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  1. #81
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    "world pvp is so bad that you need to bribe people to take interest in it" is such a nuclear bad take in a game mostly built out of repetitive and tedious gameplay loops that no one would bother with if they didn't want the rewards at the end.
    Taliriah - Silvermoon - EU

    Imagine being a company working on a game for more than 15 years and still managing to fuck it up so badly:

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by wraysbury View Post
    That's really the crux of the entire debate here: you don't understand what "difficulty" even means. There is no such thing as an "easy" BG (rated or not) because the other side always have as much chance to win as yours. It is not stacked by design like PvE.
    Hahaha. Yeah man, you're so right. Random BG PvP is definitely an equivalent battle of skills, and not at all anything to do with what team gets randomly assigned the most bots/healers/fresh boosts with <120k hp who queue into PvP because there is no penalty for dying over and over and over again except for getting all the same gear you get for winning slightly slower.

    Let me clarify something for you - I couldn't care less what content you do in this game. If you want to do nothing but unstructured, unrated PvP and pretend that takes skill, that's fine. But if you're going to run around and act like PvE in this game is "so easy anyone could do it" when you yourself literally can't, then expect to get called out on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by wraysbury View Post
    By the way, if world pvp is easy, then why are PvEers even complaining about warmode?
    Same reason you're complaining about PvE (and rated PvP, and basically anything that requires effort) - because they don't understand it. I get 25% bonus from Warmode, and the vast majority of people who I encounter are ~10+ ilvls below me and fall apart like paper. I'm not complaining

    Quote Originally Posted by wraysbury View Post
    "world pvp is so bad that you need to bribe people to take interest in it" is such a nuclear bad take in a game mostly built out of repetitive and tedious gameplay loops that no one would bother with if they didn't want the rewards at the end.
    Oh look, another embarrassing statement presented as objective fact and completely devoid of understanding. Do you know how many people give a shit about gear off of Mythic N'zoth at this point? I'll give you a clue the answer is very close to zero

  3. #83
    Speaking as someone who played a rogue and abused the shit out of warmode in BFA. It's hilarious that the most ardent defenders of WPvP are always rogues.

    Colour me surprised that gankfests are super fun when you're the only one who gets to decide when the play.

  4. #84
    the %bonus isnt the problem, the call to arms quests are

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by wraysbury View Post
    PvEers have been lobotomized by years of content literally designed to make them win and feel successful. They don't have the slightest clue of what "risk versus reward" means.
    and whenever devs say things like "make relevant choices" they bring their pitchforks to twitter and start churning stuff up. People dont want to make choices they cant change easily. People still ask for paid class changes lol.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    and whenever devs say things like "make relevant choices" they bring their pitchforks to twitter and start churning stuff up. People dont want to make choices they cant change easily. People still ask for paid class changes lol.
    Exactly this. I have been playing since late vanilla and just recently resubbed for BFA for the first time. It has also meant for me to start reading forums once again.
    Sweet mother of Jesus. Number of people complaining about everything is enormous and it's mostly guys unhappy about having additional options choices.
    Subject of Warmode is discussed here probably every second week and still same arguments are used. I just completely fail WHY something that can be completely turned off is such a pain in the ass of so many people.

    The equation is simple - you want bigger rewards, please be ready to PvP. Nothing is taken away from you when you turn it off. You DO NOT HAVE TO have special rewards. It is something extra for this additional risk of getting killed.
    On top of that, even though ilvl plays huge role, you can still solo people who are in a range of 20-30 ilvls. Since I have just started playing BFA, I was successfully killing or was very close to kill people without even having a cape, unlocked corruptions and azerite powers.

    Competing and challenges are fun for some people. Be it either playing Call of Duty on higher difficulty levels or doing very rare achievements/trophies in your console games - it entertains quite numerous crowd. PVP (and other smaller things - like Brawl) adds this element into the game.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by wraysbury View Post
    PvEers have been lobotomized by years of content literally designed to make them win and feel successful. They don't have the slightest clue of what "risk versus reward" means.
    Sorry? Tell me more about how pve content is designed to make us win, when u need 100-200 pulls to kill mythic boss, or when u fail another m+ key.

    Also what type of risk ve reward you have in pvp.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I see this as different because it wouldn't die... the queues would just be a bit longer. World pvp utterly dies when there's no reward to incentivize people to join up and lose.
    There's always been little things to do in wpvp, the EPL, HFP, Zangarmarsh towers, Halaa, Wintergrasp, Tol Barad, bloody coins, towers and FFA and Aviana.
    One of the most difficult things for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    Hahaha. Yeah man, you're so right. Random BG PvP is definitely an equivalent battle of skills, and not at all anything to do with what team gets randomly assigned the most bots/healers/fresh boosts with <120k hp who queue into PvP because there is no penalty for dying over and over and over again except for getting all the same gear you get for winning slightly slower.
    You are just focusing on whichever negative BG experience you have decided to remember to support your point. That's called confirmation bias.

    It's like when people complain that alliance never wins BGs. Usually it's simply because they just don't want to remember the wins because they don't support their preconception. When they lose they're like "figures. we always lose", and when they win they dismiss it as a fluke. You look a their armory and surprise, they actually have more than 50% win rate.

    Let me clarify something for you - I couldn't care less what content you do in this game.
    Oh. Thanks for the clarification, it wasn't really obvious due to all the posts you've been making about it.

    If you want to do nothing but unstructured, unrated PvP and pretend that takes skill, that's fine.
    I'm not pretending that takes skill. There's a difference between saying "the thing I don't do is easy" and "the thing I do is hard". But you're a little dumb so I can see how you can easily fall for these false dichotomies.

    But if you're going to run around and act like PvE in this game is "so easy anyone could do it" when you yourself literally can't, then expect to get called out on it.
    It's not that I can't, just that I won't. But if you want to pretend that doing PvE makes you a better person than me, go ahead. You have to take whatever you can.
    Taliriah - Silvermoon - EU

    Imagine being a company working on a game for more than 15 years and still managing to fuck it up so badly:

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Monoxide View Post
    Can't tell if trolling.
    He just left out … when its the same class/spec and the same ilvl it's even.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Speaking as someone who played a rogue and abused the shit out of warmode in BFA. It's hilarious that the most ardent defenders of WPvP are always rogues.

    Colour me surprised that gankfests are super fun when you're the only one who gets to decide when the play.
    You are a big fan of DHs right?

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Speaking as someone who played a rogue and abused the shit out of warmode in BFA. It's hilarious that the most ardent defenders of WPvP are always rogues.

    Colour me surprised that gankfests are super fun when you're the only one who gets to decide when the play.
    Counterpoints: rogues are only fun in small scale fights, and people in warmode prefer to group up in big zergs. Try playing ashran as a rogue to see what I mean.
    Taliriah - Silvermoon - EU

    Imagine being a company working on a game for more than 15 years and still managing to fuck it up so badly:

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Speaking as someone who played a rogue and abused the shit out of warmode in BFA. It's hilarious that the most ardent defenders of WPvP are always rogues.

    Colour me surprised that gankfests are super fun when you're the only one who gets to decide when the play.
    I always assume that anyone who defends WPvP is playing Rogue.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by wraysbury View Post
    Counterpoints: rogues are only fun in small scale fights, and people in warmode prefer to group up in big zergs. Try playing ashran as a rogue to see what I mean.
    Except the zergs are the problem people complain about in warmode "I got killed by 15 H/A and that's not fun because I had no chance" and again rogues get to choose when they want to play while being able to keep the advantages of warmode all the time.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Except the zergs are the problem people complain about in warmode "I got killed by 15 H/A and that's not fun because I had no chance" and again rogues get to choose when they want to play while being able to keep the advantages of warmode all the time.
    Which means that the problem is zergs, not rogues.
    Taliriah - Silvermoon - EU

    Imagine being a company working on a game for more than 15 years and still managing to fuck it up so badly:

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by wraysbury View Post
    Which means that the problem is zergs, not rogues.
    My point wasn't that rogues were a 'problem'. My point is a rogues kit allows you to get all the 'fun' of wPvP while never having to eat the shit (unless you mess up, twice) hence it is almost always rogues that are bias towards supporting wPvP because there are essentially now downsides to it for them.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I don't care about world pvp. But I always have war mode on, because the 10% bonus to things like vision drops is just too good to ignore. Most of the time it doesn't matter, but every once in a while I have to just stand there while a group of 5 alliance fly in, blow everything they have on me, and watch me die.

    What war mode has solved is the basic problem with world pvp - no one likes to lose, so people who are going to lose opt out. With war mode, it creates a ready population of people who are going to accept losing in return for the war mode buff. People like me.

    PvP is a fine game mode, I'm not really interested in it but doesn't bother me that it exists. World pvp is to instanced pvp like real sex is to prostitution, though... you don't have to earn it, you just put yourselves in situations where there's no risk and you fuck disinterested people. Prostitutes get paid with money, I get paid with the 10% bonus.

    Recently, when people attack me in the world, I've taken to emoting that I'm "moaning in pleasure" and "begging for more" as they blow their cds on me, looking ridiculous. Those people are paying blizzard to play, they want a rigged game that feels like the real thing, and blizzard is paying me with the war mode bonus to take their shit. Might as well make them feel as weird as possible while they are doing it.

    To me, the war mode bonus should only reward pvp rewards so that it's only people who want to pvp are there. The problem with that is you still end up with a lot of people who will only play if they are winning. My solution to that: Blizz should secretly put bots in the game that look like real players, so that the world pvpers can feel like they are owning shit and they stop bothering everyone else.
    Its your choice to let them blow their load on you dont put this on blizzard. If you are into that stuff you shouldnt put it on others.
    Last edited by keldarepewpew; 2020-05-19 at 12:00 PM.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by HCLM View Post
    Sorry? Tell me more about how pve content is designed to make us win, when u need 100-200 pulls to kill mythic boss, or when u fail another m+ key.

    Also what type of risk ve reward you have in pvp.
    Really? I play both PvE and PvP, but a PvP match ends when you lose, a raid does not. You're meant to throw yourself at it until it drops, and that counts as a win, not 200-1.

    Also, let's not be retarded and claim that Mythic is the "main" PvE difficulty. Yes, PvE can be hard, but it's ALWAYS designed to be beaten, whereas PvP is ALWAYS designed to be even (even if that isn't the result).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    My point wasn't that rogues were a 'problem'. My point is a rogues kit allows you to get all the 'fun' of wPvP while never having to eat the shit (unless you mess up, twice) hence it is almost always rogues that are bias towards supporting wPvP because there are essentially now downsides to it for them.
    Rogue is one of my least played classes in recent years (Druid is close), and I love world PvP. I can see a point in complaining about how lucrative War Mode is for Alliance players who want to avoid scary PvP, but Hordes complaining should get no sympathy from literally anyone, as the bonus is a measly 10% and if you dislike PvP enough to complain about it on forums you dislike it enough to turn War Mode off.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by wraysbury View Post
    That's why you don't know what to make of war mode, because in war mode you are confronted with something that is not stacked to automatically make you win.
    ???

    that's literally why i do CTA quests, because it's stacked in my favor and fast. the only challenge is finding a shard with enough victims.

    though i will admit in nazjatar there is often 20v20 battles up and down the road between the towns, which is surprisingly fun. and that is only possible because of warmode, but it's also a once in 2 expansions phenomenon so far.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    My point wasn't that rogues were a 'problem'. My point is a rogues kit allows you to get all the 'fun' of wPvP while never having to eat the shit (unless you mess up, twice) hence it is almost always rogues that are bias towards supporting wPvP because there are essentially now downsides to it for them.
    Fair enough. But then maybe its just zerging that needs to be addressed.

    From what I've seen, most people in warmode mostly don't kill just for the fun of it, they kill whenever there's a specific reward for it, namely when someone has a bounty (no matter how many people after that guy they all receive the same amount of reward), and when there's a call to arms quests, where they look for the most efficient ways to farm kills.

    So to me the solution is to make it so that zerging these things give diminishing returns. For call to arms quests, replace the objective of killing N player by an objective of earning a certain amount of honor in the concerned zone, and let the existing system that spreads honor wins across all participants do the rest. In that scenario many people zerging a few people will not be very efficient so it will discourage people from doing it.

    Do a similar system with bounties where the more people participate in the killing, the less conquest each one of them earn. Allow conquest to be collected from bounties several times per day to make up for it.

    There are also supply crates but those being single points disputed by both factions, it mostly ends up with a zerg versus zerg situation. This isn't the type of gameplay I personally prefer but it doesn't have that really one sided unbalance factor that you see in call to arms quests and bounties.

    (btw this is sadly a completely futile exercise because I'm pretty sure that I remember that we told the devs all of this back during bfa's beta)
    Last edited by wraysbury; 2020-05-19 at 02:18 PM.
    Taliriah - Silvermoon - EU

    Imagine being a company working on a game for more than 15 years and still managing to fuck it up so badly:

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Really? I play both PvE and PvP, but a PvP match ends when you lose, a raid does not. You're meant to throw yourself at it until it drops, and that counts as a win, not 200-1.

    Also, let's not be retarded and claim that Mythic is the "main" PvE difficulty. Yes, PvE can be hard, but it's ALWAYS designed to be beaten, whereas PvP is ALWAYS designed to be even (even if that isn't the result).
    Is it though? If you spend enough time grinding arena games you will get to the rating you want in the end, just like if you spend enough time on the boss you will kill it in the end

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