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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    i detect no lies
    Sylvanas' stated objective during BFA was to kill as many people as possible to feed souls to the maw. "Letting the alliance live" is antithetical to her stated goals.
    The Horde were not 'already beaten' at the battle of Blackrock, Doomhammer was trying to stall for time to wait for reinforcements from both Azeroth and Draenor,
    Doomhammer dispatched messengers back to the world of Draenor to call upon the overly-bloodthirsty orc clans left behind during the initial invasion of Azeroth. Additionally, orders were also sent to Chieftain Zuluhed of the Dragonmaw clan in Grim Batol to gather any remaining red dragons they could (including their matriarch Alexstrasza) and bring them to Blackrock Spire. Finally, messages were also sent to the Black Tooth Grin clan, at the time still returning by sea from defeating Gul'dan at the Tomb of Sargeras. They were informed of the Horde's new rendezvous point and told to make haste there in anticipation for the upcoming battle.
    The only reason Turalyon had a chance to 'slaughter' anybody was doomhammer attacking the alliance encampment to kill Lothar (which was retconned from a cowardly ambush because Metzan can't handle his self inserts not being "badass noble savages").

    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post
    There is no possible context, except one in which we are expected to hold Jaina to medieval standards of morality, in which leading a pogrom like this was not entirely immoral. Even going by the "its an Alliance city now" logic its still unjustifiable. She did not attempt to negotiate with the Sunreavers to allow some of the civilians willing to reconcile with the Alliance to stay, or if that was impossible at least give some time for those who wanted to leave a newly Alliance city with their possessions to do so (after which you could argue if they chose to stay its fair game). Instead in a single impulsive moment she started a violent pogrom to forcibly imprison all Blood Elves in the city, resulting in a slew of entirely preventable deaths and the leaving the survivors as refugees with nothing but the robes on their backs.

    We're not talking about a group of infiltrators who should rightly expect to be driven out at a moments notice, but a population of Dalaran citizens who only moments before were living comfortably in a neutral city they had called home for 2000 years. With a single diktat Jaina stripped them of their citizenship, seized all of their homes, possessions and livelihoods and then forcibly imprisoned beneath the city- they weren't even allowed to flee lest they take some of their own possessions with them. At the very least Jaina owed them this much considering that only seconds ago they were full legal citizens of the city, and could hardly have been expected to see what was coming. In what world is a civilian shopkeeper trying to defend their home and livelihood the bad guy in this scenario?
    Enemy aliens (and I'm sorry that's what they were) are detained during (actual) wartime, this is not a medieval morality that is today's morality. During WWII, Germans were detained in the UK, US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. I know you might find that unpleasant given the Americans handled it poorly with the Japanese but that does not make the general practice unusual (or cruel since we both know the further you go back in time the option becomes more like permanent expulsion or massacre).
    Further, why would she be under any onus to negotiate with a group she believes are complicit in the total annihilation of her state and people? Even if she was open to negotiation she literally had all the power she would be within her rights to require the unconditional surrender of all the sunreavers as forfeiture of their property.

    I agree with the advantage of retrospect we can see it could have been handled better (ideally without vareesa going full murder machine). Obviously both her and vareesa wanted vengeance for their loss and they lashed out at the only potentially guilty (and remember some were guilty) party they could get their hands on. It's not a "good" act it's not even a neutral act but Jaina's attempt to imprison them is hardly evil. Vareesa, however, was being needlessly violent and cruel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post
    "War's a sonofabitch" is a great meme for justifying Garrosh or Sylvanas but doesn't work very well with the Alliance that's supposed to be the good guys of the conflict. If you're trying to defend an action as "not evil" then simply saying "its war" is not a very good attempt- all that seems to imply is that it is evil, but you think this kind of evil is justified in a wartime scenario. Which like I said earlier has plenty of real-world precedents which I think most people would be uncomfortable endorsing.
    I was implying war is not fair. Sure the Sunreavers suffered, more than some, less than others. I'm not saying "dude LMAO its war" about nuking someone or burning a civilization alive. I'm saying the idea that if the alliance causes any suffering to any group, under any circumstances ever that must somehow be considered unacceptable because they aren't moustache-twirling villains is silly.
    Losing one's possessions or liberty during wartime to the enemy is just an unfortunate reality of war, if no one stood to gain or lose anything there would be no war.
    Vareesa ordering you to cut off the blood elve's escape to intentionally increase casualties, however, it not an unfortunate reality of war it's a needless deliberate act to designed to increase suffering.
    Last edited by Saltysquidoon; 2020-05-20 at 03:16 AM.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Jaina's plan was to imprison them,
    yeah her first actions on the scene CLEARLY demonstrate that... or wait, no. that was killing in cold blood as judge, jury and executor without even levying charges.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    The Alliance knew about shooting the innocent goblin ships and didn't care. Jaina and Vereesa are part of the Alliance and were never punished by the Alliance for their actions. As for Taurajo, no. If you go there in game, you can see numerous dead civilians in the burning town.
    Neither Jaina, nor Vereesa were active members of the alliance at the time though. Vereesa is a member of the Silver Covenant (not the alliance - but are affiliated with them in dalaran obviously and very anti-horde). Jaina was the leader of the Kirin Tor and "Neutral" at the time, with the actions leading to (and after) the purge cementing her back into the alliance.

    Again, not condoning the actions, was just curious about some of the specifics pertaining to the goblins particularly.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Cavemen are considered primitive and even if they were just blue/green rats one day and instantly trolls the next day, it doesn't mean there wasn't life or species before it.

    The fact that Blizzard calls it evolution and not rat instantly transforming into trolls should make you realize there is stuff inbetween x and y.

    And you hand waving elementals and shit because you personally don't believe them to be a race doesn't magically make then not one.

    Also notice how trolls vary by tribe? If they didnt evolve then they all should look like Proto Zandalari. Just because they keep the name troll it doesn't make them more special then the elves. It's even more funny that without the Titans intervention trolls would have never existed.
    Trolls and elves are not the same species in any shape or form. The troll variations look different because they were all situated in different areas, thus physically adapting to their environment. Also, cavemen are not considered primitive lifeforms. They are a primitive RACE. If trolls had evolved from another race, that would have been stated in the lore. Since there is no mention of it, that means they didn't evolve from another race and would evolved from surrounding fauna. The Well of Eternity basically caused whatever species there was around it to skip thousands of years of evolution to become the trolls.

  5. #265
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Not all orcs were part of the armies that went around murdering, but all orcs were put in internment camps. Especially the internment camps that Thrall helped liberate, the ones controlled by Blackmoore, were especially cruel and vile. During a time when Jaina and Arthas met as children, Jaina commented on the cruelty of the camps. It wasn't that just the orcs thought it was cruel, even a lot of humans found it in poor taste but they simply couldn't think of a better solution to the camps - and yet, the camps were still in such a state and the orcs were treated in such a way that it influenced characters like Jaina forever.
    Yeah, privileged humans - nobility - that didn't live through what the Orcs did, whether it be the invasion or the destruction of homes and families, found it inhumane. Quite frankly, Jaina judging what people who suffered through the invasions is, simply, irrelevant; people who didn't live through what the Orcs did, or are unable to understand their perspectives, have no merit in their comments.

    The fact is that the Orcs who weren't fighting in the armies, when they came through, wanted to found their new home on the corpses of dead Humans, Gnomes, and Dwarves. Whether they were a part of the army is entire irrelevant, if your actions, either explicitly or implicitly, support the army that is causing a genocide, you share culpability in that genocide. I should also note, for people giving them the benefit of the doubt: we know that this isn't the first time the Orcs even committed a genocide. This is the exact same group that tried to exterminate the Draenei, and yet people still want to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's insane.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Shaw considers the modern Horde, like Baine and Thrall, responsible for Llane Wrynn's death.
    I don't know if Shaw doesn't consider there to be a difference between the Horde and the Old Horde, though quests like Stay of Execution make me skeptical that this is the case, but there is a difference between blaming elements of the Horde and thinking the Horde shares full culpability for the actions of the Old Horde. For example, Saurfang was a member of the Old Horde and fought for them, and Shaw considering Saurfang partially responsible for the actions of the Old Horde would be reasonable. However, if Shaw considered Thrall, who is not a member of the Old Horde, responsible for their actions, that would be unreasonable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    So you get lied to by a master and told that a technologically superior race that your people already witnessed blowing to smithereens a race your people tried and failed to beat is out to annihilate you. Then you get told "Wait, there's still hope! Drink this stuff and you'll be strong enough to protect your people!" You drink, and get mind controlled into a violent murderous lunatic who's helpless to stop himself from annihilating entire peoples. You're beaten and locked away in a camp where the bloodlust finally burns out. Yeah, you're totally not a victim.
    The Orcs took Blood of Mannoroth because they had been convinced that the Draenei, who at this point had taken no hostile actions against them, were planning to attack. They were not required to drink the Blood of Mannoroth, but Grommash convinced the Orcs to do so, seemingly because he enjoyed being under its effect. They then committed an unprovoked genocide against the Draenei. Then, when presented with a portal to Azeroth, decided to invade because the Humans seemed weak, and let their bloodlust overwhelm them.

    "Hey guys, I know we committed a genocide on a peaceful people, and attempted to wipe out the Humans and their allies multiple times, but that wasn't our fault. It was the fault of the 50ft tall demon who offered us his blood, which we drank willingly for power to fight an enemy we had no evidence held any ill will towards us. It's also not our fault when we did things like make the path of glory, which is a testament to our genocide. I swear, we're not violent, the drugs just make us that way." - Basically Orcs
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  6. #266
    Scarab Lord Gamevizier's Avatar
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    taking in Gnomes.


    I mean, I can't imagine anything more heinous than that.

  7. #267
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Yes they are the same. Just because some left and others joined doesn't make it a different organisation. Blizzard themselves since Vanilla has consistently stated it is the same organization. What makes you right that they are different and word of god wrong?
    Except they're not, and Blizzard has been very clear on this. The Alliance was preceded by the Alliance of Lordaeron, which included the human kingdoms of the Eastern Kingdoms. The Alliance, as it currently stands, doesn't have the same territories, doesn't have the same leadership, doesn't have the same people (i.e.: races, demographics), and doesn't have the same policies (Internment Camps vs. Allow Orcish autonomy after Garrosh). But hell, if we want to act like the Alliance carries the small amount of baggage that the Alliance of Lordaeron had, let's load the baggage left from the Old Horde onto the modern Horde, just to be fair.
    (This is significantly worse for one of the factions. Hint: It's the one that has committed multiple genocides on a global scale and was only stopped because of the Alliance of Lordaeron.)
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    Those orcs never surrendered nor gave any indication that they would. And when your war cry is litteraly Victory or Death and that you lose... well, you die.
    Rell Nightwind said otherwise.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Trolls and elves are not the same species in any shape or form. The troll variations look different because they were all situated in different areas, thus physically adapting to their environment. Also, cavemen are not considered primitive lifeforms. They are a primitive RACE. If trolls had evolved from another race, that would have been stated in the lore. Since there is no mention of it, that means they didn't evolve from another race and would evolved from surrounding fauna. The Well of Eternity basically caused whatever species there was around it to skip thousands of years of evolution to become the trolls.
    They are not the same species but from the same evolutionary line. And that doesn't change the fact that elementals, titan forged, and shit came before trolls. And unless you own Blizzard your feelings on what deserves to be considered a "race" doesn't matter nor does it change the fact that trolls slaughtered and stole their way to the lands they had.

    Also the lore says that trolls were one of the first evolved from the well of eternity not the first. How many of those lifeforms did they wipe out as well when conquering the world? And we have no idea how the well mutated things, you are assuming too much from 3 lines of text. Also not every fish, frog, raccoon turned into a troll thats not how evolution works in rl and in game otherwise elves woulda came from more stuff than a tribe of trolls that stayed near the well too long. And actually now that I think about it then if you are correct in the way the well worked and just had raccoons and frogs shitting out troll babies then that would mean elves are the same species as trolls just physically adapting to their environment like you said about the other troll races.


    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    So. You found a city. You live in it for thousands of years. Your people are routinely on its ruling council. And some girl with less than four decades to her says that you and your entire race are no longer welcome in a city you build and that only exists because of your people. Why? Because one person sided with someone she didn't like and therefore you're all guilty. Imagine all the Founding Fathers are still alive with their whole extended families, great grandchildren and all. One of the great grandchildren does something bad. So the Army goes around rounding up everyone and telling them to leave America or be killed.

    Also, I have no idea what you're trying to say about Talanji? How was Blizz lazy? She was already an incredibly powerful loa priestess when we first met her. She didn't go rags to riches in a few storylines like Yrel did.

    How many of those elves actually founded the city or lived in the city for thousands of years? And it wasn't an entire race that was going to get kicked out, it was only the ones who chose to side with the Horde and be called blood elves. All those Silver Covenant members were just fine.

    Also it was more than one person and they sided with a guy who nuked Theramore. If someone is slaughtering innocents and trying to wipe races off the face of the planet and you side with them of course people are going to be suspicious of you. And we have no idea how long the blood elf ban would have lasted.

    Talanji came out of nowhere had a powerful person with visions of the future as a teacher who then died (same as Yrel except Zul was evil and velen wasn't), has a strong tie to the light, and had an older better family member die for them. The only difference between the two is that Yrel was turned into a space Nazi to give a reason for mag'har to exist. And so Talanjis dad went from bad ass god king to inept and senile ruler with a single expansion.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-05-20 at 04:19 AM.

  10. #270
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Except they're not, and Blizzard has been very clear on this. The Alliance was preceded by the Alliance of Lordaeron, which included the human kingdoms of the Eastern Kingdoms. The Alliance, as it currently stands, doesn't have the same territories, doesn't have the same leadership, doesn't have the same people (i.e.: races, demographics), and doesn't have the same policies (Internment Camps vs. Allow Orcish autonomy after Garrosh). But hell, if we want to act like the Alliance carries the small amount of baggage that the Alliance of Lordaeron had, let's load the baggage left from the Old Horde onto the modern Horde, just to be fair.
    (This is significantly worse for one of the factions. Hint: It's the one that has committed multiple genocides on a global scale and was only stopped because of the Alliance of Lordaeron.)
    It's the same Alliance according to the WoW manual:
    The noble humans of Stormwind are a proud, tenacious race. They bravely fought the orcish Horde for generations as the patrons of the Grand Alliance.
    [...]
    Nearly four years later, the defenders of Stormwind stand vigilant against any who would threaten the sanctity of their lands. Situated in the foothills of Elwynn Forest, Stormwind City is one of the last bastions of human power in the world. The child-king Anduin Wrynn rules the people of Stormwind, who remain steadfast in their commitment to the Grand Alliance. Backed by their stalwart allies, the armies of Stormwind have been called away to once again fight the savage Horde on distant battlefields. With the armies gone, the defense of Stormwind now falls to its proud citizens.

    --World of Warcraft Manual, p. 168

    Even so, when the orcs invaded Azeroth and set out to conquer the human, elven, and dwarven lands, the dwarves offered to join the Grand Alliance.
    [...]
    An integral part of the Grand Alliance, the rugged dwarven armies have been called away to battle the merciless Horde in faraway lands. In these perilous times, the defense of the mountain kingdom falls to brave dwarves like you. The spirits of the dwarven kings watch over you, and the very mountains are your strength. The future of your people is in your hands.

    --World of Warcraft Manual, p. 170

    It's the same Alliance according to Genn, Tyrande, and Varian.
    “It’s about the summit, Archdruid.”
    “Of course. Gilneas is one of the most prominent reasons I sought to bring it to fruition. Your people’s admission to the Alliance is—”
    Re-admission, you mean,” the king growled with much bitterness.

    --Wolfheart, p. 140

    Tyrande, touching her husband’s hand, took command of events again. “You have witnessed the might of Gilneas and heard its request to enter back into the Alliance!”
    --Wolfheart, p.332

    Varian says: “As I’ve already said to many, I find nothing worthy, nothing honorable, in this pack of hounds . . . and so I will never vote aye to their admission back into the fold!”
    --Wolfheart, p. 337

    It's the same Alliance according to Metzen himself:
    Originally Posted by Chris Metzen
    The various cultures of Azeroth, who were never fast friends. There was no love lost between them. They had no common heritage. They had no common history. They really didn't like each other down the stretch of years. But in the face of this onslaught—in response to these badass orc leaders—they came together. And they founded a union based on honor and righteousness. And a deep seeded drive to dispense indiscriminate justice upon those who threatened their homelands. This Alliance saved the world. Alliance, do you remember who you are!? YOU ARE THE ALLIANCE OF LORDAERON! Champions of justice and I love you for it. (Source)

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    They are not the same species but from the same evolutionary line. And that doesn't change the fact that elementals, titan forged, and shit came before trolls. And unless you own Blizzard your feelings on what deserves to be considered a "race" doesn't matter nor does it change the fact that trolls slaughtered and stole their way to the lands they had.

    Also the lore says that trolls were one of the first evolved from the well of eternity not the first. How many of those lifeforms did they wipe out as well when conquering the world? And we have no idea how the well mutated things, you are assuming too much from 3 lines of text. Also not every fish, frog, raccoon turned into a troll thats not how evolution works in rl and in game otherwise elves woulda came from more stuff than a tribe of trolls that stayed near the well too long. And actually now that I think about it then if you are correct in the way the well worked and just had raccoons and frogs shitting out troll babies then that would mean elves are the same species as trolls just physically adapting to their environment like you said about the other troll races.





    How many of those elves actually founded the city or lived in the city for thousands of years? And it wasn't an entire race that was going to get kicked out, it was only the ones who chose to side with the Horde and be called blood elves. All those Silver Covenant members were just fine.

    Also it was more than one person and they sided with a guy who nuked Theramore. If someone is slaughtering innocents and trying to wipe races off the face of the planet and you side with them of course people are going to be suspicious of you. And we have no idea how long the blood elf ban would have lasted.

    Talanji came out of nowhere had a powerful person with visions of the future as a teacher who then died (same as Yrel except Zul was evil and velen wasn't), has a strong tie to the light, and had an older better family member die for them. The only difference between the two is that Yrel was turned into a space Nazi to give a reason for mag'har to exist. And so Talanjis dad went from bad ass god king to inept and senile ruler with a single expansion.
    Just like how humans IRL aren't apes, the elves aren't trolls. There is no 100% information regarding how the trolls came to be but the information given points to them evolving the same way humans did in the real world. As for all your other points, that is completely irrelevant. Just because the trolls might have a violent past doesn't mean they deserve genocide by other races that were invading THEIR lands.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Just like how humans IRL aren't apes, the elves aren't trolls. There is no 100% information regarding how the trolls came to be but the information given points to them evolving the same way humans did in the real world. As for all your other points, that is completely irrelevant. Just because the trolls might have a violent past doesn't mean they deserve genocide by other races that were invading THEIR lands.
    If they evolved the same way humans did then there would def be a proto troll. Also humans can't breed with apes. Trolls and elves can.

    Land they took. Thats what I'm trying to get you to understand. I never once said they deserved genocide. Everyone's "land" was someone else's before they got it. But if you're ok with how the trolls got it then you should be ok with the humans too.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Budong View Post
    Rell Nightwind said otherwise.
    Well, Rell's a weakling - and honestly the whole Alliance team is absolutely horrible in Jade Forest. I don't think I ever met more eye-rolling "major" zone NPC like them...

  14. #274
    Burning vulperas

    But its like everyone ignores this. But lose their minds over a dumb tree

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    If they evolved the same way humans did then there would def be a proto troll. Also humans can't breed with apes. Trolls and elves can.

    Land they took. Thats what I'm trying to get you to understand. I never once said they deserved genocide. Everyone's "land" was someone else's before they got it. But if you're ok with how the trolls got it then you should be ok with the humans too.
    they didn't take the land. before the trolls lived in that section of the Eastern Kingdoms, nobody lived there. So they can't take the land if there is nobody to take it from. The only thing they'd take the land from is the local wildlife. So....yeah. I'm ok with how the trolls got it because unlike humans and elves, they didn't kill the native races of those lands in order to get it.

  16. #276
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Just like how humans IRL aren't apes, the elves aren't trolls.
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Also humans can't breed with apes.
    Humans are apes IRL.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Taukra Goundin View Post
    *CinemaSins laugh*Hahahahahahahahaha. *inhales* Hahahahaha. You're seriously joking, right. You can't be serious and think the Alliance has never done anything wrong.
    It hasn't, everything that is questionable or even possibly evil can be be written off as rogue or non Alliance affiliated characters. The Alliance itself is squeaky clean thanks to the writers, meanwhile the Horde will continue to be written as baby eating, puppy clubbing, kitten punting, baby seal punching monsters. I mean Hell, they blame the orcs for allowing themselves to be corrupted by Kil'jaeden the Deceiver. The Eredar are a completely different species to Draenei, thatt last bit is sarcasm but I have met people who believe this.
    Retail sucks. Classic sucks. No positivity, only negative feedback. Why is everybody so damn miserable? Must be somebody else's fault, it couldn't possibly be my INSANELY TOXIC ATTITUDE.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post
    Vareesa's quest text makes it clear that his crime is trying to withdraw his own assets from the bank, which she seems to view as theft since "He relinquished whatever funds he left in the bank when he and his Sunreaver kind betrayed us."

    And with the other civilians its even more explicit: the quest text says "Most shopkeepers in the Magus Commerce Exchange have sided with the Silver Covenant, but there remain a few holdouts that must be taken care of.". They are Blood Elf shopkeepers whose crime is to refuse to side with the Silver Covenant as they are herded into prison. Nice.
    The shopkeepers are all powerful mages, so the term "civilian" is kinda stretched, Vareesa even warns you of them. Also while you quoted some quest texts to make your point you quite left out those that counter it clearly: "Jaina will have sent the reasonable ones to the Violet Hold. The rest refuse to leave, raising their weapons against us", "Compliant Sunreavers will be sent to the Violet Hold."

    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post
    Nothing forced Jaina to purge the entire civilian Blood Elf population from her city, killing those who refused to abandon their homes which they had lived in since before she was even born. If she was worried about the Sunreavers aiding Garrosh she could have arrested their leaders and placed the city under martial law, while maintaining that any ordinary Blood Elf civilians wishing to remain in their homes could do so. In fact had she done so the Blood Elves would likely be in the Alliance now.
    Very likely that is what she would have done. Before Threramore. But she had only weeks before seen what Garrosh does with a powerful weapon and so has the world. Aethas had a choice who to defy. His mistake was thinking that Jaina was still the mellow peacekeeper after her town got nuked and thus he figured she would not be too dangerous in her anger. His mistake. Had he defied Garrosh then the Kirin Tor could have stood together against the Warchief, but he was too afraid of what that madman might do. He made the choice, the blood is just as much on his hands as it is on Jainas.
    She just removed traitors from her organisation. Did she get some innocents there? Sure. But how was she supposed to tell? Maybe it was one Sunreaver maybe it was all of them, they would need to be interrogated, which is pretty hard when they try to attack you with fireballs and swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post
    None of this excuses Garrosh or Aethas of course, but I never said they had clean hands. Only that Jaina's actions are ultimately her own and there are other ways to resolve treachery than "purge everyone with the same ethnicity as the traitor".

    Generally speaking its not considered morally good to take revenge on a civilian population for an action taken by a minority- again in the real world we have countless examples of pogroms and persecutions against ethnic groups deemed to be "enemies" by their neighbours and its not usually acceptable to say that they deserved to be driven from their homes even if there were a few traitors in their midst.
    The difference is that in this case we know it is true. Some Sunreavers DID help Garrosh aquire a WMD, Aethas DID not report it. These are not rumors and lies. Of course Jaina's actions are her own and she is torturing herself for them, but her choices were limited. Even martial law as you say would not keep a group of mages from helping the insane Warchief in secret.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post
    I made no mention of equivalence with the Horde, I was merely answering the OP's question. The purge is morally wrong since it was an act of driving a largely peaceful civilian population from their homes by force solely because a small minority of them had broken the law. I don't see how that can be disputed without falling into moral relativism.
    The problem is the missing cooperation. This "peaceful civilian population" was harboring people that supplied extremly dangerous weapons to a madman and no one was alerting the authorities. How was Jaina supposed to know who was in on it and who wasn't? Was she to risk trusting that the others were not corrupt and just leave them be only to be taken advantage of? How many could have died because of the Bell? How many would die the next time a few Sunreavers helped Garrosh? No, Jaina had to take action to prevent much larger atrocities then this Purge. Aethas did not leave her a choice in the matter.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Theoris View Post
    If you want to get technical, I suppose it does fall under genocide (putting military casualty aside).

    However, that's not an apt comparison since those humans weren't under Thrall's command prior to that engagement, and were hostiles trying to kill or capture him from the get-go.

    Garithos unfairly imprisoned the blood elves - his allies - just so he could execute them.
    Or I dont need to get technical. Genocide is when you try to exterminate the entire population down to the civilians. Annihilating an army after a battle is not genocide.
    The Void. A force of infinite hunger. Its whispers have broken the will of dragons... and lured even the titans' own children into madness. Sages and scholars fear the Void. But we understand a truth they do not. That the Void is a power to be harnessed... to be bent by a will strong enough to command it. The Void has shaped us... changed us. But you will become its master. Wield the shadows as a weapon to save our world... and defend the Alliance!

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    note: "legally" implies an organization knowingly or sanctioning something evulz. So, say, Thrall as the boss tells Sylvanas to NOT do this thing but she does so to him not knowing, that's not really the Horde's thing. Garrosh and Theramore bombing? That was 100% legal and EVUL.

    So with that in mind, what is the most HORRIFIC thing the Alliance has done with an A-Okay from its governments?
    I think the word you are looking for here is "legitimately". Legally, as you define it, is not a proper definition, as we would be talking about breaking some law, stature or agreement. The biggest ones I can think of would be the Culling of Stratholme, and the crown of Stormwind not honoring the Masonry agreement, leading to the formation of the Defias organization. The Sunreaver purge from Dalaran was reactionary, not preemptive, so that doesn't really qualify, nor does Daelin's march against the Horde, though that one definitely skirts the line. What Arthas did in Northrend was front to back evil, but once he returned to Lordaeron and slew his own father, he was no longer a member of the Alliance, so, that one doesn't count. Garithos skirts a line for me, too. Definitely not one of the more defining members of the Alliance, and I'm not going to shed any tears that he is dead.Like it or not, most of the more heinous acts made from the Alliance was not against the Horde. One of the ones that would be more cruel to the Horde would have been the Dunholde internment camps, I suppose.
    "The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."

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