Make Solo Dungeons Viable

[Sarethion]

But Cata heroics and WoD PG showed us that average player is both surprisingly bad at the game and unwilling to improve. They'd rather just quit than overcome the challenge.

Then that kind of a player would just brute-force through the solo tutorial without getting the ranking to just complete his quest and then quit. Why is that bad? He gets what he wants - i.e. he can see the content and turn in his quest, other people get what they want - i.e. a higher chance at somewhat competent team-mates.

[Nite92]

Whats wrong with that? If people enjoy solo play more, why has group play to be incentivized?


That has a lot to with the grouping system. There was always a gogogogogogo crowd but ever since M+ random dungeons have become genuinely unfun fo me to play.



And that iteration od MMOs is dead now. The few ones that somehow survived are those MMOs with strong solo possibilities. Times have moved on boomer.

And one could really argue with your last sentence. The genre really took off with WoW and that was always a more solo orientated MMO compared with its predecessors.

Tbh, the gogogogo crowd is like a 1 in a 1000 problem if you are a normal tank. It is really unnoticeable if you are not super slow. And if you are learning, announce that at the start. I don't know if the number of dps pulling additional stuff intentionally is in the double digits of my 1000+ dungeons ranked in legion+bfa.
If every dungeon some tells you to ogogo, then you are the common denominator.

[Multitorix Davlen]

And that iteration od MMOs is dead now. The few ones that somehow survived are those MMOs with strong solo possibilities. Times have moved on boomer.

And one could really argue with your last sentence. The genre really took off with WoW and that was always a more solo orientated MMO compared with its predecessors.

yikes getting called boomer despite being born in the 90's.

It had more solo friendly things in comparison to its predecessors, yes. BUT revisiting classic there are SO many different quests that absolutely required a group because of how unfair it was. It STILL promoted finding people to make friends, to group up. The iteration of MMO's is certainly NOT dead considering you STILL have to group up for things. Making it so you DO NOT HAVE TO find people to make groups/friends then makes the genre is dead and no longer a MMORPG. It makes it a SINGLE PLAYER GAME.

- - - Updated - - -

One of the problems that "When it (The MMORPG genre) took off" is a good 20 years ago, gaming and the players have changed immensely since then, i'm pretty sure that is the cause of the gradual shift to solo-content we have seen so far, and given that, don't see the problem in having normal-mode (Not heroic, let alone mythic) of dungeons soloable so people can get dungeon quests done and do the dungeons at a less frantic pace to take in the lore and environment there, as far as loot goes, normal dungeons are obsolete in the first few hours at level cap, anyway...

I'd argue that I haven't seen that shift outside of a small vocal minority. I have no hard data to back this up, but are the majority of players actually fine with having a solo-able normal mode? We cant use the data here cause its just not indicative of the player base as a whole, despite people being hyperbolic about it.

[ryanmahaffe]

Boy I am glad that its Blizzard who decide what their game is going to look like, and not you people with your 100 year old MMORPG-definition.

What was suggested was an added option, not a complete removal of the ability to choose to queue with human players. There is a clear difference. And they have added the technology already in testing for the Shadowlands intro, so there you have it.

They could have added it for making normal mode dungeons soloable for story purposes, which is as far as I would personally accept.

"100 year old mmorpg definition"
Is it really so hard for you to just interact with other players, socializing in this fake world? Adding the option would only inflate que times and further separate the playerbase.

[mysticx]

yikes getting called boomer despite being born in the 90's.

It had more solo friendly things in comparison to its predecessors, yes. BUT revisiting classic there are SO many different quests that absolutely required a group because of how unfair it was. It STILL promoted finding people to make friends, to group up. The iteration of MMO's is certainly NOT dead considering you STILL have to group up for things. Making it so you DO NOT HAVE TO find people to make groups/friends then makes the genre is dead and no longer a MMORPG. It makes it a SINGLE PLAYER GAME.

- - - Updated - - -



I'd argue that I haven't seen that shift outside of a small vocal minority. I have no hard data to back this up, but are the majority of players actually fine with having a solo-able normal mode? We cant use the data here cause its just not indicative of the player base as a whole, despite people being hyperbolic about it.

People mostly skipped those group-quests though, even in the much-lauded Classic days, those quests were deemed more trouble than they're worth, even in later expansions group quests were mostly ignored, except for those arena-things in BC, Wrath and Cataclysm (Fight a few minibosses in a row, those gave weapons and thus saw semi-regular groups)

You haven't seen the shift to solo-content? You overlooked all the ways to gear up beyond heroics and raids (Soloable invasions and world quests give better loot than LfR), just missed the "You can group, but also do it solo"-part of visions and the upcoming Torghast? That's not the work of a vocal minority, that's Blizzard putting resources into solo content because... well, they'll never tell us straight, but there's money behind it.

Look at the MMORPG-genre in general, it's a fraction of the size it used to be in the Wrath-days, a few games fighting over what would be called "leftovers" back then, and now games are catering more and more to solo-players, FF14 has NPC-parties to run dungeons with, and Blizz are testing the waters for the same with that dungeon at the end of the newbie-area, it's only a matter of time until we have dungeon runs with NPCs too.

[chiddie]

I understand why people complain about group content and want to solo, but solo dungeons are even less fun. FF has a solo dungeon system and it is incredibly boring because you know you're there having to make up for shit AI, imo the reason WoW group content isnt fun is because the community isnt fun, its devolved into an anti social swamp of assholes who only want to speak when its time to criticize or attack other players.

I lvled dungeons from 20-100 and i can count on one hand how many pleasant conversations i had during dungeons, and those conversations made the experience fun.

Remove the stupid timers from m+ and community will be nice again.

[chiddie]

Tbh, the gogogogo crowd is like a 1 in a 1000 problem if you are a normal tank. It is really unnoticeable if you are not super slow. And if you are learning, announce that at the start. I don't know if the number of dps pulling additional stuff intentionally is in the double digits of my 1000+ dungeons ranked in legion+bfa.
If every dungeon some tells you to ogogo, then you are the common denominator.

It’s not only for the tank. The gogogo leads to:
- puggers searching for vastly overgeared people to do keys. Every time dps have to struggle not to be declined, yesterday I spent 40 minutes trying to do a +7 with a 451 enha shaman, always declined.
- puggers searching for specific classes because of meta and mdi
- less tanks overall because the amount of preparation required is far superior to dps and healers with zero additional rewards apart from having shorter wait times
- people with few spare time choosing to heal or tank instead of dpsing even if they would like to dps because of less waiting time
- people leave keys after the first wipe(s) because they feel they won’t make it in time so they’re wasting time
-and so on

We all know timers are the easiest and laziest way dev side to somehow measure skill, but if they want M+ to continue to be popular they have to think about something else. Starting for example to add bonuses if you beat the timers (for example EVERYONE receiving a fokkin object in the end, never understood the logic behind the chance of ending the dungeon with nothing in your pocket) instead of penalties if you fail (no key depletion?) it would be a first step in the right direction.

[Syegfryed]

I would like solo dungeons too, but not for gearing, but for the quests that lead into them, a lot more story can be told (and comprehended) when players aren’t running through the place like a pack of rabid dogs.

also, transmog runs, alt gearing, it don't need to give mythic gear

[Eapoe]

People mostly skipped those group-quests though, even in the much-lauded Classic days, those quests were deemed more trouble than they're worth, even in later expansions group quests were mostly ignored, except for those arena-things in BC, Wrath and Cataclysm (Fight a few minibosses in a row, those gave weapons and thus saw semi-regular groups)

You haven't seen the shift to solo-content? You overlooked all the ways to gear up beyond heroics and raids (Soloable invasions and world quests give better loot than LfR), just missed the "You can group, but also do it solo"-part of visions and the upcoming Torghast? That's not the work of a vocal minority, that's Blizzard putting resources into solo content because... well, they'll never tell us straight, but there's money behind it.

Look at the MMORPG-genre in general, it's a fraction of the size it used to be in the Wrath-days, a few games fighting over what would be called "leftovers" back then, and now games are catering more and more to solo-players, FF14 has NPC-parties to run dungeons with, and Blizz are testing the waters for the same with that dungeon at the end of the newbie-area, it's only a matter of time until we have dungeon runs with NPCs too.

Yep, it’s just as obvious as Blizzard getting ready to introduce Necromancers and Tinkerers. As obvious as Blizzard being dead after the last 2-3 expansions.

[Eapoe]

If you disagree with someone, try to counter the persons arguments instead of making up your own that nobody in the thread has even mentioned.

That was my counter argument. Person A states it’s obvious Blizzard is going that way, Person B then points out that it’s not, albeit in a sarcastic way.
Pretty sure I didn’t make up any argument, I responded to the post on topic.
So, please try again when acting high and mighty.

[Eapoe]

No you went off-topic and threw in some hyperboles at the end of it, thats something you usually do when you're out of arguments.

The person literally stated it’s obvious Blizzard is going in that direction. My response, which you are now showing ignorance of, clearly stayed on topic by showing the person is very possibly wrong by making assumptions of how something is obvious.
There was no hyperbole as I literally meant what I stated. So please think before you attack someone.

[kamuimac]

I understand why people complain about group content and want to solo, but solo dungeons are even less fun. FF has a solo dungeon system and it is incredibly boring because you know you're there having to make up for shit AI, imo the reason WoW group content isnt fun is because the community isnt fun, its devolved into an anti social swamp of assholes who only want to speak when its time to criticize or attack other players.

I lvled dungeons from 20-100 and i can count on one hand how many pleasant conversations i had during dungeons, and those conversations made the experience fun.

and yet main feature of expansion will be played mostly solo for hours on hours.

imagine how fun woudl be thoregast if you coudl take 4 npcs there with you - possibly develop them over time.

wasted potential due to lack of software that FF 14 already has

Blizzard is just behind times .

[crusadernero]

Blame the m+ & MDI scene with the beloved timer slapped onto it. Before m+ everyone who wanted to run dungeons were put into HC. Plenty of people to take from and the difficulty was nothing to speak of for the most part. In addition of this there was dungeon meta achivs and sometimes they had Challenge modes for cool gear.

Back before m+ the normal & HC part of the dungeon scene were filled with people. Even geared ppl ran it for rep, badges and more.

These days normal & HC dungeons means jack shit and is more or less useless. Might aswell remove HC dungeons at this point. Nothing you need from it. Keep normal for leveling.

The problem with the m+ scene is that its difficult to get a relevant run going and it often times create a toxic atmosphere between players. The general knowledge of a dungeon(what to pull, where to run, when to blow CDs++) can be vastly different. In a regular HC(before m+) everyone is more or less on the same page.

Top that off with the random chest after you have done your highest key(often times 10+), and those people also just dont give a shit about dungeons after doing 1 m+ each week. Add to the fact that there are no changes to dungeons over a xpac, they just boost ilevel on items.

If you find m+ dungeons to be generally bad now, i'd recommend more or less stop giving a shit about doing them. Clear it on normal/HC until you have "seen" the dungeons and only, ONLY do m+ if you find cool ppl to run with. Besides that, forget it excist. Im a tank and I never run pug m+ runs, never. Ironically enough I Pug alot of raids(Normal & HC), I find that to be a more pleasent experience.

I used to love the dungeon scene before, but its over for the most part. Blizzard is pushing dungeons to be a esport and that by large has ruined alot of relevant dungeon content.

[mysticx]

The person literally stated it’s obvious Blizzard is going in that direction. My response, which you are now showing ignorance of, clearly stayed on topic by showing the person is very possibly wrong by making assumptions of how something is obvious.
There was no hyperbole as I literally meant what I stated. So please think before you attack someone.

Which part of my post was "assumptions of how something is obvious"? I mentioned a shift to more solo-content, and then listed a bunch of ways in which said shift is taking place, or in the cases of world quests and visions, already *has* taken place, so what did i say that isn't grounded in commonly-known fact? Implying that there's a financial reason for Blizz doing it? That's hardly Sherlock Holmes-style deduction...

I don't see how throwing in two often-requested (But not even hinted at becoming a reality) classes that i didn't mention anywhere, are supposed to be a counter-argument to that.

[Kuja]

They could put the island expeditions AI bots to LFR queues that are 3+ hours long. Just adjust the IQ slider up and have them jump less. But they would give an unfair advantage, as they would know the mechanics of fights, while random people don't.

As for 5 mans, they can already be soloed up to heroic at least. Maybe even mythic 0, haven't tried. But soloing mythic + with bots seems like a bad idea. But at least I would get invited then, yay! Seems like ilvl is all that matters, even though I do 40% more damage than people with 25 ilvls more than I have.

[RemasteredClassic]

First they ban gold sellers so they can sell gold themselves, then they ban botters and bot makers so that they can do so themselves....it's only a matter of time.

[crusadernero]

First they ban gold sellers so they can sell gold themselves, then they ban botters and bot makers so that they can do so themselves....it's only a matter of time.

now you are onto something. Since they banned gold sellers and started selling gold themself(wow token), then can now introduce AI to buy. Imagine the possibilites!

For 10 dollars you get AIs that clears HC dungeons for you. For 60 dollars you get a HC raid clear. You can pay for 1 AI, 4 AIs or a full raid. Every couple of months you get a bundle deal. "Buy 5 AIs today, get 4 for free!"

[RemasteredClassic]

now you are onto something. Since they banned gold sellers and started selling gold themself(wow token), then can now introduce AI to buy. Imagine the possibilites!

For 10 dollars you get AIs that clears HC dungeons for you. For 60 dollars you get a HC raid clear. You can pay for 1 AI, 4 AIs or a full raid. Every couple of months you get a bundle deal. "Buy 5 AIs today, get 4 for free!"

And they'll let players sell them to each other for gold so those who cannot afford to buy AI for real money from Blizz can farm a few million gold to buy an AI with in-game currency from another player....this is how they are going to make us all pay a sub with money or play without the cool AI...we'll end up paying for both in the end lol...Blizz wins as the best money milking gaming company of the century without looking like a pay to win game...

Seriously though, I would pay for an AI that would let me replace it with my own toon so I could level two toons at once. The legendary type of AI...they will have green, blue, purple and orange AI, buy and sell, but never trade.

[Eapoe]

Which part of my post was "assumptions of how something is obvious"? I mentioned a shift to more solo-content, and then listed a bunch of ways in which said shift is taking place, or in the cases of world quests and visions, already *has* taken place, so what did i say that isn't grounded in commonly-known fact? Implying that there's a financial reason for Blizz doing it? That's hardly Sherlock Holmes-style deduction...

I don't see how throwing in two often-requested (But not even hinted at becoming a reality) classes that i didn't mention anywhere, are supposed to be a counter-argument to that.

Go back and read your own post. You obviously are stating that it’s something that’s going to happen as direct quotes from your statement are “Blizzard are testing the waters,” and “it’s only a matter of time before we have dungeon runs with NPCs.”
So you are making a statement that it’s obviously going this direction, to which my statement showed other examples of people making a point about something being obvious that hasn’t happened.
Not sure why you and the other people are having such a hissy fit over my response. It’s actually pretty funny when people try to assert something is going to happen and then have examples of something in the past that counters it.
I’m not even stating it won’t happen in the future as everything is possible, but asserting, or implying thru subtle wording, that something is going to actually happen is false.
How many mmorpg games could potentially benefit from NPC ran dungeons for a solo player versus how many that actually have it? On top of that how many Blizzard games have solo experiences that emulate full party groups?
Back to your main question, your statement is in a thread about solo dungeons and has statements that shows shifts towards solo play financial gain (which also isn’t proven and could be a loss as the trend seems to be people leaving the less social the game becomes), testing the waters with Torghast (which again doesn’t have helpful NPCs unless I’m behind on the updates which I might be), and things like “it’s only a matter of time.”
Blizzard has always had solo content but alluding to (which you did) a certainty that it will happen with solo dungeons in a thread about bots playing with the players is the direct response I gave you.

Updating because I just read about friendly NPCs in IEs.

[FelPlague]

Did Op create like 40 accounts and then get banned on all of them?
https://i.imgur.com/PXthN6w.png
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https://i.imgur.com/8yB6c7W.png
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its pretty fucking hilarious...'


but OT, nah dungerons should not be soloable, only should when you get to the point you are super duper geared. Few instanced content should be soloable, as that opens stuff for bots, the stuff that is solo able instanced should be well stuff like visions and torghast, where you cant really bot it.