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  1. #321
    @Mehrunes

    I'm almost certain that the Alliance questing in the Southern Barrens states that Jaina only allowed the expansion here because of Garrosh's assault on Ashenvale. But it's been a long time since I quested here.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Why should he warn them? They were already at war, as the orcs broke the Alliance internment act, massacred an Alliance garrison, and hijacked Alliance ships.
    You bring this talking point in various threads, but the Orcs were never signatories to the Alliance internment act, nor were they Alliance citizens. As such they weren't in any position to break it, regardless of that one human soldier blabbering about it. Meanwhile that very same soldier mentioned how they captured an Orc leader. Who happened to be Grom. Who has never even been in an Alliance internment camp before as the Warsongs eluded capture after the Second War, meaning he wasn't an escapee like Thrall. And all of that happened before Thrall's group rescued even a single camp.


    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Amazing how that's conveniently forgotten every time there's sobbing about Daelin.
    Because there's nothing to forget. See above.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post
    Nothing forced Jaina to purge the entire civilian Blood Elf population from her city, killing those who refused to abandon their homes which they had lived in since before she was even born. If she was worried about the Sunreavers aiding Garrosh she could have arrested their leaders and placed the city under martial law, while maintaining that any ordinary Blood Elf civilians wishing to remain in their homes could do so. In fact had she done so the Blood Elves would likely be in the Alliance now.
    None of this excuses Garrosh or Aethas of course, but I never said they had clean hands. Only that Jaina's actions are ultimately her own and there are other ways to resolve treachery than "purge everyone with the same ethnicity as the traitor".

    Generally speaking its not considered morally good to take revenge on a civilian population for an action taken by a minority- again in the real world we have countless examples of pogroms and persecutions against ethnic groups deemed to be "enemies" by their neighbours and its not usually acceptable to say that they deserved to be driven from their homes even if there were a few traitors in their midst.
    Not to mention that Jaina didn't actually have any evidence whatsoever. All she had was a portal at the gates of Darnassus connecting to Dalaran. And she jumped from there to Sunreavers on nothing more than her prejudice. Nor was she actually interested in seeking the guilty party.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Had Jaina sat on her ass in Dalaran instead of violating its neutrality by aiding Darnassus, she'd have been in the position to spot a giant bell being transported through her city. And you accidentally left the part of Aethas being blackmailed by Garrosh with the fate of all non-Sunreaver agents that didn't have the safety of Dalaran protecting them from his reach.
    Well, we both know that you are completely resitant to counter-arguments that do not paint the Alliance in the worst possible light, so I am likely wasting my time, but alas, I'll just write for the other people in the thread.

    What Jaina did was making sure that this new WMD was kept from a genocidal madman. The Alliance had no none zero zilch intention of using it. Garrosh had proven that he was completely willing of wiping cities of the map. So Jaina was not taking sides, she was protecting every living being on the planet by making sure that thing would not be used.
    Of course you will never agree, but most reasonable people would say that you do not have to take sides to prevent an insane person from aquiring a nuke.

    The blackmail is so ridiculous that it did not deserve mention. Even if Garrosh could go through with this, he would have turned the Belfs directly against him, sending them right back into the arms of the Alliance that was already in negotiations anyway. That Aethas did not realize how stupid that threat is, does not absolve him.
    He could even have warned Lorthemar of this plot and talked how to proceed. I am quite certain the Belfs would not have looked kindly on the Warchief threatening their lifes. He could have easily evacuated the few Belfs in Silvermoon to Dalaran with a few portals in minutes before Garrosh even learned that his blackmail failed. He would have had the full support of the Kirin Tor including Jaina.
    That he allowed himself to be intimidated by such an empty threat and allowed a WMD to fall into Garroshs hand because of that is just foolish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    She made a mockery of it first. And yes, that's precisely what she was supposed to do because that's what neutrality entails.
    No, what you are talking about is apathy not neutrality. The Kirin Tor are protectors of Azeroth and keeping that thing away from Garrosh is absolutely fullfilling that purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Except the Horde "atrocity" here that was followed by Alliance was a theft.
    Obviously the atrocity is what would have happened after the theft, because everyone knew that Garrosh would be using the bell with no regard for how many civilians would die because if it. Supplying a known mass murderer with a nuke is a crime that is a bit more serious then theft. But you know that of course. You just decide that it does not matter if it is the Horde doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    You don't say. You blew some minds right here. Especially in light of some other examples having been given by the time you made this post.
    Yawn. Such wit. I am wounded.
    Last edited by Raisei; 2020-05-20 at 12:39 PM.

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    The Murder of Rastakhan was entirely unnecessary. He was the one person keeping the Zandalari out of the war. By killing him it assured the full might of the Zandalari would be thrown into the war. Whats more Trolls take blood feuds to new levels killing Rastakhan who was popular among all tribes ensured a blood debt that can last thousands of years. Had they just destroyed the navy and left the Alliance would have been way better off.
    Just because something is dumb doesn't make it a war crime.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    We're talking about actions sanctioned by the government, AKA "legal" actions, as outlined in the title. Garithos was a warlord, who threw together a militia and called it "The New Alliance". He was acting under no authority other than himself, was not reporting his actions to, nor was he taking orders from, the actual Alliance leadership (what remained of it was in Stormwind and Ironforge)... Like Arthas purging Stratholme, Garithos' actions were not sanctioned by the Alliance governing body.
    Except Garithos was the leader because of chain of comman, i.e. he was the highest ranking Alliance commander left. And his position was recognized by all surviving Alliance member states who all provided him with reinforcements.


    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    That instance during Cata is not canon, it occurred due to a miscommunication between quest makers, the person who designed the Stonetalon quests wasn't on the same page as everyone else, he wanted to take Garrosh in one direction, and the rest of the team took him in another... Him doing that was out of character for him even during Cata.
    They didn't say it's not canon. They only said it's a fuck-up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Thestrawman View Post
    3 times. After the second war, after MoP, and BFA.
    Yeah... and Azeroth would have fallen in the Third War.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    It would be nice of blizzard to explain how the AoL became the grand alliance, they just say it sort of does. I guess the imputation is that the AoL never really ended and once Lordaeron fully fell the dwarves and gnomes just rocked up to stormwind and told the Wrynn's they were the alliance now.

    I mean at least with Thrall you have to story of doomhammer making him warchief and giving him the doomhammer to establish de jure continuity.
    That is indeed the case. Also, that topic is actually covered by the summary of storyline on WoW's official page: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/st...ine/chapter-06 It's just a sliver, but still.


    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    As big of a betrayal as when Thrall's forces started cutting down all trees in Ashenvale, the same forest they fought to protect with their Kaldorei allies during the Third War?
    Yes, Daelin's attack was totally as big of a betrayal as Orcs cutting trees...


    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    The leadership is almost entirely different. They are the same organization really in name only.

    Alterac betrayed the Alliance during the second war, they don't exist anymore.

    Gilneas left the AoL (lul) before the internment camps happened (though they left because Genn disagreed, and would have rather executed them all for their warcrimes).

    Stormwind was in ruins, and it's King and Queen were dead, Varian was living in Lordaeron at the time, as a child, he had no say in anything.

    Ironforge was in the AoL, lead by Magni, but I'm not really sure he had any say in it? There's no lore regarding that.

    Admiral Daelin Proudmoore, the leader of Kul Tiras died at Theramore before the GA was formed.

    Lordaeron, as we know, fell, it's King dead.
    The leadership of the EU shifts entirely every few years. Does that mean the EU periodically ceases to exist only to be succeeded by a new organization that's the EU in name only? Member states leaving means nothing, a part of their sovereignty allows them to leave international organizations if they so please. And just after Daelin died Kul Tiras reached out to the Alliance to help them avenge his death and the Alliance told them no. So it looks like they already existed when he died.


    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Maybe you could try not mixing in game and out knowledge? Let's pretend for a second that you're one of the Alliance of Lordaeron's leaders right after the Horde's defeat.

    A bloodthirsty horde of alien monsters, each as strong as three men, just massacred its way up an entire continent. It burned every city, town or village in its path, and killed everyone it could find. Worse yet, this horde reeks of demonic energies and is filled with mages wielding demonic powers (i.e. warlocks), long known to the most senior mages as a terrible, corrupting force that destroys everything it touches. Through a miracle, this horde gets stopped.

    Now you, as a leader, are responsible for what to do with this, the worst threat your people have ever faced. You'd have to be out of your damned mind to simply let them walk away, as you have NO guarantee they won't rest up and come back to finish the job and they were barely stopped this time. If you even know about the Dark Portal, shoving them through it and closing it isn't really an option, what's stopping them from reopening it? (Remember, you and most of the Alliance have NO idea how the hell they even got here.)

    That leaves two options, killing them all so they cannot resume gleefully massacring your people again, or imprisonment. There's no good choice here. (Kind of Metzen's point, actually.) If you can think of another option, by all means, suggest it. But you know what? I don't think you can do this thought exercise. You'll rave about me "excusing enslavement" or some other absurd charge and screech about Alliance fanbois (completely oblivious to your own Horde fanboi status), rather than answer this in good faith.
    WTF are you even talking about? The Alliance knew about the Dark Portal (and humans knew about it already during the First War). They had Khadgar seal it just after the Second War ended (without yet knowing about the link itself being permanent) to prevent more Orcs from coming and constructed Nethergarde near it just in case. It's not @TheRevenantHero mixing in-game levels of knowledge with the players' knowledge, it's you mixing any knowledge with your lack of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    They killed ppl too. Warsong Gulch is a battleground, after all.
    You mean the battleground that happened because of the issue over trees escalating? Trying to conflate that with your initial point of the trees being cut in the first place isn't an argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    So you expected the soldiers to start a mutiny as soon as the general gave out signs of being crazy?

    The Horde did even worse when their generals were controlled by the Sha. They were kidnapping children and planning to use them for nefarious warlock rituals.
    The thread is about the Alliance. Your Horde whataboutism is meaningless here. It's also not a defense of a completely unrelated Alliance action in general.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    The Alliance of Lordaeron helped the quel'dorei genocide the forest trolls in the Troll Wars.
    The Alliance was created almost 3000 years after the Troll Wars.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Actually the leadership of the High Elves are now all Blood Elves, apart from the dead ones, so all the things the High Elf leadership did is on the Blood Elves and the Forsaken because of ex-Ranger General Sylvanas.
    But there's no "apart from the dead ones" here. Both the Sunstrider dynasty and the Convocation of Silvermoon are dead. The current leader is a former second-in-command to Sylvanas who was selected as regent long after the things @sam86 was talking about took place (and also after the race was renamed to Blood Elves, meaning he's never been a leader back during High Elves days).


    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    Two times. The Alliance is too weak to defeat the Horde after BFA. They didn't even have enough troops to launch more than one attack on Org WITH the Horde helping. By comparison the Darkspear launched several attacks on the gates during the Siege of Orgrimmar.
    The Darkspears were also the most insignificant members of the Horde sans maybe the Taunka and their attack took place before the Blood Elves and Forsaken fleets arrived at the scene. MoP still ended with Alliance making nothing but empty threats, yet ceding land to the Horde. The victors don't typically cede land. Alliance lost. The Darkspear Rebellion merely allowed them a way to survive the war they started, yet had been losing utterly for nearly three years until that lifeline appeared.


    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Wrong. As the Leader of the Kirin Tor (stated by Blizzard), she had every right to do that.
    It's quite telling that the claim here that you supported with "stated by Blizzard" was the one about her being the leader, not the one about her having every right to do that. Why you did that when @Nathreim wasn't even questioning Jaina being the leader of the Council is unknown though. Not that it changes anything because your claim that was not stated by Blizzard is flat out wrong. Jaina had no right to act alone. As shown in Tides of War, the leader of the Council of Six has so little individual power they don't even have a tie-breaking vote during the Council's meetings. It's almost as if there's a reason why the Purge was executed by Vereesa's (who has never had any position of power in Dalaran) private militia and Stormwind soldiers rather than the Kirin Tor...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The leadership of the EU shifts entirely every few years. Does that mean the EU periodically ceases to exist only to be succeeded by a new organization that's the EU in name only? Member states leaving means nothing, a part of their sovereignty allows them to leave international organizations if they so please. And just after Daelin died Kul Tiras reached out to the Alliance to help them avenge his death and the Alliance told them no. So it looks like they already existed when he died.
    I mean I can understand people questioning it. Given in this analogy half the EU left, then Germany got destroyed by the undead and Italy somehow nuked itself without anyone noticing then Spain randomly declared its empire is reborn and took over the EU and also Brazil joined while no one was watching.

    This is why I wish there was a more detailed explanation of how the alliance rebounded after the third war. Everything was terrible and heaps of people died just somehow becomes everything is fine also here are some night elves.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Just Jaina

    Was also justified

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    Despite me getting labelled as an Alliance fanboy costantly, Theramore was justified. It simply was - you can't expect to be taken seriously if you try to argue otherwise

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    Don't bother, this guy genuinely believes the Orcs bringing demons to Azeroth (and essentially starting up most of the bad things in Warcarft) is the fault of the Draenei because they didn't let themselves get exterminated
    So... Theramore was justified, because it just was. Take it from you. Well, you're objectively wrong, and since you added nothing except "that's that", I have nothing further to say, because you essentially said nothing.
    "The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    The purge of Dalaran wasn't a purge. The Alliance only attacked those that refused to leave and attacked them first. It even shows Jaiana teleporting people not slaughtering them.
    Jaina literally starts this whole thing by saying that in light of Aethas' refusal to leave the city with the rest of Sunreavers she'd remove them by force. And just because Jaina herself was teleporting people doesn't mean the High Elves goons she let loose on the city didn't kill anyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    And as we see later on Aethas did know about the theft and did nothing to stop it. He broke his ties to Dalaran first by siding with Garrosh.
    Aethas was blackmailed with the fate of the Blood Elves not residing in Dalaran. And it's Jaina who broke her ties to Dalaran first by siding with Darnassus against the Horde.


    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    The murder of Rastakhan falls entirely on the hands of Talanji. Blizzard was too lazy and had to give her the Yrel treatment to lvl her up by killing off ppl for her. Plus the Zandalari had already attacked both the Alliance and Horde. The Zandalari shouldn't expect to do something like that then pull a horde and have no consequences for it.
    Zul's forces did. And as was revealed before the attack on Dazar'alor, Zul was a traitor working for the Old Gods.


    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Lets not forget that the creatures in those camps are one of the few non demon races known to rape. It's easy to understand how some of the humans running those camps may have seen them as evil beings not worthy of compassion.
    So according to you humans in Warcraft haven't discovered the concept of rape? Never mind that the head of the very internment camps you're defending with Orcs' "unusual" inclination to rape was forcing Taretha to be his mistress. Seriously, what on earth...


    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    And you gotta remember that all the BFA stuff is happening after the Horde showed they are willing to wipe out the Alliance entirely and nearly did so to the Night Elves when they destroyed half a dozen or more cities and slaughtered nearly everyone. The fact that the Alliance didn't go more extreme than letting some void elves do some somewhat possibly shady shit is a testament to their character.
    And before that Legion happened, where Alliance showed that they are perfectly fine jeopardizing the war against the Legion and risking the fate of the entire cosmos just to start shit with the Horde. Just like they previously did during the war against the Scourge. Except this time it was so bad the Horde and Alliance couldn't even lead the charge against the Legion, which is why we needed the Class Orders to pick up the slack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Talrath View Post
    With theramore I disagree, through theramore the Alliance was expanding into the barrens and other places, it was definitely an act of agression. But considering that garrosh went into ashenvale, the Alliance expansion into the was justified but it was still an aggressive move that made garrosh act.

    I agree that Garrosh is a tool, Always doing something before thinking about it but that is perfect for the horde lore. Garrosh keeps doing stupid stuff for the entire horde and making peace between the two faction impossible. I know i know, the guy up already said that the druid academy quest wasnt cannon cuz blizzard was retarded in checking things, but I actually like that part. The lessons he learned from saurfang in Northrend and even though he was still quite not controllable because of his young age, the writers could have made him mature because of leadership and be less violent and more calculating. But nope they killed him in the MoP.
    The real question is, what happened first. It was my understanding that Ashenvale's invasion happened first, and the road to the Barrens happened afterward, because that was the only way to advance forces. But those roads were built on the authority of King Varian Wrynn, not Jaina Proudmoore. She didn't approve of using those roads, or her city as a port, and that was why she wanted to go to the table and try to alleviate tensions between the Alliance and the Horde, and was going to assemble members from both factions to set up peace talks. Before those could happen, Theramore was bombed, not the roads, and the port. The civilians of Theramore. Jaina should have told Kalec and Thrall to fuck themselves and destroy Orgrimmar, personally.
    "The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by vilememory View Post
    The Alliance has never done anything wrong in its entire history either legal or illegal.
    They did slaughter innocents at Camp Turajo.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    If Theramore was a terrorist attack then so was Dazar'alor. Theramore was the Alliance's largest naval installation. It was 100% a valid military target.
    1. No, it was not the largest naval installation. The largest one, and the only place on Azeroth with a dry-dock system used to create battleships and the like was in Stormwind.
    2. Dazar'alor was a military target. The Rastakhan dynasty allowed the Horde access to their cities, their warships (which had already fired on, and destroyed several ships in the fleet, mind you), and had attempted to use Derek Proudmoore as a weapon against the Proudmoores before Baine's intervention. THAT puts you in the crosshairs. What doesn't put someone in the crosshairs is being a port city that is a trader post, a fishing village, and home to an otherwise sympathetic human in the middle of the Horde and Alliance conflict. A military target has a specific military objective. Theramore was the home to many civilians, a security force that was more inline against the ogres and the Defias than the Horde, and the home to a person who wanted more than anything to reestablish good measures between the Horde and Alliance. And, the port itself was not destroyed, nor was the roads leading into the Barrens. THOSE would have been military targets, but no, let's kill all the innocents in the city to send a bloody message to the Alliance and then wonder why Jaina goes all monkey fuck against the Horde....
    "The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."

  14. #334
    And yet another thread has been hopelessly derailed and turned into a shitshow by the Horde's PR department. Requesting a lock.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  15. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Horde encroaching on their land (I assume you're talking about vanilla-cata)... Should they not defend their borders?
    The peons were also cutting down the nelfs' allies homes, so they weren't civilians. They were in fact committing warcrimes themselves, and if we're being all Geneva Conventions about this, they weren't in uniform, etc., and so were illegal combatants (like spies) and the Alliance could do whatever the heck they liked to them because they don't come under the rules for soldiers.

    You mean the same miners who had the Horde PC kill spies that were, by the miner's own admission, doing nothing other than "skulking around", in neutral territory, where they had just as much right to be as the miners? We don't know which one of those quests happened first, but if the Horde one happened first the Alliance were justified... And given that the miners only said the spies were "skulking around", and made no mention of any of their people being killed, I'll happily wager that the Horde quest happened first.
    The miners also attack the player, while in neutral territory. That makes it self-defence if you wait for them to aggro onto you before offing them.

  16. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Yeah, privileged humans - nobility - that didn't live through what the Orcs did, whether it be the invasion or the destruction of homes and families, found it inhumane. Quite frankly, Jaina judging what people who suffered through the invasions is, simply, irrelevant; people who didn't live through what the Orcs did, or are unable to understand their perspectives, have no merit in their comments.

    The fact is that the Orcs who weren't fighting in the armies, when they came through, wanted to found their new home on the corpses of dead Humans, Gnomes, and Dwarves. Whether they were a part of the army is entire irrelevant, if your actions, either explicitly or implicitly, support the army that is causing a genocide, you share culpability in that genocide. I should also note, for people giving them the benefit of the doubt: we know that this isn't the first time the Orcs even committed a genocide. This is the exact same group that tried to exterminate the Draenei, and yet people still want to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's insane.

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    I don't know if Shaw doesn't consider there to be a difference between the Horde and the Old Horde, though quests like Stay of Execution make me skeptical that this is the case, but there is a difference between blaming elements of the Horde and thinking the Horde shares full culpability for the actions of the Old Horde. For example, Saurfang was a member of the Old Horde and fought for them, and Shaw considering Saurfang partially responsible for the actions of the Old Horde would be reasonable. However, if Shaw considered Thrall, who is not a member of the Old Horde, responsible for their actions, that would be unreasonable.

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    The Orcs took Blood of Mannoroth because they had been convinced that the Draenei, who at this point had taken no hostile actions against them, were planning to attack. They were not required to drink the Blood of Mannoroth, but Grommash convinced the Orcs to do so, seemingly because he enjoyed being under its effect. They then committed an unprovoked genocide against the Draenei. Then, when presented with a portal to Azeroth, decided to invade because the Humans seemed weak, and let their bloodlust overwhelm them.

    "Hey guys, I know we committed a genocide on a peaceful people, and attempted to wipe out the Humans and their allies multiple times, but that wasn't our fault. It was the fault of the 50ft tall demon who offered us his blood, which we drank willingly for power to fight an enemy we had no evidence held any ill will towards us. It's also not our fault when we did things like make the path of glory, which is a testament to our genocide. I swear, we're not violent, the drugs just make us that way." - Basically Orcs
    TBF the Orcs were honorable before the blood.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Jaina herself disagrees with that stance, Theramore was a marshal city, very much involved in the conflict, was its total eradication over the top? Most definitely, but it was a valid target nonetheless.
    How much military planning experience do you have? Horde levels, I suspect. Ok, one more time from the top. Let's assume we have a military base near a city. Let's assume you are a military strategist, and you need the operations of this military base to cease operations. You could A. Attack the base, itself, and make a direct strike against that military outpost, or B. You could strike the city, and kill many people who are the families of the people on the military base, but most of them have nothing to do with the military base, or if they do, it is on a humanitarian level, like food delivery, utilities, and waste disposal, and not on a military level. You only have one mana bomb, so you can't hit both. What do you do? And to make things even more clear, one of these options is hitting a military target. The other is an act of terrorism. Do you see the difference, yet?

    The idea that Jaina disagrees with her own stance seems a bit like dividing by zero. Before the bomb hit her city, she tried on multiple occasions to bring the Horde and Alliance to the table for peace talks. She let her father die at the hands of Rexxar because she believed what HE was doing was wrong. Don't sit there and tell me Theramore was on even remotely the same field as Stormwind was. That's an insult to my intelligence.
    "The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."

  18. #338
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    Being a generic, boring fantasy faction with generic boring values, and no real depth or complexity.

    This is why the horde has had civil war several times because it's more versatile in its society, which is a bit more believable then a faction that looks like a child drew races around the world holding hands
    #boycottchina

  19. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Also, just to keep things in perspective:



    Picture should be updated with Astranaar, Teldrassil, Brennadam, etc.
    IT's what happens when you insist that your leader be the 'Warchief'. Any sensible
    Warchief knows that without wars, there's no need for one. The rest of the Horde finally seems to have worked this one out, about the time that the Alliance has decided that a single 'High King' is a great idea.

  20. #340
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    Annnnnnnddddd we are now fully into finger pointing mode. GG thread topic, lasted 17 pages. That's 7 more than I thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Also, just to keep things in perspective:



    Picture should be updated with Astranaar, Teldrassil, Brennadam, etc.
    This cracks me up every time I see it
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

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