Make Solo Dungeons Viable

[skajaki]

I think this is a great idea! As long as they only make it as an introductory version of an dungeon.

- Everyone is given the option to run through the instance in their own pace, exploring and experiencing the dungeon.
- Some sort of NPC, could follow along and help you out.
-- This NPC could tell you lore, show the way if you have a hard time navigating the dungeon, and give tips on bosses, both before and during bossfights.
--- Example, "Interrupt this spell now!".
-- The NPC could also help players finding their way to the dungeon journal.
- You could either solo que, or party que. Bots would fill up the remaining spots.
- The rewards should be lower than normal dungeons. So that you'll progress your gear through the different difficutlies.
-- This will be a 100% guarenteed clear due to bots, so rewarding the same gear as alternatives where it's not, isn't logical.
- Quests should be doable in this mode (non heroic ones)
-- Heroic quests are meant to be more difficult and reward higher ilvl items.
- The bots and NPC could be scaled so that the fastest way of beating the dungeon, would be about the same as a normal dungeon.
-- Normal dungeons will generally be faster, meaning that more players will choose to do quests in normal dungeons. The purpose of this mode shouldn't be that players choose it to do the fastest possible way to run a dungeon.

So basically this is a non-mandatory feature that most players would do maybe once or twice, just to experience the dungeons lore, get some gear early on, or complete some quest without having to wait for a group for x minutes.
Players who just like to run instances for the lore and exploration, could do this how many times they want.
And players who feel the need to be able to learn the basic encounter mechanics, could do that in their own pace, meaning that they have an easier time transistioning to the higher difficulties.
Also, there shouldn't be a extended version of this which doesn't reward loot but lets you try out different mechanics from higher difficulties.
Part of the process to learn the higher difficulty abilities is to play and fail the actual dungeons, you don't need a sandbox for that.


I also believe that they should change LFR to something like the above.
The purpose of LFR is to give everyone the possibility to experience the content that the developers put a lot of time into.
So first of all, they should automatically fill up the raid with bots after 10 minutes, making sure that it doesn't take any longer to get into an LFR.
This would make sure that old expansion raids, such as Uldir, doesn't take forever to queue up for, and not make the first interaction that players do when they want to play LFR, a negative one (I've had 1h+ queue as a DPS for Nya'lotha LFR).
Secondly, they should add an NPC that can tell you some lore, and help players understand mechanics.
It wouldn't be like the dungeon ones, where you could play in your own pace, since there's a lot of other players (assuming there are no bots in the raids). But they could let you run around with the NPC, after the last boss has been killed, and let it tell you all the lore (they would have to despawn all the trash mobs that might've been skipped after all the bosses of a wing is dead).
And during boss fights, the NPC could help players out with mechanics in a more educational language.

Example from personal experience where this would have been beneficial:
After 50 minutes queue I entered the last wing of Nya'lotha. Right from the moment I queued, i looked at this as a negative thing (even though I had the time).
It was my second time (two weeks ago, since I started playing BFA about a month ago), and I had on my previous run managed to beat Carapace.
The tank pulled the boss quite fast, and we wiped within a minute. A lot of players died by getting slammed by the tentacles.
Tank left, and we started looking for a new one. Me and some others asked everyone to read the tactics in the dungeon journal while we waited, in case they didn't know how the fight worked. After 10 minutes, we got another tank, we asked if everyone had read the tactics, and understood the fight, and no one said "no". We wiped again, the same way as in the previous attempt, and I then asked if people would like me to explain the fight, which they did. I explained that you need to avoid the tentacles and DPS the tumors on the tentacles afterwards, and repeat until P2 starts, and then briefly how P2 och P3 worked.
We beat the encounter with ease this next pull.
So why is that? Well we could argue that some people didn't read the encounter journal, and that's probably the case for some of the players, but assuming that they did, they still might not have understood how the fight worked. We also have to remember that this is LFR, and most players who run these raids every week are unexperienced raid players, who are there for the loot or for the sake of seeing the encounters. So, how easy is the mechanics to understand when you read about them in the encounter journal? For someone who doesn't raid a lot, not that easy.
Having an NPC that would yell out; "Avoid the tentacles! You will die if you stand in the shadow!", and "Kill the tumors on the tentacles", during the fight, would help tremendously. It's a language that everyone understands, and they could even have the NPC, on demand, explaining the fight before it starts, in a understandable language.

I believe that if this was implemented in one way or another, not only would it be easier for people to learn and clear the encounters, but it would also make them more fun! Which might lead to more people wanting to play the higher difficulties of the raid in the end.

[SkagenRora]

Then go play something else, fuck outta here with turning the game completely soloable
lets be able to do raids with bots too!
anything to stop the T O X I C players.

Why are you so gainst the idea tho? Why not just give people the "option" to play the way they want?

[Sámsa]

This is among the worst ideas I have read so far. Go play any solo Adventure Game. I can recommend Baldurs Gate.

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Why are you so gainst the idea tho? Why not just give people the "option" to play the way they want?

Because this is an MMO and such options will always have consequences for every player due to balancing and so on

[Craaazyyy]

People want to remove the stress of toxic people But still want to progress their gear.

Also, some people like to just be able to "do" things without a lot of set up or queue times.

ouuuuuuuuuuuh muh toxic people

[Reyuna]

Absolutely terrible idea.This is an MMO not a single player game.

You don't give a damn about the people you play with. They are just tools, a means to an end.

[SkagenRora]

This is among the worst ideas I have read so far. Go play any solo Adventure Game. I can recommend Baldurs Gate.

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Because this is an MMO and such options will always have consequences for every player due to balancing and so on

If people want to play solo.. Why not just let them? the people who genuinely want to do group content as a group (and dosen't just group up because they have to) will still group up.

[Sámsa]

If people want to play solo.. Why not just let them? the people who genuinely want to do group content as a group (and dosen't just group up because they have to) will still group up.

Because it is not that easy. It is not a simple question of „if they want let them“.
If you enable this as a Real feature you have to balance around it.

Solo features like Visions or Torgast are designed for solo play. But dungeons or raids at not.

Class A is better than class B in soloing. So Class B gets buffed or A gets nerfed and that has ramifications for every other part of the game.

And like someone said before solo will become the default for most people that at doing PUGs now.
So their has to be an incentive for group play. „Why can I not get the same XX when doing content solo?“.. and we go full circle.

[Redroniksre]

Honestly so long as you can queue for it to me that means it is solo friendly enough. To me as long as the gate of entry does not force you to be at the whim of other players, then it should be fine for most people. LFR and LFD right now you do not need to really communicate (unless in important roles) only need to be able to listen, which should be a skill everyone has.

[Nite92]

Have you met people in WoW? Love the game, hate the players.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with the grouping system. The comment I replied to was complaining about the system.

[Nite92]

Not true. Look at visions, many group up for them while they could be running them solo.

I did not say, that nobody would ever group. I just said that way fewer would group. Grouping in visions is done for the benefits it provides, specifically to not wipe if you die.

[Lefrog]

If you cannot offer suggestions, then at least tell us what exactly pains your ass? Is it being matched with starngers? Play with friends. You don't have friends and are socially awkward. Or your RL does not allow to be guilded? Sorry..that is in my book a "you" problem.

I think it's pretty obvious what an un~fun dungeon run looks like. 4 strangers, takes waaay longer, wipes, no gear drops so it was all for naught, tank leaves halfway through so a lot of time is spent waiting at your screen (at least with low dps you aren't as bored because you're pressing buttons)

Being in a guild with capable and fun players with a tank, healer, and 2 other dps available when you are shouldn't be a prerequisite to having fun. That is not a "me" problem.

Would it be so bad to fix some of the un-fun issues? A decade ago, I would have argued game limitations, but with torghast and visions it's clear they have the code to scale things. The only reason not to make M+15 doable with a healer guildie and RL dps friend should be balance concerns.

I argue that since comps have always mattered and balance has never been perfect at the high difficulty levels, that you might as well spend the time to scale everything and just design for a proper 5-mans to be more efficient, with significantly less risk of failure, especially the more challenging the content gets. If you doing anything under a +10, a group of competent players should be able to wreck it regardless of group size and composition. This applies to solo as well. The worst that can happen is a bunch a high geared mythic players can end up soloing +15s...not exactly game breaking.

[Eapoe]

I think it's pretty obvious what an un~fun dungeon run looks like. 4 strangers, takes waaay longer, wipes, no gear drops so it was all for naught, tank leaves halfway through so a lot of time is spent waiting at your screen (at least with low dps you aren't as bored because you're pressing buttons)

Being in a guild with capable and fun players with a tank, healer, and 2 other dps available when you are shouldn't be a prerequisite to having fun. That is not a "me" problem.

Would it be so bad to fix some of the un-fun issues? A decade ago, I would have argued game limitations, but with torghast and visions it's clear they have the code to scale things. The only reason not to make M+15 doable with a healer guildie and RL dps friend should be balance concerns.

I argue that since comps have always mattered and balance has never been perfect at the high difficulty levels, that you might as well spend the time to scale everything and just design for a proper 5-mans to be more efficient, with significantly less risk of failure, especially the more challenging the content gets. If you doing anything under a +10, a group of competent players should be able to wreck it regardless of group size and composition. This applies to solo as well. The worst that can happen is a bunch a high geared mythic players can end up soloing +15s...not exactly game breaking.

What a load of shit.

[skajaki]

If people want to play solo.. Why not just let them? the people who genuinely want to do group content as a group (and dosen't just group up because they have to) will still group up.

True.

But part of the challenge is to do it as a group. Removing that requirement will make it much easier for some players, especially if they're of a class and specc that works well in solo content. There's a reason why Torghast anima powers are class based, and not specc based; balance.
And enabling solo dungeon as a just as viable gear progression method as group dungeons, would mean that they would have to try to balance every specc in that context.
They have already seperated pvp talents from pve talents, so that they can try to balance PvE first hand, and then give stronger / weaker PvP talents to speccs that need them.
Now, they could balance solo dungeons by only changing the bots and/or enemy health/dmg, depending on what speccs that are present in the dungeon. But this will be a ton of extra work, and for what exactly? Giving players the possibility to progress their gear by themselves in group intended content?
Though, if they didn't make gear progression as viable as in group dungeons, balance wouldn't be a problem, because those who need the better gear, will always choose to do the more beneficial one, and whether class X could get better gear than class Y in that content, wouldn't matter that much, since as soon as you stepped in to a group dungeon, both of them would be able to get better gear.
So I'm all for solo dungeons, as long as it's not as viable as group dungeons when it comes to gear progression.

And for everyone saying that it doesn't matter what gear other people have, and that you just want to be able to progress your gear. Well, I'm sorry but it does matter.
Sure, you might not care what gear someone else is able to get, but when it comes to the content where high iLvl gear is actually needed (raids, rated-pvp and mythic+), it might matter on whether you get a spot or not.
And what's interesting is that all the content that requires high ilvl gear is group content, so why do even solo players want the gear required to do group content, if they despise group content? Becuase it's nice to have a high ilvl? Sure, it makes a lot of the content in the game easier, but you don't actually need it to play or experience the game.

[Big Thanks]

How in the hell do you make "grouping fun". If it spoils your day to be in a guild, run 5 mans with guildmates or raids with friends...how in the hell do you make it "fun"?

Can you folks throw out something more than these daft common place phrases? Want a jester with you in the group who tells jokes? Sorry (actually not) devs should be allowed to look at demands like these and just crumple them up and discard.

If you cannot offer suggestions, then at least tell us what exactly pains your ass? Is it being matched with starngers? Play with friends. You don't have friends and are socially awkward. Or your RL does not allow to be guilded? Sorry..that is in my book a "you" problem.

I admit i laughed really hard at your "jester" remark. that was pretty good

Im not a big fan of this idea myself and think is a step in the wrong direction of the genre

What a game can do, and im actually a big fan of this, is to support random player encounter socialization.
But this is mostly used for the leveling experience.

Endgame solo content for less chance of failure...humm...kinda dangerous for the genre
But, lol, what am i talking about, Horrific Visions is exactly this. So it already exists ingame...and is also in Shadowlands in the form of Torghast.

[Azerate]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind this. I played FF14 and that system is a non factor. It would only be available for the lowest difficulty dungeons probably anyway, and paradoxically that system is harder for an average casual because once you die, your party wipes, but it's there for those allergic to other players. Much like LFR, I don't think "solo dungeons" would in any way impact my gameplay experience, so whatever. Just put the island expedition bots there to play with a person, keep it normal mode only and allow completion of quests maybe.

[Lei]

I think it's pretty obvious what an un~fun dungeon run looks like. 4 strangers, takes waaay longer, wipes, no gear drops so it was all for naught, tank leaves halfway through so a lot of time is spent waiting at your screen (at least with low dps you aren't as bored because you're pressing buttons)

Hold on, is this NORMAL dungeon mode you're talking about? Wipes, leaves etc?
I mean if soloing dungeons were a thing it would be normal only, right? It's not like you would solo mythic or mythic pluses. Heroics too.
And normal and heroic stops mattering right after you finished them for whatever story quest you have anyways, so it's not really a thing. Anything above requires a coordinated group. So if you want to participate, be coordinated. Or go raid. Or LFR.

I wouldn't mind allowing peeps to solo NORMAL dungeons. And let people complete their zone story/profession quests there. But anything above normal? Nope.

[mysticx]

Endgame solo content for less chance of failure...humm...kinda dangerous for the genre
But, lol, what am i talking about, Horrific Visions is exactly this. So it already exists ingame...and is also in Shadowlands in the form of Torghast.

It's not about less chance of failure, it's about doing dungeons for the few things that require them (Questlines mostly, world content surpasses normal and heroic 5-man loot *really* quickly, anyway), without miles-long queues and the "Gogogogogo!"-mentality meaning that any lore in the dungeons is missed in a blur of rampaging through the place at top speed.

Having NPCs along would also lead to more opportunity for storytelling, with the NPCs reacting to things inside the dungeon as you progress, and since the NPCs aren't there in the other modes of the dungeon, their absence would smooth out the pace of dungeon runs by not having the RP dialogue in there (I still have nightmares of the CoT-heroics, where the RP got really old after the first dozen runs), which seems to me like a win-win situation.

[Lei]

It's not about less chance of failure, it's about doing dungeons for the few things that require them (Questlines mostly, world content surpasses normal and heroic 5-man loot *really* quickly, anyway), without miles-long queues and the "Gogogogogo!"-mentality meaning that any lore in the dungeons is missed in a blur of rampaging through the place at top speed.

Having NPCs along would also lead to more opportunity for storytelling, with the NPCs reacting to things inside the dungeon as you progress, and since the NPCs aren't there in the other modes of the dungeon, their absence would smooth out the pace of dungeon runs by not having the RP dialogue in there (I still have nightmares of the CoT-heroics, where the RP got really old after the first dozen runs), which seems to me like a win-win situation.

I could imagine a learning mode in normal. NPCs would yell out boss mechanics, or when the player makes a big mistake, briefly tell the tactics. just to familiarize nervous people. Leadng them from the start to end. Etc.

I haven't queued for a single dungeon since... ugh. Legion. First, i don't care, I'm barely subbed for a couple of months in an expansion nowadays, but that's just one aspect. My inner gps is so shit, I got lost in Hellfire Citadel the other day while soloed it. Didn't help that the doors were locked because of the famous door lock bug. But my point is, dungeons are getting darker and darker and maze-y and maze-y. Multifloor dungeons are the worst for me.
People come out of betas with the 100% knowledge of places, expecting others to be the same, while others haven't even seen the place once, let alone knowing the gimmicks.

[SkagenRora]

True.

But part of the challenge is to do it as a group. Removing that requirement will make it much easier for some players, especially if they're of a class and specc that works well in solo content. There's a reason why Torghast anima powers are class based, and not specc based; balance.
And enabling solo dungeon as a just as viable gear progression method as group dungeons, would mean that they would have to try to balance every specc in that context.
They have already seperated pvp talents from pve talents, so that they can try to balance PvE first hand, and then give stronger / weaker PvP talents to speccs that need them.
Now, they could balance solo dungeons by only changing the bots and/or enemy health/dmg, depending on what speccs that are present in the dungeon. But this will be a ton of extra work, and for what exactly? Giving players the possibility to progress their gear by themselves in group intended content?
Though, if they didn't make gear progression as viable as in group dungeons, balance wouldn't be a problem, because those who need the better gear, will always choose to do the more beneficial one, and whether class X could get better gear than class Y in that content, wouldn't matter that much, since as soon as you stepped in to a group dungeon, both of them would be able to get better gear.
So I'm all for solo dungeons, as long as it's not as viable as group dungeons when it comes to gear progression.

And for everyone saying that it doesn't matter what gear other people have, and that you just want to be able to progress your gear. Well, I'm sorry but it does matter.
Sure, you might not care what gear someone else is able to get, but when it comes to the content where high iLvl gear is actually needed (raids, rated-pvp and mythic+), it might matter on whether you get a spot or not.
And what's interesting is that all the content that requires high ilvl gear is group content, so why do even solo players want the gear required to do group content, if they despise group content? Becuase it's nice to have a high ilvl? Sure, it makes a lot of the content in the game easier, but you don't actually need it to play or experience the game.

then just don't balance it? If you don't play a class that's good at soloing.. tough luck, group play is there for them.

You don't see blizz balancing bosses around the certain people who manages to solo current things as blood dk.

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How in the hell do you make "grouping fun". If it spoils your day to be in a guild, run 5 mans with guildmates or raids with friends...how in the hell do you make it "fun"?

Can you folks throw out something more than these daft common place phrases? Want a jester with you in the group who tells jokes? Sorry (actually not) devs should be allowed to look at demands like these and just crumple them up and discard.

If you cannot offer suggestions, then at least tell us what exactly pains your ass? Is it being matched with starngers? Play with friends. You don't have friends and are socially awkward. Or your RL does not allow to be guilded? Sorry..that is in my book a "you" problem.

I'm not in a guild, and i only pop in and out of the game every now and then.

If you don't know what an "Un-fun", "Tedious" or "annoying" group run looks like.. then /clap i guess you have been able to only played with good/skilled people for the past 15 years.

[Saltysquidoon]

I maintain that it is possible to run every dungeon in the game solo there is nothing stopping you.

If you want to run current content. Well too bad? Dungeons are 5 man group content, that is their stated purpose and what they are designed around. Not only is there essentially no barrier to entry at this point because lfd has existed for years, but the game now has a wealth of content for people who can't be bothered to queue up lfd, hell world quests offer better rewards then heroic dungeons anyway.

As consistently having trouble clearing content in lfd groups. That's simply an l2p issue, I'm sorry but it is, lfd content is basically designed to be impossible to fail at this point. If your groups are consistently failing the problem is probably you.