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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    Killing Rastakhan? And invading Dazar'alor
    Rastakhan was offered a chance to surrender, but he refused. Dazar'alor was harboring Horde forces that were launching attacks on Kul'tiras, so it seemed a legitimate target (by the same logic that Theramore was a legitimate target).

    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    Not fully on topic but as a more or less only Horde Player I'll give my two cents about my one of the reason for dislike the alliance.

    Simple answer; Theramore. They build a fortified settlment on the boundary of native Horde lands. Use it as a staging ground to invade said lands. Then act like its destruction is somehow evil. The fact writers of wow don't realise that Thermores destruction was perfectly validly just because the ineffectual leader of the city failed to enforce her pacifist ideals.

    Imagine that in a real life situation. If china settled a island of the coast of American and turned it into a forfited military staging ground. It would be considered a vaild target.
    At the time of its founding, Theramore was home to all of the surviving forces of the Alliance (with the Burning Legion having already ravaged northern Eastern Kingdoms at the time). Theramore was founded alongside Durotar; it wasn't alongside native Horde lands when the Horde hadn't settled there yet. I think Theramore remained a valid target for attack, but its construction was very different than China creating a colony alongside a pre-existing nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Josyel View Post
    Dont you love how Alliance fanboys just forgot and deleted all records of the almighty nazi Hitler alliance general Garithos?
    Garithos was bad, but I would say Daelin was far worse. Garithos left his allies to die; Daelin outright attacked them. If Garithos hadn't done what he had done, Blood Elves might be Alliance. If Daelin hadn't done what he did, there might not even be separate factions.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Rastakhan was offered a chance to surrender, but he refused. Dazar'alor was harboring Horde forces that were launching attacks on Kul'tiras, so it seemed a legitimate target (by the same logic that Theramore was a legitimate target)..
    Quote Originally Posted by Leyre View Post
    OP asked for evil stuff, not greatest
    Okay okay… The mass-murder and burning of trolls in their own land by humans and elves. Ah yes, that's why I hate elves

    I don't really read Lore books so sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Rustedsaint View Post
    The Zandalar were already attacking the alliance/kul tirans before they invaded dazaralor if we take into account the assaults.
    What went wrong there is that they tried to get him to surrender then backed off when they had the advantage(seriously that was fucken dumb, it’s like if on D day when the Americans took that beach they decided to get back on their boats and sail back to America).
    It's hard to get a King to surrender when he has his Death God buddy with him. But honestly, BfA's writing is a mess
    Last edited by Bwonsamdi the Dead; 2020-05-19 at 04:26 PM.

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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    If we're counting all historical acts done by the "Alliance," then I'd say the war with the Amani. If we're going only after the start of the WC games (i.e. Alliance of Lordaeron in WC2), then I'd say Daelin's sailing across the ocean to seize control of Theramore and attempt to exterminate, with no warning, the people with whom Theramore had peace. If we're limiting this to only the Grand Alliance, then the Stonespire would probably be it (though I admit that I wasn't even aware of that until reading this thread).
    Why should he warn them? They were already at war, as the orcs broke the Alliance internment act, massacred an Alliance garrison, and hijacked Alliance ships.
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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Talrath View Post
    my opinion the best one, but in MoP they just ruined him. In cataclysme you can see that he condemns the bombing of a druidisme academy and kills the general for it.
    That was the one time he was out of character though.
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    Actually, Alliance side the guy at the bank is said to try and rob it before high-tailing. And I think the others are also depicted as kind of shady ? I need to do this questline again...
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    It is explicitly said that we are only killing those that have taken up arms and try to kill us, twice. Jaina has already teleported anyone away that did not attack.
    Vareesa's quest text makes it clear that his crime is trying to withdraw his own assets from the bank, which she seems to view as theft since "He relinquished whatever funds he left in the bank when he and his Sunreaver kind betrayed us."

    And with the other civilians its even more explicit: the quest text says "Most shopkeepers in the Magus Commerce Exchange have sided with the Silver Covenant, but there remain a few holdouts that must be taken care of.". They are Blood Elf shopkeepers whose crime is to refuse to side with the Silver Covenant as they are herded into prison. Nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    1) It's not an ethnic group.
    2) They were offered the chance to leave the city peacefully. In spite of overwhelming odds against him, Aethas refused to listen to Jaina. He is equally guilty for whoever died in that Purge.
    The Sunreavers encompass all of the Blood Elves in Dalaran, the vast majority of whom are civilians and many of whom had lived in the city since before the Third War. The purge did not simply target the military or political leadership but drove out the entire Blood Elven population as a whole- that is to say the entire population of ethnic Blood Elves from their homes. So yes it was definitely an action against an ethnic group.

    And thats no excuse- even if it were accomplished solely by threats of violence rather than actual violence its still morally wrong to drive out an entire ethnic group from their homes just because a few of them are criminals. The Blood Elves of Dalaran weren't visiting ambassadors- they were a largely civilian population that had lived in the city for centuries, it was their home as much as it is the home of the Dalaran High Elves and its eminently unjust to just demand they leave it.

    Many real-life purges were also preceded by demands from the authorities that the victims leave, but that doesn't make events like the expulsion of the Moors from Spain or the expulsion of the Jews from large parts of medieval Europe suddenly moral or justified, because it was wrong for them to have been demanded to leave in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    And well, it might be Jaina and the Alliance doing the purging in the end, but who is responsible for it?
    1) Garrosh for abusing the Kirin Tor's neutrality to transport his new WMD
    2) Aethas for knowing this and not alerting the rest of the Kirin Tor, despite very well knowing what Garrosh did with the last WMD he got his hands on.

    Was Jaina supposed to just ignore this direct threat to thousands of lifes because of Dalarans neutrality? Was she supposed to sit by while the Horde made a mockery of said neutrality? Patiently waiting for the next bomb to blow up? I guess the Horde playerbase would love that.
    It's the old song, the Horde just wants to see the Alliance on the same level they are at, while it is quite clear that all offensive action of the Alliance follows some or another atrocity the Horde commited.
    Nothing forced Jaina to purge the entire civilian Blood Elf population from her city, killing those who refused to abandon their homes which they had lived in since before she was even born. If she was worried about the Sunreavers aiding Garrosh she could have arrested their leaders and placed the city under martial law, while maintaining that any ordinary Blood Elf civilians wishing to remain in their homes could do so. In fact had she done so the Blood Elves would likely be in the Alliance now.
    None of this excuses Garrosh or Aethas of course, but I never said they had clean hands. Only that Jaina's actions are ultimately her own and there are other ways to resolve treachery than "purge everyone with the same ethnicity as the traitor".

    Generally speaking its not considered morally good to take revenge on a civilian population for an action taken by a minority- again in the real world we have countless examples of pogroms and persecutions against ethnic groups deemed to be "enemies" by their neighbours and its not usually acceptable to say that they deserved to be driven from their homes even if there were a few traitors in their midst.

    I made no mention of equivalence with the Horde, I was merely answering the OP's question. The purge is morally wrong since it was an act of driving a largely peaceful civilian population from their homes by force solely because a small minority of them had broken the law. I don't see how that can be disputed without falling into moral relativism.
    Last edited by Tharivor; 2020-05-19 at 04:55 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Why should he warn them? They were already at war, as the orcs broke the Alliance internment act, massacred an Alliance garrison, and hijacked Alliance ships.
    Amazing how that's conveniently forgotten every time there's sobbing about Daelin.
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  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by StaeleAilar View Post
    Were any of these sanctioned by the leadership of the alliance though?

    I'm not sure about the goblin ships one (genuinely don't know, but i know it happened), Purge of Dalaran was by Jaina and Vereesa's factions within the Kirin Tor (and supposedly happened at a time where Varian was trying to bring the Belves back to the alliance - therefore i don't know that this would count as being sanctioned by the leaders either).
    As for Turajo, unless im mistaken, didn't most of them die to the quillboar or whatever when they ran towards RFK, after the alliance soldiers were told to create gaps for the civilians to run through?

    Technically all of the actions are bad, but im really not sure any of them were sanctioned by anyone speaking for the alliance.
    The Alliance knew about shooting the innocent goblin ships and didn't care. Jaina and Vereesa are part of the Alliance and were never punished by the Alliance for their actions. As for Taurajo, no. If you go there in game, you can see numerous dead civilians in the burning town.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Camp Taurajo is fair, but the internment camps, other than not having been done by the current Alliance (pre-Warcraft 3 and WoW Alliance are not the same)
    Yes they are the same. Just because some left and others joined doesn't make it a different organisation. Blizzard themselves since Vanilla has consistently stated it is the same organization. What makes you right that they are different and word of god wrong?

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josyel View Post
    Dont you love how Alliance fanboys just forgot and deleted all records of the almighty nazi Hitler alliance general Garithos?
    We're talking about actions sanctioned by the government, AKA "legal" actions, as outlined in the title. Garithos was a warlord, who threw together a militia and called it "The New Alliance". He was acting under no authority other than himself, was not reporting his actions to, nor was he taking orders from, the actual Alliance leadership (what remained of it was in Stormwind and Ironforge)... Like Arthas purging Stratholme, Garithos' actions were not sanctioned by the Alliance governing body.
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  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiza View Post
    They were not an ethnic group though, but a political organization as well as a militia allied with a militaristic fantasy-fascist regime, who commited treason by supporting an enemy of the state they were living. Not to forget that we are trying about a population which one time conned humans into summoning the burning legion on Azeroth and afterwards tried to do it themselves. I mean, the Blood Elves have kind of a culture of terrorism which dates back to the days after the sundering, when they commited acts of terrorism against the new night elf nation. I mean, yeah, if a shop keeper who is also a member of a known and hostile terrorist organization barricades himself into his shop and attacks authorities who are entering it, they get killed.
    I would consider the Blood Elves a distinct ethnic group, though you can use the term race if you prefer (though I think thats more tricky since that doesn't distinguish them from the few remaining unchanged High Elves). And most of the Sunreaver Blood Elves of Dalaran were civilians who had lived in the city as citizens peacefully for centuries. It was only a few individuals who violated the neutrality, and even if you want to blame the leadership for turning a blind eye that still doesn't justify driving ordinary people from their homes.

    I'm not going to comment on the "Blood Elves tried to con humans into the Legion" silliness. If you want to go down that road I'm sure you're aware that applies equally to the Silver Covenant High Elves who actually committed the purge, and in any case that act of teaching the humans magic is the entire story of the founding of Dalaran. Purging the Blood Elves from Dalaran for the crime of founding Dalaran is a lore-mess that even Blizzard wouldn't touch.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talrath View Post
    Cataclysme garrosh was in my opinion the best one, but in MoP they just ruined him. In cataclysme you can see that he condemns the bombing of a druidisme academy and kills the general for it.
    That instance during Cata is not canon, it occurred due to a miscommunication between quest makers, the person who designed the Stonetalon quests wasn't on the same page as everyone else, he wanted to take Garrosh in one direction, and the rest of the team took him in another... Him doing that was out of character for him even during Cata.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2020-05-19 at 05:03 PM.
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  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post
    Vareesa's quest text makes it clear that his crime is trying to withdraw his own assets from the bank, which she seems to view as theft since "He relinquished whatever funds he left in the bank when he and his Sunreaver kind betrayed us."

    And with the other civilians its even more explicit: the quest text says "Most shopkeepers in the Magus Commerce Exchange have sided with the Silver Covenant, but there remain a few holdouts that must be taken care of.". They are Blood Elf shopkeepers whose crime is to refuse to side with the Silver Covenant as they are herded into prison. Nice.



    The Sunreavers encompass all of the Blood Elves in Dalaran, the vast majority of whom are civilians and many of whom had lived in the city since before the Third War. The purge did not simply target the military or political leadership but drove out the entire Blood Elven population as a whole- that is to say the entire population of ethnic Blood Elves from their homes. So yes it was definitely an action against an ethnic group.

    And thats no excuse- even if it were accomplished solely by threats of violence rather than actual violence its still morally wrong to drive out an entire ethnic group from their homes just because a few of them are criminals. The Blood Elves of Dalaran weren't visiting ambassadors- they were a largely civilian population that had lived in the city for centuries, it was their home as much as it is the home of the Dalaran High Elves and its eminently unjust to just demand they leave it.

    Many real-life purges were also preceded by demands from the authorities that the victims leave, but that doesn't make events like the expulsion of the Moors from Spain or the expulsion of the Jews from large parts of medieval Europe suddenly moral or justified, because it was wrong for them to have been demanded to leave in the first place.



    Nothing forced Jaina to purge the entire civilian Blood Elf population from her city, killing those who refused to abandon their homes which they had lived in since before she was even born. If she was worried about the Sunreavers aiding Garrosh she could have arrested their leaders and placed the city under martial law, while maintaining that any ordinary Blood Elf civilians wishing to remain in their homes could do so. In fact had she done so the Blood Elves would likely be in the Alliance now.
    None of this excuses Garrosh or Aethas of course, but I never said they had clean hands. Only that Jaina's actions are ultimately her own and there are other ways to resolve treachery than "purge everyone with the same ethnicity as the traitor".

    Generally speaking its not considered morally good to take revenge on a civilian population for an action taken by a minority- again in the real world we have countless examples of pogroms and persecutions against ethnic groups deemed to be "enemies" by their neighbours and its not usually acceptable to say that they deserved to be driven from their homes even if there were a few traitors in their midst.

    I made no mention of equivalence with the Horde, I was merely answering the OP's question. The purge is morally wrong since it was an act of driving a largely peaceful civilian population from their homes by force solely because a small minority of them had broken the law. I don't see how that can be disputed without falling into moral relativism.
    It's not an ethnic group as it is not comprised only of blood elves. There are no "Sunreavers customs, traditions, etc.", it's literally just a political affiliation.

    It's also morally wrong to support a bloodthirsty Warchief who has no problem committing genocide, yet you aren't pointing fingers at the Sunreavers.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    What are you talking about? Varian spared Garrosh's life so he could stand trial. Anduin hat literally nothing to do with this.
    hes not TOOTTTALLY wrong. he did stop sylvanas and veressa from poisoning garrosh before the trial XD.
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  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Josyel View Post
    Dont you love how Alliance fanboys just forgot and deleted all records of the almighty nazi Hitler alliance general Garithos?
    This was not state sanctioned. Also, if you have grievances with how Laurderon behaved, take it up with your local Warchief as Laurderon is Horde. Any heinous act committed by Laurderon against the Horde, sanctioned or not, is a Horde problem as Laurderon committed them and is part of the Horde. The people that caused those actions in life are now part of the Horde in undeath -- you can literally have a trial against them for past deeds if the Horde ever sees fit. This is not an Alliance problem what-so-ever.

    Also, Blood Elves are part of the Horde too. If they have a problem with how Laurderon treated them in WC3, they can also take it up with their local Warchief as this also has nothing to do with the Alliance.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    The Alliance knew about shooting the innocent goblin ships and didn't care. Jaina and Vereesa are part of the Alliance and were never punished by the Alliance for their actions. As for Taurajo, no. If you go there in game, you can see numerous dead civilians in the burning town.
    nope. Jaina did the purge as the leader of the kirin tor. There is actual dialogue where Varian, the leader of the alliance, is pissed at her for it. So, not sanctioned thus not applicable.

    Veressa follows Jainas lead and is part of the silver convenant.
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  16. #116
    Uhh...the entirety of the lore of World of Warcraft? Did we forget about the Highborne Night Elves being so drunk with power that they literally summoned Sargeras and the Burning Legion to Azeroth? Which further progressed to Medivh being possessed, which allowed the summoning of Orcs to Azeroth, who tried to chop trees to make their new home habitable but were then shot at by the Night Elves for chopping down their trees?

    Had the Night Elves not brought the Legion to Azeroth's doorstep, Orcs wouldn't be here, Arthas wouldn't have had to cull Stratholme and become the Lich King, sending the High Elves (a.k.a. Sunreavers/Blood Elves) on a suicide mission to quell the undead/Outland, etc.

    The biggest EVIL was their hubris and conceit. All of the events that happened in WoW happened because an Alliance leader became full of him/herself (Daelin, Garithos, Aedelas etc.)
    Last edited by Ekis; 2020-05-19 at 05:53 PM.

  17. #117
    Having allowed the Horde to survive multiple times and each time it leading to mass slaughtering/raping/destruction at the hands of the people they've spared.

    This makes the Alliance leadership also responsible for their own civilian deaths. If you let a rabid dog run free because you don't have the heart to put it down, whoever that dog kills is blood on your hands.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Rastakhan was offered a chance to surrender, but he refused. Dazar'alor was harboring Horde forces that were launching attacks on Kul'tiras, so it seemed a legitimate target (by the same logic that Theramore was a legitimate target).



    At the time of its founding, Theramore was home to all of the surviving forces of the Alliance (with the Burning Legion having already ravaged northern Eastern Kingdoms at the time). Theramore was founded alongside Durotar; it wasn't alongside native Horde lands when the Horde hadn't settled there yet. I think Theramore remained a valid target for attack, but its construction was very different than China creating a colony alongside a pre-existing nation.



    Garithos was bad, but I would say Daelin was far worse. Garithos left his allies to die; Daelin outright attacked them. If Garithos hadn't done what he had done, Blood Elves might be Alliance. If Daelin hadn't done what he did, there might not even be separate factions.
    Fair, the china military base comparison is quite hamfisted. But if you ignore theramores construction and just take it as a becomes an military outpost. I think its not bad example at getting why the Horde needed to destory it by the time of MOP.
    Last edited by WonderZebra; 2020-05-19 at 05:46 PM.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    And was going to kill the player (who was one of the whistleblowers) as part of the cover-up. His anger wasn't about the action being wrong, so much as about it making him and 'his' Horde look bad.

    And then, during the invasion of the Twilight Highlands (whose inhabitants hadn't done anything to justify being invaded at the time) he was okay with one of his bodyguards smacking his senior admiral for giving advance Garrosh didn't agree with. Then Garrosh's actions nearly got him killed and did get his fleet wrecked and most of his soldiers and sailors killed. Did he in any way admit he'd made a mistake? Nope. Frankly, treating a high-status Goblin like that, and not paying them off after, he's lucky he didn't die to a knife in the back long before the events of Siege of Orgrimmar.
    But thats the embodiment of the horde. They rush in yelling, FOR THE HORDE! He did exactly that so he fits the profile.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    That was the one time he was out of character though.
    there was also that moment in northrend where saurfang lectured him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    That instance during Cata is not canon, it occurred due to a miscommunication between quest makers, the person who designed the Stonetalon quests wasn't on the same page as everyone else, he wanted to take Garrosh in one direction, and the rest of the team took him in another... Him doing that was out of character for him even during Cata.
    What, really? So basically blizzard just left it like that, tha hell.
    But it was a nice touch seeing him do that, cuz I thought that he learned something of the speech of saurfang with '' honor, never forsake it''

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Why should he warn them? They were already at war, as the orcs broke the Alliance internment act, massacred an Alliance garrison, and hijacked Alliance ships.
    It's one thing to attack military targets without warning. It's another to massacre villages. While Daelin saw the orcs as a threat that had escaped internment, the orcs saw some of their recent allies drawing arms and killing them all. Not a single orc survived to tell what had happened from those attacks, which is why it took so long for Jaina and Thrall to realize what had happened.

    I'm not saying Daelin's actions were illogical, particularly given the information he had, but the post was about the worst thing someone has done legally, not the worst thing they had done knowingly. From the perspective of all other people on Kalimdor, this was a betrayal of a peace established just before the Battle of Mount Hyjal.

    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    Fair, the china military base comparison is quite hamfisted. But if you ignore theramores construction and just take it as a becomes an military outpost. I think its not bad example at getting why the Horde needed to destory it by the time of MOP.
    Oh, it was definitely a military and strategic target. For me, personally, the travesty of Theramore is 1) it seemed mostly unprovoked (I hadn't leveled through the Barrens zones in Cata, so I hadn't really seen much of that story from either perspective, and the scenario doesn't really make mention of it) and 2) the amount of force used (i.e. the mana bomb) seemed excessive. I also mained Horde through Cataclysm and MoP, so for me, the events surrounding Theramore were that it offered Baine a place of sanctuary during Magatha's coup in the intro book to Cata, and then the Horde bombed it a year or two later in the intro scenario to MoP.

    I recognize that the numbered points above are opinions and can understand the other side, so I don't seek to persuade anyone or argue that people should change perspective. I just wanted to share one reaction to Theramore and why I felt the way I did about it.

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