What's the most EVIL or heinous thing the Alliance has legally done?

[Melusine]

Just Jaina

Was also justified

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Despite me getting labelled as an Alliance fanboy costantly, Theramore was justified. It simply was - you can't expect to be taken seriously if you try to argue otherwise

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Don't bother, this guy genuinely believes the Orcs bringing demons to Azeroth (and essentially starting up most of the bad things in Warcarft) is the fault of the Draenei because they didn't let themselves get exterminated

So... Theramore was justified, because it just was. Take it from you. Well, you're objectively wrong, and since you added nothing except "that's that", I have nothing further to say, because you essentially said nothing.

[Mehrunes]

The purge of Dalaran wasn't a purge. The Alliance only attacked those that refused to leave and attacked them first. It even shows Jaiana teleporting people not slaughtering them.

Jaina literally starts this whole thing by saying that in light of Aethas' refusal to leave the city with the rest of Sunreavers she'd remove them by force. And just because Jaina herself was teleporting people doesn't mean the High Elves goons she let loose on the city didn't kill anyone.

And as we see later on Aethas did know about the theft and did nothing to stop it. He broke his ties to Dalaran first by siding with Garrosh.

Aethas was blackmailed with the fate of the Blood Elves not residing in Dalaran. And it's Jaina who broke her ties to Dalaran first by siding with Darnassus against the Horde.

The murder of Rastakhan falls entirely on the hands of Talanji. Blizzard was too lazy and had to give her the Yrel treatment to lvl her up by killing off ppl for her. Plus the Zandalari had already attacked both the Alliance and Horde. The Zandalari shouldn't expect to do something like that then pull a horde and have no consequences for it.

Zul's forces did. And as was revealed before the attack on Dazar'alor, Zul was a traitor working for the Old Gods.

Lets not forget that the creatures in those camps are one of the few non demon races known to rape. It's easy to understand how some of the humans running those camps may have seen them as evil beings not worthy of compassion.

So according to you humans in Warcraft haven't discovered the concept of rape? Never mind that the head of the very internment camps you're defending with Orcs' "unusual" inclination to rape was forcing Taretha to be his mistress. Seriously, what on earth...

And you gotta remember that all the BFA stuff is happening after the Horde showed they are willing to wipe out the Alliance entirely and nearly did so to the Night Elves when they destroyed half a dozen or more cities and slaughtered nearly everyone. The fact that the Alliance didn't go more extreme than letting some void elves do some somewhat possibly shady shit is a testament to their character.

And before that Legion happened, where Alliance showed that they are perfectly fine jeopardizing the war against the Legion and risking the fate of the entire cosmos just to start shit with the Horde. Just like they previously did during the war against the Scourge. Except this time it was so bad the Horde and Alliance couldn't even lead the charge against the Legion, which is why we needed the Class Orders to pick up the slack.

[Melusine]

With theramore I disagree, through theramore the Alliance was expanding into the barrens and other places, it was definitely an act of agression. But considering that garrosh went into ashenvale, the Alliance expansion into the was justified but it was still an aggressive move that made garrosh act.

I agree that Garrosh is a tool, Always doing something before thinking about it but that is perfect for the horde lore. Garrosh keeps doing stupid stuff for the entire horde and making peace between the two faction impossible. I know i know, the guy up already said that the druid academy quest wasnt cannon cuz blizzard was retarded in checking things, but I actually like that part. The lessons he learned from saurfang in Northrend and even though he was still quite not controllable because of his young age, the writers could have made him mature because of leadership and be less violent and more calculating. But nope they killed him in the MoP.

The real question is, what happened first. It was my understanding that Ashenvale's invasion happened first, and the road to the Barrens happened afterward, because that was the only way to advance forces. But those roads were built on the authority of King Varian Wrynn, not Jaina Proudmoore. She didn't approve of using those roads, or her city as a port, and that was why she wanted to go to the table and try to alleviate tensions between the Alliance and the Horde, and was going to assemble members from both factions to set up peace talks. Before those could happen, Theramore was bombed, not the roads, and the port. The civilians of Theramore. Jaina should have told Kalec and Thrall to fuck themselves and destroy Orgrimmar, personally.

[Beefhammer]

The Alliance has never done anything wrong in its entire history either legal or illegal.

They did slaughter innocents at Camp Turajo.

[Melusine]

If Theramore was a terrorist attack then so was Dazar'alor. Theramore was the Alliance's largest naval installation. It was 100% a valid military target.

1. No, it was not the largest naval installation. The largest one, and the only place on Azeroth with a dry-dock system used to create battleships and the like was in Stormwind.
2. Dazar'alor was a military target. The Rastakhan dynasty allowed the Horde access to their cities, their warships (which had already fired on, and destroyed several ships in the fleet, mind you), and had attempted to use Derek Proudmoore as a weapon against the Proudmoores before Baine's intervention. THAT puts you in the crosshairs. What doesn't put someone in the crosshairs is being a port city that is a trader post, a fishing village, and home to an otherwise sympathetic human in the middle of the Horde and Alliance conflict. A military target has a specific military objective. Theramore was the home to many civilians, a security force that was more inline against the ogres and the Defias than the Horde, and the home to a person who wanted more than anything to reestablish good measures between the Horde and Alliance. And, the port itself was not destroyed, nor was the roads leading into the Barrens. THOSE would have been military targets, but no, let's kill all the innocents in the city to send a bloody message to the Alliance and then wonder why Jaina goes all monkey fuck against the Horde....

[Feanoro]

And yet another thread has been hopelessly derailed and turned into a shitshow by the Horde's PR department. Requesting a lock.

[Kalisandra]

Horde encroaching on their land (I assume you're talking about vanilla-cata)... Should they not defend their borders?

The peons were also cutting down the nelfs' allies homes, so they weren't civilians. They were in fact committing warcrimes themselves, and if we're being all Geneva Conventions about this, they weren't in uniform, etc., and so were illegal combatants (like spies) and the Alliance could do whatever the heck they liked to them because they don't come under the rules for soldiers.

You mean the same miners who had the Horde PC kill spies that were, by the miner's own admission, doing nothing other than "skulking around", in neutral territory, where they had just as much right to be as the miners? We don't know which one of those quests happened first, but if the Horde one happened first the Alliance were justified... And given that the miners only said the spies were "skulking around", and made no mention of any of their people being killed, I'll happily wager that the Horde quest happened first.

The miners also attack the player, while in neutral territory. That makes it self-defence if you wait for them to aggro onto you before offing them.

[Recovery]

Yeah, privileged humans - nobility - that didn't live through what the Orcs did, whether it be the invasion or the destruction of homes and families, found it inhumane. Quite frankly, Jaina judging what people who suffered through the invasions is, simply, irrelevant; people who didn't live through what the Orcs did, or are unable to understand their perspectives, have no merit in their comments.

The fact is that the Orcs who weren't fighting in the armies, when they came through, wanted to found their new home on the corpses of dead Humans, Gnomes, and Dwarves. Whether they were a part of the army is entire irrelevant, if your actions, either explicitly or implicitly, support the army that is causing a genocide, you share culpability in that genocide. I should also note, for people giving them the benefit of the doubt: we know that this isn't the first time the Orcs even committed a genocide. This is the exact same group that tried to exterminate the Draenei, and yet people still want to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's insane.

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I don't know if Shaw doesn't consider there to be a difference between the Horde and the Old Horde, though quests like Stay of Execution make me skeptical that this is the case, but there is a difference between blaming elements of the Horde and thinking the Horde shares full culpability for the actions of the Old Horde. For example, Saurfang was a member of the Old Horde and fought for them, and Shaw considering Saurfang partially responsible for the actions of the Old Horde would be reasonable. However, if Shaw considered Thrall, who is not a member of the Old Horde, responsible for their actions, that would be unreasonable.

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The Orcs took Blood of Mannoroth because they had been convinced that the Draenei, who at this point had taken no hostile actions against them, were planning to attack. They were not required to drink the Blood of Mannoroth, but Grommash convinced the Orcs to do so, seemingly because he enjoyed being under its effect. They then committed an unprovoked genocide against the Draenei. Then, when presented with a portal to Azeroth, decided to invade because the Humans seemed weak, and let their bloodlust overwhelm them.

"Hey guys, I know we committed a genocide on a peaceful people, and attempted to wipe out the Humans and their allies multiple times, but that wasn't our fault. It was the fault of the 50ft tall demon who offered us his blood, which we drank willingly for power to fight an enemy we had no evidence held any ill will towards us. It's also not our fault when we did things like make the path of glory, which is a testament to our genocide. I swear, we're not violent, the drugs just make us that way." - Basically Orcs

TBF the Orcs were honorable before the blood.

[Melusine]

Jaina herself disagrees with that stance, Theramore was a marshal city, very much involved in the conflict, was its total eradication over the top? Most definitely, but it was a valid target nonetheless.

How much military planning experience do you have? Horde levels, I suspect. Ok, one more time from the top. Let's assume we have a military base near a city. Let's assume you are a military strategist, and you need the operations of this military base to cease operations. You could A. Attack the base, itself, and make a direct strike against that military outpost, or B. You could strike the city, and kill many people who are the families of the people on the military base, but most of them have nothing to do with the military base, or if they do, it is on a humanitarian level, like food delivery, utilities, and waste disposal, and not on a military level. You only have one mana bomb, so you can't hit both. What do you do? And to make things even more clear, one of these options is hitting a military target. The other is an act of terrorism. Do you see the difference, yet?

The idea that Jaina disagrees with her own stance seems a bit like dividing by zero. Before the bomb hit her city, she tried on multiple occasions to bring the Horde and Alliance to the table for peace talks. She let her father die at the hands of Rexxar because she believed what HE was doing was wrong. Don't sit there and tell me Theramore was on even remotely the same field as Stormwind was. That's an insult to my intelligence.

[Trassk]

Being a generic, boring fantasy faction with generic boring values, and no real depth or complexity.

This is why the horde has had civil war several times because it's more versatile in its society, which is a bit more believable then a faction that looks like a child drew races around the world holding hands

[Kalisandra]

Also, just to keep things in perspective:



Picture should be updated with Astranaar, Teldrassil, Brennadam, etc.

IT's what happens when you insist that your leader be the 'Warchief'. Any sensible
Warchief knows that without wars, there's no need for one. The rest of the Horde finally seems to have worked this one out, about the time that the Alliance has decided that a single 'High King' is a great idea.

[Minikin]

Annnnnnnddddd we are now fully into finger pointing mode. GG thread topic, lasted 17 pages. That's 7 more than I thought.

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Also, just to keep things in perspective:



Picture should be updated with Astranaar, Teldrassil, Brennadam, etc.

This cracks me up every time I see it

[Varodoc]

Annnnnnnddddd we are now fully into finger pointing mode. GG thread topic, lasted 17 pages. That's 7 more than I thought.

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This cracks me up every time I see it

Your signature cracks me up every time I read it.

[Kalisandra]

Alliance of Lordaeron is the Alliance of Stormwind. Blue posts, Metzen, Chronicles, the game. They all say the same thing. There has been only 1 alliance and multiple hordes.

'Multiple Hordes' = an attempt to avoid responsibility for your behaviour back in the day. Look at the names Thrall's 'new' Horde gave its new home: 'Durotar', 'Orgrimmar', etc. Thrall bore Doomhammer, ffs. It's the same old Horde, and you can see that as soon as Thrall steps down. There's a quest where one orc talks about Thrall's way vs Garrosh's, but that's all we see of the 'old way' once Garry is in power - the vast majority of Orcs leap at the chance to go back to constant warfare, and at the chance to be on top of the Horde with every other member race subordinate to Orcs.

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Yeah, privileged humans - nobility - that didn't live through what the Orcs did, whether it be the invasion or the destruction of homes and families, found it inhumane. Quite frankly, Jaina judging what people who suffered through the invasions is, simply, irrelevant; people who didn't live through what the Orcs did, or are unable to understand their perspectives, have no merit in their comments.

The fact is that the Orcs who weren't fighting in the armies, when they came through, wanted to found their new home on the corpses of dead Humans, Gnomes, and Dwarves. Whether they were a part of the army is entire irrelevant, if your actions, either explicitly or implicitly, support the army that is causing a genocide, you share culpability in that genocide. I should also note, for people giving them the benefit of the doubt: we know that this isn't the first time the Orcs even committed a genocide. This is the exact same group that tried to exterminate the Draenei, and yet people still want to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's insane.

They didn't just commit genocide of the (then peaceful) Draenei that they'd had no previous beef with, they were proud of the fact. They called the road they made with Draenei bones the 'Path of Glory'.

The Orcs took Blood of Mannoroth because they had been convinced that the Draenei, who at this point had taken no hostile actions against them, were planning to attack. They were not required to drink the Blood of Mannoroth, but Grommash convinced the Orcs to do so, seemingly because he enjoyed being under its effect. They then committed an unprovoked genocide against the Draenei. Then, when presented with a portal to Azeroth, decided to invade because the Humans seemed weak, and let their bloodlust overwhelm them.

"Hey guys, I know we committed a genocide on a peaceful people, and attempted to wipe out the Humans and their allies multiple times, but that wasn't our fault. It was the fault of the 50ft tall demon who offered us his blood, which we drank willingly for power to fight an enemy we had no evidence held any ill will towards us. It's also not our fault when we did things like make the path of glory, which is a testament to our genocide. I swear, we're not violent, the drugs just make us that way." - Basically Orcs

Exactly. There's a profound unwillingness in the Orcish parts of the Horde to face up to their past and admit wrongdoing.

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Why are Alliance-leaning posters always magically forgetting that the most common result of any and all wars ever fought was forcing the defeated party to GTFO back home rather than killing them all or setting up a giant internment system for them?

You might want to check your history. That's a massive over-generalisation, and is simply incorrect.

[Josyel]

We're talking about actions sanctioned by the government, AKA "legal" actions, as outlined in the title. Garithos was a warlord, who threw together a militia and called it "The New Alliance". He was acting under no authority other than himself, was not reporting his actions to, nor was he taking orders from, the actual Alliance leadership (what remained of it was in Stormwind and Ironforge)... Like Arthas purging Stratholme, Garithos' actions were not sanctioned by the Alliance governing body.

Oh, no no no. You cant just say a high ranking member of the Alliance leading an Alliance army is not responsible for Alliance actions.

From wowwiki:
"Othmar Garithos was the Grand Marshal leader of remnants of the Kingdom of Lordaeron following its downfall during the Third War and also the de-facto leader of Alliance forces in Lordaeron. As such, officials from neighboring non-human states such as Ironforge and Quel’Thalas sent him aid, ignorant of his intolerant and prejudiced policies."

[Talrath]

The real question is, what happened first. It was my understanding that Ashenvale's invasion happened first, and the road to the Barrens happened afterward, because that was the only way to advance forces. But those roads were built on the authority of King Varian Wrynn, not Jaina Proudmoore. She didn't approve of using those roads, or her city as a port, and that was why she wanted to go to the table and try to alleviate tensions between the Alliance and the Horde, and was going to assemble members from both factions to set up peace talks. Before those could happen, Theramore was bombed, not the roads, and the port. The civilians of Theramore. Jaina should have told Kalec and Thrall to fuck themselves and destroy Orgrimmar, personally.

Yeah i found that very odd that she suddenly chickend out. She let the horde kill her father, she could have frozen him or something. Then the wrathgate happend, so she could have thought that horde is incompetent in keeping their people in check in these dire times. And then garrosh bombed the city and the horde laugh about it, if it were me I wouldnt have chickend out and would have washed ogrimmar away. TBH washing a large part of ogrimmar away would have been a better story, hordies will hate jaina.

[Josyel]

This thread:

1- Alliance fanbois trying to say Garithos wasnt even racist.
2- "But high ranking general X was not on Storwind lands, so its not a valid action"
3- "But, you see, in the far far future, that evil guy turned out to be horde!!!"
4- Every bad Alliance action is just military strategy.
5- Every bad Alliance action pales because Horde does baddier.

Its like trying to justify rape because a guy next to you raped and killed.

[Aquamonkey]

The problem with assuming sharing a name makes them the same thing is that it applies to both the Horde and Alliance, especially considering that these names incredibly generic.

It's more than just using the same name, the manual treats them as the same entity. It sets up the Grand Alliance as being supported by humans and dwarves for years/generations and that they all still operate as part of it by the time WoW starts.

While the Alliance has been weakened by recent events, the dwarves of Ironforge, led by King Magni Bronzebeard, are forging a new future in the world.
--World of Warcraft Manual, p. 170

The exception is gnomes. It sets them up as having supported the Grand Alliance for years, but are currently preoccupied with retaking Gnomeregan.

Over the years, the gnomes have contributed ingenious weapons to aid the Grand Alliance in its fierce battles against the Horde.
--World of Warcraft Manual, p. 174

It should be noted that the manual also treats the Horde as more or less the same entity as well.

At one time in Azeroth's past, the Horde was a force of evil, and the Alliance was a bastion of good. However, in today's war-torn Azeroth, such black and white distinctions are gone. Both factions are simply fighting to preserve their way of life in the wake of the Chaos War.
--World of Warcraft Manual, p. 14

The difference being that it says the Horde collapsed while the Alliance was merely failing. There's no indication anywhere that the Alliance collapsed completely and had to be reformed the way the Horde was.

[Unholyground]

Hid the identity of the new Lich King when Arthas was defeated.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Why are Alliance-leaning posters always magically forgetting that the most common result of any and all wars ever fought was forcing the defeated party to GTFO back home rather than killing them all or setting up a giant internment system for them?

To be fair, I don't think that was an option after the Second War, given Ner'zhul no-scoped the planet and the portal was closed, and simply allowing them independence, after their repeat attempts at genocide, probably wasn't tenable to the Alliance at the time.