.

  20. #380
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So you don't believe that a developer would be privy to what the general fanbase is asking for in WoW?
    For him to be "privy to what the general fanbase is asking for", the playerbase has to actually ask for said something. And, so far, I haven't seen a single shred of evidence of the playerbase actually asking for pandaren as a playable race, whatsoever.

    It's no different from if the Diablo: Immortal developers said that a mobile Diablo game was what the playerbase wanted.

    Name those characters.
    They've been mentioned several times in this thread.

    Also you don't have a WoW/Warcraft RPG concept to tie everything together. The Monk class did.
    One: we do. They have been mentioned several times in this thread. Two: you haven't proved that we need a Warcraft 3/WoW character to make a class, that we can't make a class without one.

    You're assuming that. You don't know for sure if there were requests for Pandaren as a playable race, and you're also assuming that forum posts were the only way to petition Blizzard.
    I sincerely doubt people were writing actual physical letters to Blizzard to request pandaren as a playable race. Requests for playable pandaren have never popped up in the official forums in these fifteen years, nor have they showed up in this fan forum, as far as I know. Nor have they ever popped up on Blizzcon interviews. On top of that, there was the massive backlash against the pandaren when they were announced. That is not something you expect happening for a "widely requested" feature.

    Of course, but they won't literally say that in their media or source material.
    Of course not. But that doesn't change the fact that they are using Chinese martial arts-inspired techniques.

    Also if you actually read the source book I linked to, the Brewmaster class in that book makes constant references to Chinese martial arts.
    It does not. Really, it doesn't. It's all about getting drunk with special, magical beer, and fighting bare-fist. And fighting bare-fist does not equal to "monk". Otherwise, any bar brawler would be considered a monk.

    Why? So you can say that statement is a lie as well?
    I've already explained the context to you. If you can't understand context, that's on you. Not me.

    Yeah, which shows that Blizzard doesn't always re-use existing abilities for mobs. If the mob has a root in WC3, they'll create abilities based on those abilities.
    *sigh* I'll repeat what you clearly didn't read, despite quoting it:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Irrelevant, as explained multiple times to you, already: Blizzard is known to using abilities that already exist in the game for the mobs in the game when what we have is already close enough to what they want the mob to do.
    And
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No spell in the game worked like Unholy aura or Metamorphosis. So, yes, Blizzard would create new abilities since none of the current abilities in WoW at the time had a similar effect.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

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