What's the most EVIL or heinous thing the Alliance has legally done?

[cparle87]

Yeah, privileged humans - nobility - that didn't live through what the Orcs did, whether it be the invasion or the destruction of homes and families, found it inhumane. Quite frankly, Jaina judging what people who suffered through the invasions is, simply, irrelevant; people who didn't live through what the Orcs did, or are unable to understand their perspectives, have no merit in their comments.

The fact is that the Orcs who weren't fighting in the armies, when they came through, wanted to found their new home on the corpses of dead Humans, Gnomes, and Dwarves. Whether they were a part of the army is entire irrelevant, if your actions, either explicitly or implicitly, support the army that is causing a genocide, you share culpability in that genocide. I should also note, for people giving them the benefit of the doubt: we know that this isn't the first time the Orcs even committed a genocide. This is the exact same group that tried to exterminate the Draenei, and yet people still want to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's insane.

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I don't know if Shaw doesn't consider there to be a difference between the Horde and the Old Horde, though quests like Stay of Execution make me skeptical that this is the case, but there is a difference between blaming elements of the Horde and thinking the Horde shares full culpability for the actions of the Old Horde. For example, Saurfang was a member of the Old Horde and fought for them, and Shaw considering Saurfang partially responsible for the actions of the Old Horde would be reasonable. However, if Shaw considered Thrall, who is not a member of the Old Horde, responsible for their actions, that would be unreasonable.

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The Orcs took Blood of Mannoroth because they had been convinced that the Draenei, who at this point had taken no hostile actions against them, were planning to attack. They were not required to drink the Blood of Mannoroth, but Grommash convinced the Orcs to do so, seemingly because he enjoyed being under its effect. They then committed an unprovoked genocide against the Draenei. Then, when presented with a portal to Azeroth, decided to invade because the Humans seemed weak, and let their bloodlust overwhelm them.

"Hey guys, I know we committed a genocide on a peaceful people, and attempted to wipe out the Humans and their allies multiple times, but that wasn't our fault. It was the fault of the 50ft tall demon who offered us his blood, which we drank willingly for power to fight an enemy we had no evidence held any ill will towards us. It's also not our fault when we did things like make the path of glory, which is a testament to our genocide. I swear, we're not violent, the drugs just make us that way." - Basically Orcs

During the questline to rescue Baine you're there with Shaw, Saurfang, Thrall, and Jaina. And Shaw flat out says he blames the modern Horde for Llane Wrynn.

Glad you totally ignored what I wrote. It doesn't matter that the draenei hadn't done anything. The orcs had already witnessed that if the draenei got the first strike there would be no orcs left. As soon as they drank the blood, they no longer had a choice. They committed the genocide because Kil'jaeden wanted revenge on the draenei in general and Velen in particular.

[Saltysquidoon]

It was founded by mages who wanted a city of their own where they could practice magic however they wanted without oversight from Arathor. Why did humans even have mages in the first place? Cause high elves taught them. Who have lived in Dalaran since the beginning. High elves. Who were often on its ruling council? High elves. It would be like if a handful of keepers of the grove did something bad so the Cenarion Circle decided to expel all keepers, dryads, and Cenarius himself from Moonglade.

The point of my post was that the high elves did not help found or live in dalaran until the humans asked them for help with demon incursions and the council of tirisfal was formed.
I mean did you even read the second paragraph of the post you're quoting?

[Raisei]

-U mean like what draenei HD did and in case u missed it, they are still alive and well when we meet them in Legion? in fact with how incompetent BL is, the chance that BL would been over if all exiled ones stood united instead majority of them run away is quite high

If you mean the Lightbound then you are obviosuly leaving out that those Draenei worked together with the Iron Horde remnants and we (Alliance and Horde) had already done the majority of the work by killing Archimonde and his troops in Tanaan.
It is laughable to think that the few Draenei led by Velen had any chance to beat the full force of the Legion, especially since halve their people and two of their most powerful leaders had turned traitor. We are talking of an army of immortal demons led by an evil GOD. Their chance was zero to come out the winners in that conflict...

-Orcs killed themselves as much as they killed Draenei, and while draenei earned it with deception and lot of innocent blood to stay alive (they have zero basis to claim they are good, just selfish), and if ur memory is bad or lore isn't good, u can check it whiteclaw for example

Deception? Innocent Blood? The Draenei were refugees. They killed no one. It is not their fault they are hunted by the omnicidal Legion. Are you routinely blaming victims for the crimes commited on them? I have seen many ways of Horde fanbois trying to drag down the Alliance to their level, but geez, you're arguments are the most dispicable I have read in a while.

- In what regard? Humans are seriously the worst, the easiest race to corrupt, it is why Neltharion toyed with them

Bwahahahah. Orcs drank demon blood three times! All three willingly and the second and third time knowing exactly what they were in for. They caused a Draenei genocide TWICE, first with demon blood, then without. They invaded Azeroth twice to wipe out all live there, TWICE, first with demon blood, then without.
You made quite the elaborate fanfiction, shame it is ridiculous in every aspect.

[Mehrunes]

When the devastation of the Scourge + Legion was tonned down a lot, it left it in a strange position. Then Blizzard did an awful work with Cataclysm + Wolfheart so that it becomes almost impossible to know who struck first.

But it's not impossible to know that. Wolfheart explicitly takes place after the Cataclysm already shattered Azeroth. The invasion of Ashenvale in general also happened after the Cataclysm (the very point of that invasion was to leverage the chaos incurred by the Cataclysm to gain the upper hand). Manwhile Theramore's random incursion into the Barrens took place just before the Cataclysm happened.

I think that the Theramore outcry comes from a) the means of its destruction and b) it was Garrosh who ordered it - and I think at that point he had already stated that he wanted to wipe out all non Hordes, at least on Kalimdor ?

Nope, that was was what Garrosh's goal shifted to after Theramore (from subjugating the Alliance). Precisely because of Theramore, in fact. Specifically the fact that, contrary to his expectations, the Horde did not fawn over him over his amazing feat. So he came to the conclusion that the Horde will never love him unequivocally and as such will never fill the Grom-shaped hole in his heart, suffered something along a mental breakdown and decided that he can just as well drown the world in blood.

[slime]

Allowed the semi-sentient horde to still exist.

[Mehrunes]

The Purge of Dalaran was undoubtedly evil, but not sanctioned by Varian so I' m not sure that counts.

Varian sent a regiment of Stormwind troops to help her out...

Not to mentioned it was retconned to Jaina teleporting people into prisons, and only killing those that fought back.

Not super heinous to me.

But that was in regards to what Jaina herself was doing. Nothing about the actions of Silver Covenant goons she let out on the city has been changed.

[cparle87]

How many of those elves actually founded the city or lived in the city for thousands of years? And it wasn't an entire race that was going to get kicked out, it was only the ones who chose to side with the Horde and be called blood elves. All those Silver Covenant members were just fine.

Also it was more than one person and they sided with a guy who nuked Theramore. If someone is slaughtering innocents and trying to wipe races off the face of the planet and you side with them of course people are going to be suspicious of you. And we have no idea how long the blood elf ban would have lasted.

Talanji came out of nowhere had a powerful person with visions of the future as a teacher who then died (same as Yrel except Zul was evil and velen wasn't), has a strong tie to the light, and had an older better family member die for them. The only difference between the two is that Yrel was turned into a space Nazi to give a reason for mag'har to exist. And so Talanjis dad went from bad ass god king to inept and senile ruler with a single expansion.

Does it matter? The high elves were the only reason the city was even founded, and lived there from day one. It's like a city with two separate aboriginal peoples living in it together. And because a handful of them did something bad, the other side decided they had to leave or die. The high/blood divide is irrelevant to the argument. They were already blood elves and hadn't even done anything the first time Dalaran tried to exterminate them.

Besides Thalen did we see ANY blood elves supporting Garrosh? All the named blood elves we know of were disgusted by Theramore and wanted nothing to do with it. Even Blizzard went out and said the most involved Aethas Sunreaver had was knowing there was going to be a robbery and not doing anything. "Hey, all you Native Americans, you're no longer allowed in America. Get out or we'll kill you. We might decide to let you back in later." Do you have any idea how wrong that is?

So your argument is that you're mad that a powerful priestess... was a powerful priestess when she was first introduced instead of having to grow from nothing in front of our eyes. Wow, someone better tell Jaina she's a bad character cause she was a powerful mage from when she was introduced. Zul was portrayed as someone Talanji disliked and distrusted from the beginning. Not sure how you got the idea he was a teacher figure to Talanji, except making it up to try to draw a paralell between her and Yrel. And finally, your comment of Rastakhan becoming inept and senile is just your opinion.

[Kalisandra]

Enslaving Pandarens in the Jade Forest, there's no indication anywhere in text that this was done without authorization or was ever punished in anyway, and it is completely unambiguous that they are being held and forced to work against their will.

I've done the Alliance lines through Jade Forest many times, and I have no recollection of this at all. Where does this happen? At the Horde end, where the Horde get to attack a major Alliance presence that Alliance players never know a thing about?

[Raisei]

Why are Alliance-leaning posters always magically forgetting that the most common result of any and all wars ever fought was forcing the defeated party to GTFO back home rather than killing them all or setting up a giant internment system for them?

And other than railing about MUH HORDE FANATICS what exactly do you have to support that notion? Khadgar deactivated the Dark Portal from Azerothian side only after the Second War ended. Nothing prevented him from doing that only after the Orcs were marched through it if that was Alliance's decision.

Yes, because after them attacking humanity TWICE already, destroying Stormwind on the second time with who knows how many victims, just sending them home with a stern talking to is a reasonable idea! They would never try a third time, would they? My god, Mehrunes,... just try a bit common sense instead of "everything the Alliance does is wrong" once in a while. They were alien invaders, allied with demons. Of course you do not just let them go so they can try again next year.

[Mehrunes]

1) It's not an ethnic group.

Since the Blood Elf-High Elf split it can be seen as one. And if not, it's a political group. And political cleansing isn't any better compared to ethnic cleansing.

2) They were offered the chance to leave the city peacefully. In spite of overwhelming odds against him, Aethas refused to listen to Jaina. He is equally guilty for whoever died in that Purge.

What "overwhelming odds"? Jaina had neither the authority nor the grounds for even the her demand for the Sunreavers to leave the city, let alone her purge.

Were any of these sanctioned by the leadership of the alliance though?

I'm not sure about the goblin ships one (genuinely don't know, but i know it happened), Purge of Dalaran was by Jaina and Vereesa's factions within the Kirin Tor (and supposedly happened at a time where Varian was trying to bring the Belves back to the alliance - therefore i don't know that this would count as being sanctioned by the leaders either).
As for Turajo, unless im mistaken, didn't most of them die to the quillboar or whatever when they ran towards RFK, after the alliance soldiers were told to create gaps for the civilians to run through?

Technically all of the actions are bad, but im really not sure any of them were sanctioned by anyone speaking for the alliance.

Varian still sent military personnel to help Jaina out with the Purge. And high ranking Alliance officers carrying out military actions against the enemy of the Horde while acting under the banner of the Alliance are kinda representative of the Alliance. It's not like any of the commanders above was even reprimanded for their actions.

They were not an ethnic group though, but a political organization as well as a militia allied with a militaristic fantasy-fascist regime, who commited treason by supporting an enemy of the state they were living. Not to forget that we are trying about a population which one time conned humans into summoning the burning legion on Azeroth and afterwards tried to do it themselves. I mean, the Blood Elves have kind of a culture of terrorism which dates back to the days after the sundering, when they commited acts of terrorism against the new night elf nation. I mean, yeah, if a shop keeper who is also a member of a known and hostile terrorist organization barricades himself into his shop and attacks authorities who are entering it, they get killed.

Vereesa's goons aren't "authorities". If you want to talk about militias, look no further than the Silver Covenant. Because unlike them the Sunreavers still had a seat in the Council of Six while Vereesa has never had any position within the power structure of Dalaran. And the rest of your post is even more nonsensical. When did Sunreavers con humans into summoning the Burning Legion to Azeroth? Never. Neither have Blood Elves in general because for some disingenuous reason you're treating both groups as the same.

The same applies to "Sunreavers" summoning the Legion themselves. Sunreavers were formed only after TBC. From Blood Elves that opposed Kael. So even if you want to badmouth Blood Elves in general that "point" still falls flat. You trying to conflate Sunreavers with the Highborne is even more ridiculous.

And looping back to the Purge, there's no "they". War Crimes flat out states there was a singular Surneaver agent working for Garrosh. And Jaina committed treason against Dalaran first by violating its neutrality when she aided the Alliance at Darnassus.

Purge was done by jaina in the name of Kirin tor. Varian never authorized it.

The Alliance doesn't work in a fashion where its members need the High King's seal of approval. Besides the High King stuff came only after the Purge. And Varian still helped Jaina out during the Purge.

It is explicitly said that we are only killing those that have taken up arms and try to kill us, twice. Jaina has already teleported anyone away that did not attack.

And well, it might be Jaina and the Alliance doing the purging in the end, but who is responsible for it?
1) Garrosh for abusing the Kirin Tor's neutrality to transport his new WMD
2) Aethas for knowing this and not alerting the rest of the Kirin Tor, despite very well knowing what Garrosh did with the last WMD he got his hands on.

Had Jaina sat on her ass in Dalaran instead of violating its neutrality by aiding Darnassus, she'd have been in the position to spot a giant bell being transported through her city. And you accidentally left the part of Aethas being blackmailed by Garrosh with the fate of all non-Sunreaver agents that didn't have the safety of Dalaran protecting them from his reach.

Was Jaina supposed to just ignore this direct threat to thousands of lifes because of Dalarans neutrality? Was she supposed to sit by while the Horde made a mockery of said neutrality? Patiently waiting for the next bomb to blow up? I guess the Horde playerbase would love that.

She made a mockery of it first. And yes, that's precisely what she was supposed to do because that's what neutrality entails.

It's the old song, the Horde just wants to see the Alliance on the same level they are at, while it is quite clear that all offensive action of the Alliance follows some or another atrocity the Horde commited.

Except the Horde "atrocity" here that was followed by Alliance was a theft.

So as for the thread title question. I guess the Stonespires count, but then that was the League of Explorers, not the Alliance. But I guess that would be nitpicking. Apart from that I cannot think of anything evil or heinous the Alliance has done.

You don't say. You blew some minds right here. Especially in light of some other examples having been given by the time you made this post.

not sure if varian was there or not,wasnt it the varian clone?either way,it was opnyxias doing and the nobles that were tricked by her

Varian disappeared only after the Third War was already over.

ah you mean the lordaeron guy of the people that are now horde?hahaha,also what he did was betray the elves,he didnt atempt MULTIPLE genosides and child burnings,nice try doe

But they weren't Horde when he did the things he did. On top of Garithos himself never joining the Horde. Or the part the Lordaeronians who'd eventually join the Horde were already undead by that point, while he led the ones that survived the Scourge and as such also never joined the Horde. This attempt at a gotcha still makes no sense.

It's the only one they got, that and tAuRajO.

Weirdly enough even though you wrote this "insightful" remark at the end of page four there have already been multiple other examples prior to that.

[Kalisandra]

u serious ?
Draenei : literally cause the extinction of millions of billions of life forms in their escape from BL to stay alive, knowing very well they damning everywhere they go, instead of stay and fight like their HD version literally did, heck even Dreanor they stayed for 300 years not telling orcs anything, not to mention that they look exactly like demons yet don't tell anything (most their race is pure evil eredar)

Good victim blaming here. I 'love' the way the Draenei get accused of 'leading' the Legion to various worlds, when the Legion isn't following them so much as casting a net, trying to find them. But here we have you, like so many others, blaming the refugees because their murderers are still trying to kill them.

Nelf : blowing up the world, wipe out troll tribes to take over their land (ignoring the fact they evolved from trolls, they refuse it), attack orcs on sight because how dare they try to stay alive and cut trees so their kids don't die from weather effects

It wasn't the Night Elves who summoned the Legion. And you're blaming them for shooting up the guys who are tearing up their homes, and the homes of their friends and allies (the sprites, the dryads, the firblogs, and so on). Wow.

Gnomes : nothing i guess major, they are a joke even from alliance pov

Gnomes gave the Alliance their submarines and flying machines. Gnomes are useful, but require someone with common sense keeping an eye on them.

Dwarfs : the dwarf tribe that digged tauren remains in Barrens, entire AV deal which alliance flat out admit they invading it to take it

Try to take it back. It's not as if the orcs have actually been there very long, now is it?

Humans : the creme of cream, their list is massive, everything they did they see it right since they are light chosen and never do mistakes, their favorite hobby is basically attempting genocide against any race they feel weaker, that list include belfs (twice), goblins of kezan for just existing, darkspear trolls for just exist in their own home in island in middle of ocean!, forsaken for just exist, trolls of all kind to take over their lands
Ironic because high elf still kissing alliance a88 the genocide against amani trolls is on high elf hands, even if blood elf are the one living in quel'thalas, but as long high elfs insist they aren't belfs, it is on their hands

And now, when it would otherwise put blood on Horde hands, you suddenly notice that there's more than one group of elves.

[Mehrunes]

Another mistake of the Alliance you pointed out. She should have just tsunami'd Orgrimmar. The elves would put some pressure to the Tauren since most orcs and trolls would have drowned and the BEs/Undead wouldn't retaliate much considering the BE were on talks with the Alliance to rejoin during that period. Sylvanas would never have that much power to start a war, commit genocide and feed souls to big daddy Satan. WoD wouldn't have happened and we wouldn't have Gul'dan bring the Legion back to Azeroth, yay?

Except for the part where we've been given information about the timeline in which Jaina did drown Orgrimmar at the end of War Crimes and in that timeline the Horde outright eradicated the Alliance. And your periods are wrong. The Blood Elves opened talks only after the events of 5.1.

Everything in the past, present and future is Anduin's fault in the zugzug world.

Yes, a poster with Uther avatar is totally a part of your "zugzug world".

At the time of its founding, Theramore was home to all of the surviving forces of the Alliance (with the Burning Legion having already ravaged northern Eastern Kingdoms at the time). Theramore was founded alongside Durotar; it wasn't alongside native Horde lands when the Horde hadn't settled there yet. I think Theramore remained a valid target for attack, but its construction was very different than China creating a colony alongside a pre-existing nation.

That is true, but what @WonderZebra has said actually aptly describes a big Alliance settlement in the area. It's just it described Northwatch rather than Theramore. And while Daelin constructing it was one thing, but Jaina - in all her "wisdom" - deciding to not only keep it but to keep it manned with the people she inherited from her father, is another. Lo and behold, it's precisely folks from Northwatch that attacked the Barrens shortly before Garrosh waltzed into Ashenvale.

Garithos was bad, but I would say Daelin was far worse. Garithos left his allies to die; Daelin outright attacked them. If Garithos hadn't done what he had done, Blood Elves might be Alliance. If Daelin hadn't done what he did, there might not even be separate factions.

But he didn't just leave them to die. He deliberately sent them on a suicide mission so that he would have an opportunity to leave them to die. Though how even that compares to Daelin's idiocy is subject to personal opinion I'd say.

[Manariel]

@Mehrunes

I'm almost certain that the Alliance questing in the Southern Barrens states that Jaina only allowed the expansion here because of Garrosh's assault on Ashenvale. But it's been a long time since I quested here.

[Mehrunes]

Why should he warn them? They were already at war, as the orcs broke the Alliance internment act, massacred an Alliance garrison, and hijacked Alliance ships.

You bring this talking point in various threads, but the Orcs were never signatories to the Alliance internment act, nor were they Alliance citizens. As such they weren't in any position to break it, regardless of that one human soldier blabbering about it. Meanwhile that very same soldier mentioned how they captured an Orc leader. Who happened to be Grom. Who has never even been in an Alliance internment camp before as the Warsongs eluded capture after the Second War, meaning he wasn't an escapee like Thrall. And all of that happened before Thrall's group rescued even a single camp.

Amazing how that's conveniently forgotten every time there's sobbing about Daelin.

Because there's nothing to forget. See above.

Nothing forced Jaina to purge the entire civilian Blood Elf population from her city, killing those who refused to abandon their homes which they had lived in since before she was even born. If she was worried about the Sunreavers aiding Garrosh she could have arrested their leaders and placed the city under martial law, while maintaining that any ordinary Blood Elf civilians wishing to remain in their homes could do so. In fact had she done so the Blood Elves would likely be in the Alliance now.
None of this excuses Garrosh or Aethas of course, but I never said they had clean hands. Only that Jaina's actions are ultimately her own and there are other ways to resolve treachery than "purge everyone with the same ethnicity as the traitor".

Generally speaking its not considered morally good to take revenge on a civilian population for an action taken by a minority- again in the real world we have countless examples of pogroms and persecutions against ethnic groups deemed to be "enemies" by their neighbours and its not usually acceptable to say that they deserved to be driven from their homes even if there were a few traitors in their midst.

Not to mention that Jaina didn't actually have any evidence whatsoever. All she had was a portal at the gates of Darnassus connecting to Dalaran. And she jumped from there to Sunreavers on nothing more than her prejudice. Nor was she actually interested in seeking the guilty party.

[Raisei]

Had Jaina sat on her ass in Dalaran instead of violating its neutrality by aiding Darnassus, she'd have been in the position to spot a giant bell being transported through her city. And you accidentally left the part of Aethas being blackmailed by Garrosh with the fate of all non-Sunreaver agents that didn't have the safety of Dalaran protecting them from his reach.

Well, we both know that you are completely resitant to counter-arguments that do not paint the Alliance in the worst possible light, so I am likely wasting my time, but alas, I'll just write for the other people in the thread.

What Jaina did was making sure that this new WMD was kept from a genocidal madman. The Alliance had no none zero zilch intention of using it. Garrosh had proven that he was completely willing of wiping cities of the map. So Jaina was not taking sides, she was protecting every living being on the planet by making sure that thing would not be used.
Of course you will never agree, but most reasonable people would say that you do not have to take sides to prevent an insane person from aquiring a nuke.

The blackmail is so ridiculous that it did not deserve mention. Even if Garrosh could go through with this, he would have turned the Belfs directly against him, sending them right back into the arms of the Alliance that was already in negotiations anyway. That Aethas did not realize how stupid that threat is, does not absolve him.
He could even have warned Lorthemar of this plot and talked how to proceed. I am quite certain the Belfs would not have looked kindly on the Warchief threatening their lifes. He could have easily evacuated the few Belfs in Silvermoon to Dalaran with a few portals in minutes before Garrosh even learned that his blackmail failed. He would have had the full support of the Kirin Tor including Jaina.
That he allowed himself to be intimidated by such an empty threat and allowed a WMD to fall into Garroshs hand because of that is just foolish.

She made a mockery of it first. And yes, that's precisely what she was supposed to do because that's what neutrality entails.

No, what you are talking about is apathy not neutrality. The Kirin Tor are protectors of Azeroth and keeping that thing away from Garrosh is absolutely fullfilling that purpose.

Except the Horde "atrocity" here that was followed by Alliance was a theft.

Obviously the atrocity is what would have happened after the theft, because everyone knew that Garrosh would be using the bell with no regard for how many civilians would die because if it. Supplying a known mass murderer with a nuke is a crime that is a bit more serious then theft. But you know that of course. You just decide that it does not matter if it is the Horde doing it.

You don't say. You blew some minds right here. Especially in light of some other examples having been given by the time you made this post.

Yawn. Such wit. I am wounded.

[Kalisandra]

The Murder of Rastakhan was entirely unnecessary. He was the one person keeping the Zandalari out of the war. By killing him it assured the full might of the Zandalari would be thrown into the war. Whats more Trolls take blood feuds to new levels killing Rastakhan who was popular among all tribes ensured a blood debt that can last thousands of years. Had they just destroyed the navy and left the Alliance would have been way better off.

Just because something is dumb doesn't make it a war crime.

[Mehrunes]

We're talking about actions sanctioned by the government, AKA "legal" actions, as outlined in the title. Garithos was a warlord, who threw together a militia and called it "The New Alliance". He was acting under no authority other than himself, was not reporting his actions to, nor was he taking orders from, the actual Alliance leadership (what remained of it was in Stormwind and Ironforge)... Like Arthas purging Stratholme, Garithos' actions were not sanctioned by the Alliance governing body.

Except Garithos was the leader because of chain of comman, i.e. he was the highest ranking Alliance commander left. And his position was recognized by all surviving Alliance member states who all provided him with reinforcements.

That instance during Cata is not canon, it occurred due to a miscommunication between quest makers, the person who designed the Stonetalon quests wasn't on the same page as everyone else, he wanted to take Garrosh in one direction, and the rest of the team took him in another... Him doing that was out of character for him even during Cata.

They didn't say it's not canon. They only said it's a fuck-up.

[Eosia]

3 times. After the second war, after MoP, and BFA.

Yeah... and Azeroth would have fallen in the Third War.

[Mehrunes]

It would be nice of blizzard to explain how the AoL became the grand alliance, they just say it sort of does. I guess the imputation is that the AoL never really ended and once Lordaeron fully fell the dwarves and gnomes just rocked up to stormwind and told the Wrynn's they were the alliance now.

I mean at least with Thrall you have to story of doomhammer making him warchief and giving him the doomhammer to establish de jure continuity.

That is indeed the case. Also, that topic is actually covered by the summary of storyline on WoW's official page: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/st...ine/chapter-06 It's just a sliver, but still.

As big of a betrayal as when Thrall's forces started cutting down all trees in Ashenvale, the same forest they fought to protect with their Kaldorei allies during the Third War?

Yes, Daelin's attack was totally as big of a betrayal as Orcs cutting trees...

The leadership is almost entirely different. They are the same organization really in name only.

Alterac betrayed the Alliance during the second war, they don't exist anymore.

Gilneas left the AoL (lul) before the internment camps happened (though they left because Genn disagreed, and would have rather executed them all for their warcrimes).

Stormwind was in ruins, and it's King and Queen were dead, Varian was living in Lordaeron at the time, as a child, he had no say in anything.

Ironforge was in the AoL, lead by Magni, but I'm not really sure he had any say in it? There's no lore regarding that.

Admiral Daelin Proudmoore, the leader of Kul Tiras died at Theramore before the GA was formed.

Lordaeron, as we know, fell, it's King dead.

The leadership of the EU shifts entirely every few years. Does that mean the EU periodically ceases to exist only to be succeeded by a new organization that's the EU in name only? Member states leaving means nothing, a part of their sovereignty allows them to leave international organizations if they so please. And just after Daelin died Kul Tiras reached out to the Alliance to help them avenge his death and the Alliance told them no. So it looks like they already existed when he died.

Maybe you could try not mixing in game and out knowledge? Let's pretend for a second that you're one of the Alliance of Lordaeron's leaders right after the Horde's defeat.

A bloodthirsty horde of alien monsters, each as strong as three men, just massacred its way up an entire continent. It burned every city, town or village in its path, and killed everyone it could find. Worse yet, this horde reeks of demonic energies and is filled with mages wielding demonic powers (i.e. warlocks), long known to the most senior mages as a terrible, corrupting force that destroys everything it touches. Through a miracle, this horde gets stopped.

Now you, as a leader, are responsible for what to do with this, the worst threat your people have ever faced. You'd have to be out of your damned mind to simply let them walk away, as you have NO guarantee they won't rest up and come back to finish the job and they were barely stopped this time. If you even know about the Dark Portal, shoving them through it and closing it isn't really an option, what's stopping them from reopening it? (Remember, you and most of the Alliance have NO idea how the hell they even got here.)

That leaves two options, killing them all so they cannot resume gleefully massacring your people again, or imprisonment. There's no good choice here. (Kind of Metzen's point, actually.) If you can think of another option, by all means, suggest it. But you know what? I don't think you can do this thought exercise. You'll rave about me "excusing enslavement" or some other absurd charge and screech about Alliance fanbois (completely oblivious to your own Horde fanboi status), rather than answer this in good faith.

WTF are you even talking about? The Alliance knew about the Dark Portal (and humans knew about it already during the First War). They had Khadgar seal it just after the Second War ended (without yet knowing about the link itself being permanent) to prevent more Orcs from coming and constructed Nethergarde near it just in case. It's not @TheRevenantHero mixing in-game levels of knowledge with the players' knowledge, it's you mixing any knowledge with your lack of it.

They killed ppl too. Warsong Gulch is a battleground, after all.

You mean the battleground that happened because of the issue over trees escalating? Trying to conflate that with your initial point of the trees being cut in the first place isn't an argument.

So you expected the soldiers to start a mutiny as soon as the general gave out signs of being crazy?

The Horde did even worse when their generals were controlled by the Sha. They were kidnapping children and planning to use them for nefarious warlock rituals.

The thread is about the Alliance. Your Horde whataboutism is meaningless here. It's also not a defense of a completely unrelated Alliance action in general.

The Alliance of Lordaeron helped the quel'dorei genocide the forest trolls in the Troll Wars.

The Alliance was created almost 3000 years after the Troll Wars.

Actually the leadership of the High Elves are now all Blood Elves, apart from the dead ones, so all the things the High Elf leadership did is on the Blood Elves and the Forsaken because of ex-Ranger General Sylvanas.

But there's no "apart from the dead ones" here. Both the Sunstrider dynasty and the Convocation of Silvermoon are dead. The current leader is a former second-in-command to Sylvanas who was selected as regent long after the things @sam86 was talking about took place (and also after the race was renamed to Blood Elves, meaning he's never been a leader back during High Elves days).

Two times. The Alliance is too weak to defeat the Horde after BFA. They didn't even have enough troops to launch more than one attack on Org WITH the Horde helping. By comparison the Darkspear launched several attacks on the gates during the Siege of Orgrimmar.

The Darkspears were also the most insignificant members of the Horde sans maybe the Taunka and their attack took place before the Blood Elves and Forsaken fleets arrived at the scene. MoP still ended with Alliance making nothing but empty threats, yet ceding land to the Horde. The victors don't typically cede land. Alliance lost. The Darkspear Rebellion merely allowed them a way to survive the war they started, yet had been losing utterly for nearly three years until that lifeline appeared.

Wrong. As the Leader of the Kirin Tor (stated by Blizzard), she had every right to do that.

It's quite telling that the claim here that you supported with "stated by Blizzard" was the one about her being the leader, not the one about her having every right to do that. Why you did that when @Nathreim wasn't even questioning Jaina being the leader of the Council is unknown though. Not that it changes anything because your claim that was not stated by Blizzard is flat out wrong. Jaina had no right to act alone. As shown in Tides of War, the leader of the Council of Six has so little individual power they don't even have a tie-breaking vote during the Council's meetings. It's almost as if there's a reason why the Purge was executed by Vereesa's (who has never had any position of power in Dalaran) private militia and Stormwind soldiers rather than the Kirin Tor...

[Saltysquidoon]

The leadership of the EU shifts entirely every few years. Does that mean the EU periodically ceases to exist only to be succeeded by a new organization that's the EU in name only? Member states leaving means nothing, a part of their sovereignty allows them to leave international organizations if they so please. And just after Daelin died Kul Tiras reached out to the Alliance to help them avenge his death and the Alliance told them no. So it looks like they already existed when he died.

I mean I can understand people questioning it. Given in this analogy half the EU left, then Germany got destroyed by the undead and Italy somehow nuked itself without anyone noticing then Spain randomly declared its empire is reborn and took over the EU and also Brazil joined while no one was watching.

This is why I wish there was a more detailed explanation of how the alliance rebounded after the third war. Everything was terrible and heaps of people died just somehow becomes everything is fine also here are some night elves.