What's the most EVIL or heinous thing the Alliance has legally done?

[Sharby]

Wasn't the torture and burning of Vulpera legally sanctioned?

The Alliance technically aren't even at war with the Vulpera considering there's a pet battle WQ literally right next to their Hideaway.

[vitor210]

Letting the horde live after all the things they've done since Warcraft 1

[Hellobolis]

Kobolds openly attack anyone who isn't them, invade and take control over mines that aren't theirs... Far as I'm aware they started the hostilities and continue to be hostile.

Quilboars are openly murderously hostile towards everything that isn't them and they raid settlements on the regular... Seems like they kinda brought that war upon themselves, just like the Kobolds did.

who knows how it started. probably just conflict over resources/land/safety when the human population started to grow.

but by now that's been going on for so long (centuries i'd say) that it's more turned into playing with your food. the horde/alliance clearly have the ability to find a permanent solution to a lot these conflicts, peaceful or otherwise, but for some reason choose not to.

it's a bit of an unfortunate situation from the horde/alliance perspective though. these species are obviously sentient, but also obviously not on the same level as humans/orcs. guess in azeroth that makes you open game, but if you reason like that then you also can't consider e.g. the legions goals as evil.

[Aresk]

Necromancy is 100% outlawed by the Kirin Tor but the Alliance totally lets the void elves conduct necromancy over in Zandalar. An exceptionally evil act that the Alliance is totally on board with.

Are the void elves operating under the Kirin Tor? I was pretty sure they were independent, having come from Silvermoon and being brought into the Alliance by Alleria. As far as I know, the Alliance at large has never had laws banning necromancy. Bonus: this means the Void Elves acts on Zandalar are considered legal for purposes of this thread.

[Schattenlied]

it's a bit of an unfortunate situation from the horde/alliance perspective though. these species are obviously sentient, but also obviously not on the same level as humans/orcs.

Which means that diplomatic solutions may be entirely impossible... They may be incapable of comprehending it.

but if you reason like that then you also can't consider e.g. the legions goals as evil.

Yeah you can... The Legion are killing innocent bystanders in their conflict with the Void... Their end goal of stopping the void may be "good" but their method of accomplishing that goal, destroying the entire universe, cannot be anything other than evil.

[Hellobolis]

Which means that diplomatic solutions may be entirely impossible... They may be incapable of comprehending it.

so then go all the way with the genocide and let it be done with. plenty of places where that's feasible. not all the lesser sentients literally come out of the ground.

Yeah you can... The Legion are killing innocent bystanders in their conflict with the Void... Their end goal of stopping the void may be "good" but their method of accomplishing that goal, destroying the entire universe, cannot be anything other than evil.

if its okay to kill a kobold because he is inferior to you, then you can't really blame a demon for thinking you are inferior either.

[Schattenlied]

so then go all the way with the genocide and let it be done with.





if its okay to kill a kobold because he is inferior to you, then you can't really blame a demon for thinking you are inferior either.

They aren't killing kobolds and quilboar because they are "inferior", they are killing them because they are openly hostile towards the Horde and Alliance. Big difference.

[Feanoro]

That's utterly irrelevant. Saying that enslavement is somehow a good thing because the other alleged option is genocide is absolutely ridiculous.

Maybe you could try not mixing in game and out knowledge? Let's pretend for a second that you're one of the Alliance of Lordaeron's leaders right after the Horde's defeat.

A bloodthirsty horde of alien monsters, each as strong as three men, just massacred its way up an entire continent. It burned every city, town or village in its path, and killed everyone it could find. Worse yet, this horde reeks of demonic energies and is filled with mages wielding demonic powers (i.e. warlocks), long known to the most senior mages as a terrible, corrupting force that destroys everything it touches. Through a miracle, this horde gets stopped.

Now you, as a leader, are responsible for what to do with this, the worst threat your people have ever faced. You'd have to be out of your damned mind to simply let them walk away, as you have NO guarantee they won't rest up and come back to finish the job and they were barely stopped this time. If you even know about the Dark Portal, shoving them through it and closing it isn't really an option, what's stopping them from reopening it? (Remember, you and most of the Alliance have NO idea how the hell they even got here.)

That leaves two options, killing them all so they cannot resume gleefully massacring your people again, or imprisonment. There's no good choice here. (Kind of Metzen's point, actually.) If you can think of another option, by all means, suggest it. But you know what? I don't think you can do this thought exercise. You'll rave about me "excusing enslavement" or some other absurd charge and screech about Alliance fanbois (completely oblivious to your own Horde fanboi status), rather than answer this in good faith.

Necromancy is 100% outlawed by the Kirin Tor but the Alliance totally lets the void elves conduct necromancy over in Zandalar. An exceptionally evil act that the Alliance is totally on board with.

1) Show us where the dead dinosaurs' spirits were ripped out of the afterlife and bound to those bones, since that's Warcraft's definition of necromancy. You can't because they used the void to animate them. 2) Glad you agree necromancy is evil. I expect your vocal support in condemning Sylvanas and the Forsaken for enthusiastically practicing it.

[Hellobolis]

They aren't killing kobolds and quilboar because they are "inferior", they are killing them because they are openly hostile towards the Horde and Alliance.

they aren't just killing them. that's the point. it's gone way past necessity at this point.

[Sharby]

Also this thread is most likely gonna' turn into a 'Alliance fanboys never wanna' admit to evil' circlejerk so I'll just say that the reason no one is conceding to your accusations is because 'Alliance wrongs' are usually very overblown or just misconstrued to appear worse than they are.



The fact is that its extremely rare for the Alliance to do evil shit. Gotta' cope with that.

[Schattenlied]

they aren't just killing them. that's the point. it's gone way past necessity at this point.

Got any proof of that? From what I can tell we only ever go after them when they are posing some kind of active threat.

[Manariel]

That's utterly irrelevant. Saying that enslavement is somehow a good thing because the other alleged option is genocide is absolutely ridiculous.

- - - Updated - - -

Necromancy is 100% outlawed by the Kirin Tor but the Alliance totally lets the void elves conduct necromancy over in Zandalar. An exceptionally evil act that the Alliance is totally on board with.

Well, the Orcs had exterminated most of Stormwind's population, ravaged Khaz Modan and Stormgarde, and a rather large portion of Lordaeron. Really, there wasn't much that the Alliance could realistically do with them at that point. It was either a mass massacre of people who had lost their will to fight - and almost all willpower whatsoever - or put them in the camp. They couldn't do anything else with them, especially with the likes of Grom and his Warsongs stillw aging war left and right for years.

Also, regarding Necromancy in the Alliance :

a)the relationship of Dalaran with the Alliance is shaky at best; the most charitable take on them is that under Khadgar, they left before the Fourth War/Blood War; the less is that they are turncoats and traitors in there, so their laws shouldn't apply to the Alliance
b)Alliance and Horde allowed Death Knights into their ranks back in WotLK, knowing full well what they did
c)Umbric's use of Necromancy was always meant to be temporary because Void Necromancy seems to be more about summoning a Void entity and bounding it into a corpse rather than the straigh up usual Necromancy, as far as I understood his quests during the Assault -and is one of the few times the Alliance was indeed morally grey ! Perhaps even one of the few times something truly morally grey happened in WoW. Yeah ?
d)the Horde isn't exactly squeaky clean when it comes to this particular form of magic...

[Varodoc]

Personally, I'd say killing people is a greater betrayal than stealing lumber, though the orcs knowingly violated a peace whereas Daelin did not. Ultimately the question is moot because the thread is specifically about Alliance actions done legally, and Thrall's forces would not fall under the Alliance banner. I'd be happy to discuss that in private messages or another thread if you'd like, though!

They killed ppl too. Warsong Gulch is a battleground, after all.

[sam86]

u serious ?
Draenei : literally cause the extinction of millions of billions of life forms in their escape from BL to stay alive, knowing very well they damning everywhere they go, instead of stay and fight like their HD version literally did, heck even Dreanor they stayed for 300 years not telling orcs anything, not to mention that they look exactly like demons yet don't tell anything (most their race is pure evil eredar)
Nelf : blowing up the world, wipe out troll tribes to take over their land (ignoring the fact they evolved from trolls, they refuse it), attack orcs on sight because how dare they try to stay alive and cut trees so their kids don't die from weather effects
Gnomes : nothing i guess major, they are a joke even from alliance pov
Dwarfs : the dwarf tribe that digged tauren remains in Barrens, entire AV deal which alliance flat out admit they invading it to take it
Humans : the creme of cream, their list is massive, everything they did they see it right since they are light chosen and never do mistakes, their favorite hobby is basically attempting genocide against any race they feel weaker, that list include belfs (twice), goblins of kezan for just existing, darkspear trolls for just exist in their own home in island in middle of ocean!, forsaken for just exist, trolls of all kind to take over their lands
Ironic because high elf still kissing alliance a88 the genocide against amani trolls is on high elf hands, even if blood elf are the one living in quel'thalas, but as long high elfs insist they aren't belfs, it is on their hands

[Hellobolis]

Got any proof of that? From what I can tell we only ever go after them when they are posing some kind of active threat.

and why do they become a threat? because a permanent solution is never sought. it's active population control. now it's one thing if this happens in some heavily contested area, but in e.g. elwynn these things are entirely happening because the alliance lets them happen.

many quests word these things are routine cleanup, training for the troops, a chore/nuisance, etc.

the biggest irony is that the reason permanent solutions aren't reached is probably because that would actually make them feel like they did genocide.

(though ofc in reality it's just a gameplay > lore thing.)

[Manariel]

u serious ?
Draenei : literally cause the extinction of millions of billions of life forms in their escape from BL to stay alive, knowing very well they damning everywhere they go, instead of stay and fight like their HD version literally did, heck even Dreanor they stayed for 300 years not telling orcs anything, not to mention that they look exactly like demons yet don't tell anything (most their race is pure evil eredar)
Nelf : blowing up the world, wipe out troll tribes to take over their land (ignoring the fact they evolved from trolls, they refuse it), attack orcs on sight because how dare they try to stay alive and cut trees so their kids don't die from weather effects
Gnomes : nothing i guess major, they are a joke even from alliance pov
Dwarfs : the dwarf tribe that digged tauren remains in Barrens, entire AV deal which alliance flat out admit they invading it to take it
Humans : the creme of cream, their list is massive, everything they did they see it right since they are light chosen and never do mistakes, their favorite hobby is basically attempting genocide against any race they feel weaker, that list include belfs (twice), goblins of kezan for just existing, darkspear trolls for just exist in their own home in island in middle of ocean!, forsaken for just exist, trolls of all kind to take over their lands
Ironic because high elf still kissing alliance a88 the genocide against amani trolls is on high elf hands, even if blood elf are the one living in quel'thalas, but as long high elfs insist they aren't belfs, it is on their hands

Yeah, how dare the Draeneï not dare sacrifice themselves futily against Sargeras and the rest of their kind turned evil like the... wait a minute. Which Orcish Clan ever stood its ground against the Genocide ? None that I recall. All, even the Forstwolves, happily partook in the slaughter - and they didn't face a fallen titan hiding his true nature back then.

Also, you realize that the descendants of those who blew up the world are actually the Blood Elves (and the High and Void Elves too, by definition) ? Also, they - like humans in that regard - only did what every race in Warcraft seems to do. The Trolls didn't expand without a fight. They fought the A'qir and while they are monstrous to us, we now know that they were all more than mindless servants, but truly a civilization unto itself. Also, they atatcked the orcs because they felt the demonic corruption in them and had vowed to protect the sacred groves of Ashenvale against all threats. You can't condamn them for that if you support the troll fighting back against newcomers.

Also, what you say about the humans is, well, so wrong on so many levels...

But you're kind of spot on for the dwarves, got to admit it.

[Stormdash]

The general who ordered that was being influenced by the Sha.

The soldiers who carried it out weren't.

[Schattenlied]

and why do they become a threat? because a permanent solution is never sought. it's active population control. now it's one thing if this happens in some heavily contested area, but in e.g. elwynn these things are entirely happening because the alliance lets them happen.

many quests word these things are routine cleanup, training for the troops, a chore/nuisance, etc.

the biggest irony is that the reason permanent solutions aren't reached is probably because that would actually make them feel like they did genocide.

(though ofc in reality it's just a gameplay > lore thing.)

So, we have a situation where the Alliance and Horde are just defending their holdings against hostile incursion, and you're arguing that is somehow "evil" and equating it to "population control"...

You've lost it mate.

[Steelangel]

The Alliance has been mostly reactive throughout the lore of WoW the MMO. There's not lot of "evil" in reacting strongly to ostensibly evil things done by the Horde. I think some of the Alliance's actions in BfA could be on the "bad guy" side, as was the sack of Taurajo. Outside of that... nope.

If you go back to pre MMO, the Alliance of Lordaeron was a bit more morally grey, but never outright evil.

[Varodoc]

The soldiers who carried it out weren't.

So you expected the soldiers to start a mutiny as soon as the general gave out signs of being crazy?

The Horde did even worse when their generals were controlled by the Sha. They were kidnapping children and planning to use them for nefarious warlock rituals.